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Strange NW A330 Takeoff At AMS Today  
User currently offlineCarlos1979 From Canada, joined Dec 2003, 108 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 16297 times:

I was doing some spotting at AMS today. Around 13:45 an NW A330 took off from runway 24. The strange thing is that the landing gear did not retract. I watched the plane climb until it disappeared into a distant (at least 3 miles from the rotation point and a good couple of thousand feet up) and the landing gear remained down......wondering if this is an unusual occurrence or if its something not out of the ordinary for the 330......any feedback would be appreciated.

cheers

Carlos

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlywrite From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2009, 194 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 16302 times:
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I saw this once on a Malaysian A330 taking off from Manchester (was on loan to another carrier I believe). Anyway, I watched it depart as far as I could see, and the gear did not come up.

User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 16243 times:

It's for cooling down the breaks of the landing gear.


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User currently offlineAirKas1 From Netherlands, joined Dec 2003, 3983 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 16259 times:

Maybe the they were cooling something, like brakes?

User currently offlineSevenheavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1156 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 16229 times:

This is usually to allow the brakes to cool before gear retraction.

If the aircraft has "hot" brakes on take off - through excessive use of brakes during taxi, or even on landing if the turn was short the crew will leave the gear down for longer than usual during the intial climb to allow the airflow to cool down the brakes before they retract the gear.

Often the crew will announce this to the passengers in case any get concerned by the increased noise.



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User currently offlineCarlos1979 From Canada, joined Dec 2003, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 16123 times:

Thanks! Now that you mention it, i seem to recall reading about a similar situation not too long ago.

User currently offlineTzadik From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 15100 times:

Also if the brake temperature monitering system is inop most MEL procedures might call for the gear remaining down for a certain amount of time.

User currently offlineAvroArrow From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 1045 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 14919 times:

Saw this same thing at YYZ a few weeks back with a UA A320, they delayed takeoff by almost 20 minutes holding short of 05. And when they did takeoff the gear stayed down until after they disappeared above the clouds. All because of hot brakes (according to the conversation on the scanner). Certainly not an everyday occurrence but apparently necessary from time to time.


Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
User currently offlineJalapeno From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 14550 times:

Funny thing....

I saw the same thing here at DFW when a Lufthansa A340 took off. It took off to the north, and I watched it fly all the way out past Lewisville with the gear remaining down. I thought they were gonna turn around and come back.

But the hot breaks thing explains that - THANKS!


User currently onlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4472 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 14090 times:



Quoting Jalapeno (Reply 8):
But the hot breaks thing explains that

Is that like a toasted Subway sandwich, or a Hooters girl on her 'break' ?



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineJokestar From Australia, joined Apr 2008, 123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 13899 times:

Yeh, i saw the exact same thing happen to an Aerolineas Argentinas A340-200 when it took off from my home airport of Sydney Bound for Auckland and Buenos Aires. I watched it until it disappeared and the landing gear were never retracted. I was waiting for it to come back. But it didnt.

All i could think of was. Another Aerolineas fault....


User currently offlineBoeingluvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 12998 times:

I've only ever seen this on A330's... Is it an issue with that particular airplane above others?

User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2699 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 12095 times:



Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 11):
Is it an issue with that particular airplane above others?

I saw this procedure very very often with Alia's L 1011s taking off from FRA. I had the feeling they had different operation manuals as other Tristar operators.

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User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3503 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11965 times:

When I flew AMS-SEA on NW in 2005, our A333 actually re-extended the landing gear during climbout over the sea because the brakes weren't cooling off fast enough. Is this common at AMS? Lots of heavies with full loads...


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User currently offlineCX flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6598 posts, RR: 55
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 11691 times:

This can also happen if one of the brakes are not working for one of the wheels. Keeping the gear down allows the wheels to spin down before the gear is retracted, since twisting a gear sideways into the gear well during retraction while a wheel is spinning fast puts enormous strain on the gear.

User currently offlineUPSMD11 From United States of America, joined May 2003, 814 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 9214 times:
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Flying out of XNA to MEM a few weeks ago we had this same issue on our NW CR2. The gear stayed down until we were well over 10000F. I was quite surprised but not sure if it was a faulty sensor or a hard landing and braking that caused it.

John


User currently offlineDH106 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 626 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8903 times:

Interesting...
Obviously in these cases the brakes are considered too hot to be retracted safely, but presumably they're still cool enough to be able to perform to full RTO certification standards or the take off wouldn't be allowed?



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User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3908 posts, RR: 27
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8109 times:

UPSMD11 - you're not even supposed to take off with "hot" break temps on the CRJ200. Depending on weight and other variables, if your brake temps go into the "white" or "red" zone with their corresponding number, there would be a certain waiting time to cool the breaks on the ground. And then when you eventually take off, there is no procedure to cool them in the air. So... your Pinnacle pilots were likely having some other issue.

Regarding the OP - I had this happen on a NWA 330 once. It sounded very routine and the crew did a nice job explaining the situation.

[Edited 2009-08-18 06:42:35]

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12138 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7902 times:

For most airplanes with steel brakes, they are considered hot at 500 C and above, and in the cautionary range at around 400 C. I don't know what the temp ranges are for carbon brakes. But, why would you TO with brakes at or near the cautionary range? A RTO would blow tires, or at least melt the tire fuse plugs so they deflate.

User currently offlineTzadik From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7902 times:



Quoting UPSMD11 (Reply 15):

that is what happens when the MLG Overheat loops are not working. The MEL procedure calla for the gear to be down for ten mins. You thought the 200. Climbed poorly. Try it nearly full in the summer with the gear down at 17000ft.


User currently offlineYZFOO7F From Canada, joined May 2005, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7847 times:



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 13):
When I flew AMS-SEA on NW in 2005, our A333 actually re-extended the landing gear during climbout over the sea because the brakes weren't cooling off fast enough. Is this common at AMS? Lots of heavies with full loads...

Sort of off topic a bit, but is there a maximum gear down speed? I assume there would be for most aircraft. Does anyone know what it is for the A330?



Promise me you'll always leave the ground
User currently offlineQantas744ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1288 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6835 times:

Quote:
Sort of off topic a bit, but is there a maximum gear down speed? I assume there would be for most aircraft. Does anyone know what it is for the A330?


A330 Maximum Gear Down Speeds

Landing gear extended (VLE) 250 kt / 0.55M

Landing gear operation (ext and retract) (VLO) 250 kt / 0.55M

Gravity extension (VLE, VLO) 200 kt

Note: different limitations apply for gear down dispatch (FCOM 2
“Special Operations”)

Maximum Altitude at which gear may be extended 21,000'

Leo

[Edited 2009-08-18 07:28:45]

[Edited 2009-08-18 07:29:40]

[Edited 2009-08-18 07:30:10]

[Edited 2009-08-18 07:30:28]


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User currently offlineYZFOO7F From Canada, joined May 2005, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5743 times:



Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 21):

Thanks Leo.

What would be the detriment of putting the gear down above 21,000 feet? Not like you'd ever need to, but if say your speed was below 250 kts at a high altitude, what effect does it have when the gear is lowered?



Promise me you'll always leave the ground
User currently offlineJSquared From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5022 times:

Perhaps the answer is obvious, but what are the potential problems associated with retracting gear with overheated brakes? Have there been any accidents because of it?

User currently offline757ops From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4504 times:

I have seen this many times at LHR when CY used to bring in the A310 on evening turnarounds

25 Kappel : I had this same thing with an IB MD88 climbing out from ALC. It was a bit disconcerting at the time, as I was not aware of the brake temp issue. It w
26 PSU.DTW.SCE : Last year same thing happened on a NW A320 out of DEN, going to MSP. They left the gear down after departure, and stayed below 10,000 ft. The crew mad
27 Affirmative : What's interesting is that I see quite often planes taking off and the main gear retracting normally but the nose gear stays down for a considerable p
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