Cory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2686 posts, RR: 6 Reply 1, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5483 times:
I hate to sound ignorant, and my apologies in advance for coming across that way, but is traffic at GSO really that heavy that the airport needed a second main runway? We're not exactly talking about ORD or EWR...
Gsoflyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1090 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5308 times:
Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 1): I hate to sound ignorant, and my apologies in advance for coming across that way, but is traffic at GSO really that heavy that the airport needed a second main runway? We're not exactly talking about ORD or EWR...
When all this was planned, probably. There were more cargo carriers and about 50 flights an hours in and out of the airport.
Now, not so much since passenger flights have dropped by about 50 per day (and losing another 9 soon), Tradewinds has shut down in Greensboro and so on and on and on.
Gsoflyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1090 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4912 times:
US Airways dropping all 6 flights to LGA. That leaves US Airways serving 3 cities on 13 flights from 5 gates.
Allegiant drops PIE when other markets don't drop it and actually pick up frequencies.
Allegiant drops 1 Sanford flight.
Delta drops MSP.
Delta drops 1 CVG flight
Delta drops 1 DTW flight
Continental dropped CLE earlier this year.
No Tradewinds cargo flights from GSO anymore.
Below 60 departures per day from GSO for the first time in my lifetime. At 9/11 it was at 120. When i was in college in the 90s it was at 150. No mainline flights after September on a legacy carrier.
Why do we have a passenger terminal anymore? Why did they spend millions to expand the north concourse? The flights could be served by the South Concourse alone now.
Bet heavily on Delta reinstating GSO-LGA, most likely at 4-5x daily on CRJs. Still a net loss of flights, but not a total wash.
I believe DL has dropped MEM down to 1x daily now though.
And it's not fun to see how GSO has fallen since my freshman year in college. Back then, it was 8-9x MD-80s to Atlanta. The next two months, I'm flying back to GSO and on GSO-ATL each time, it's 8-9x CRJ instead, with no mainline. When I went to Wake 5 years ago this week, there was that ATL service, 5-6x CVG (one MD-80), 3-4x LGA, 2x DFW (my first flight in college was actually a DL CRJ on GSO-DFW in Sept '04, a month before that flight ended) and 1-2x MCO.
Spring freshman/sophomore year (I forget which one) was the busiest - about 7-8x mainline to ATL, 5x to CVG (including a 737-200), 2x BOS, 3x LGA, 2x FLL, 4x MCO, 1x TPA and 3x JFK (all those on RJs) - was around a 30 flight operation, all crammed into 2 gates (47/49). At that time, the airport was bustling - DL had 30 flights out of 2 gates, US had 9x CLT, 7x PHL, 7x LGA, 4x PIT, 4x BWI (31 flights) out of 5 gates - a bit of overkill, but efficient; UA had 8 flights out of 2 gates (4x to IAD/ORD, including 2-3 mainline to ORD) and AA having 3 flights to DFW on the South Concourse - about 70 flights out of 10 gates is pretty respectable. Up on the North Concourse, CO had 8-9 RJs to EWR/IAH (the occasional 737 too), NW had 4x to DTW (3 on DC-9s!), 1x MSP and 1x MEM, and DH had 8x IAD, 1x MCO for 24 flights out of 6 gates - not the most efficient use of space, but logistically CO and NW each needed 2 gates, DH needed one, leaving one gate open. When the plan was put ahead to expand the concourse, it made sense - the airport was packed to begin with, DL could have used an extra couple of gates, plus any new airline expansion and you'd be pretty full.
Of course, the bubble went bust, DH went away, DL has whittled away to next to nothing, US Airways has shrunk considerably and CO has been stagnant compared to 2004 (CLE has come/gone). AA has added some stuff, but they were a bit player to begin with (one gate has always been more than enough), and UA has been stagnant in number of flights (just downgauged to RJs now). The Skybus experiment flopped, thus leaving GSO now with plenty of gates, not enough air service.
Davescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2244 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4849 times:
Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 7): Bet heavily on Delta reinstating GSO-LGA, most likely at 4-5x daily on CRJs. Still a net loss of flights, but not a total wash.
I believe DL has dropped MEM down to 1x daily now though.
I think with the LGA build up GSO would make sense to add, as it is part of the financial triangle.
DL site for later this month (weekdays chosen at random) shows MEM -- GSO as:
DL 3003 CRJ100 lv 0930 arr 1219
However, ATL -- GSO is 16 flights per day. 7 CRJ700s, 1 MD 88, 8 CRJ100s. As pointed out, fewer than before, only 1 mainline, but hardly lacks service either.
DTW -- GSO 2x per day (1015, 1350, both CRJ100s)
CVG -- GSO 2x per day 1125, 1955, also on CRJ100s
Just as a comparison, however, in OCT I happen to be flying MEM --- GSO on 4 Oct (a Sunday) on DL 3003. It is going to be my first time going to GSO, to visit friends. Maybe I'll get lucky and see the new runway!
Uncgso From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 330 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4849 times:
So why is GSO seeing such a reduction in flights? The airport is situated in the middle of the 30th largest metro in the country, with easy access to southern Virginia and the mountains.
1. The proximity of RDU and CLT?
2. The lack of FL, B6, WN? (again see #1)
3. The PTAA's preoccupation with FX?
4. Each airline cutting costs by making GSO an all "express" station?
5. A combination of all of the above?
All i know is that not everyone wants to drive to RDU (i know i don't), but if these flight reductions continue, there may be no choice one day.
PHLwok From United States of America, joined May 2007, 376 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4772 times:
All I know is that I've been flying into GSO a lot lately on US, and it actually can be hard to get a seat on short notice during the busier times of the week. Whether this is due to bad luck on my part, always flying during peak times or booking on short notice during or just after irregular ops, I'm not sure, but the regional economy isn't in marvelous shape, so some pulldown in capacity was probably necessary. Having not flown in here in many years prior to May, I have to admit to being surprised as to the runway construction project.
Folks around here don't seem to drive to CLT due to the higher fares there, but I've found folks even on the west side of Winston-Salem who will drive to RDU for better flight selection.
Gsoflyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1090 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4524 times:
I know most people are wary of Allegiant after Skybus stranded so many passengers. People seem to want name brand.
And I am with PHLwok. I fly for business and finding flights during the business week is next to impossible anymore. Flights are just flat booked, and it seems to be booked from way out, so last minutre premiums are being lost by the airlines. I know lots of people don't even look at GSO anymore for flights, they just look to Raleigh now, even though GSO fares are not bad anymore. But people want direct flights... RDU has them.
So, I don't know. PTAA only cares about Honda, FedEx, Cargo and TIMCO.
As for Delta offering LGA. The newspaper said don't count on more than 1 token flight to LGA.
I flew into and out of GSO on American Eagle from Miami last year and found the airport to be quite a pleasure to go in and out of... sure beats the overcrowded airports I usually find myself herded through.
Davescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2244 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 4485 times:
Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 11): even though GSO fares are not bad anymore. But people want direct flights... RDU has them.
I think you have a point. I'm flying on a Sunday, about 45 days out....granted the flight is a CRJ 100 (per DL website) and the plane is over 1/3 full (and probably close to 1/2). Now, that said, I'm flying MEM GSO, instead of RDU (which turned out to me more expensive anyway).
Now, this is about to prove Gsoflyer's point. I coould by so early as I'm going for vacation. But, what I don't understand: why does DL allow so many L/U/T fares in the bucket? If they simply kept the buckets low, why should they miss out on premium fares?
Next question: how does DL deal with full Y promises of seats? Do they have lots of oversells?
PHLwok From United States of America, joined May 2007, 376 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 4421 times:
Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 11): And I am with PHLwok. I fly for business and finding flights during the business week is next to impossible anymore. Flights are just flat booked, and it seems to be booked from way out, so last minutre premiums are being lost by the airlines.
This is what I find odd. These flights are going out full, but I haven't yet paid US over $450 this summer on PHL-GSO for what is more or less a walkup fare, even when the flight was full enough that I was effectively causing or contributing to an overbook situation. I would think they'd try to put higher fares in under that situation, especially since no one other than US flies that without a connection.
Gsoflyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1090 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4247 times:
Well, it's a double edged sword right?
Don't you have to start employing full time ground staff if you bump up the flights, where now the use contractors. Or if you offer mainline, as opposed to now? Isn't this why Untied dropped the mainline flights, even though they were not only packed but they were packed in first class? Isn't this why the station manager didn't want the Denver flights, even though they were on the table?
The same can be said for the other carriers. Allegiant is the only one not competing with anyone. If the other carriers can make customers drive to RDU or Charlotte and stop flights into GSO (or only leave premium flights from GSO), then they can save money in the long run by pushing people to stations where profits can be made much easier.
But, what I don't get is why fares are really not bad at GSO. For instance, I was make bi-monthly runs to Tulsa from Feb to June. If I booked about 1 month in advance, the flight was $150, which I think is a steal since Southwest out of RDU was $200. And even 1 week in advance, the ticket only went up to $300. That's cheap...
Flights on US Airways to various locations are the same way.....
What I don't get is, why, if flights are typically running 100% loads for middle of the day and evening travel and 80% in morning (which statistics show), then why are they continuing to cut flights?
Think about the direct flights lost in the past decade:
Delta: TPA, BOS, MCO, JFK
Northwest: MSP (about to be MEM down from 3 to 1)
US Airways: LGA, PIT, BWI, BOS, FLL, MYR, ROA
Indy Air: IAD, TPA, MCO
Shuttle America: TTN
Skybus: what, 10 different stations
The deal is, Airtran ran 90% loads on the DC-9, and then 100% loads on the CRJ and then they dumped the station.
Indy Air was running near 100% loads.
Skybus ran 90-100% loads on all the Florida, Columbus and Northeast routes
Allegiant was running 90% loads to Sanford and PIE, but cut flights.
BOS, BWI, LGA, MCO were all heavily traveled and all have been lost. Even MSP ran 80% loads and MEM was running 80% on 3 flights and now is dropped to overbooking on 1 flight all the time.
Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 16): For instance, I was make bi-monthly runs to Tulsa from Feb to June. If I booked about 1 month in advance, the flight was $150, which I think is a steal since Southwest out of RDU was $200.
Did I? I think what i posted is proof that demand is here. And by selling out before last minute increases can go into affect cuts out the profits made by last minute business travel. I know my company has had to fly out of Raleigh recently because last minute flights out of GSO has simply been unavailable. Considering we are not that big of an operation, I would think that considering the number of companies here, we wouldn't be the only ones falling into this problem.
Delta767 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 238 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (3 years 9 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3511 times:
I would hope DL would add more than 1 GSO-LGA...I didnt see that in any paper, but it could have been there. I dont trust what newspapers say though, theyre not very informed on these things. I would hope that DL would bring 4-5x to pick up the slack of US' 5-6x being cut.
Gsoflyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1090 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (3 years 9 months 23 hours ago) and read 3338 times:
Delta brought in BOS, ran US out and then canceled BOS. Delta brought in DFW, then canceled it. Delta canceled 2 of 3 MEM flights. Delta canceled the MSP route. Delta canceled JFK. Delta has cut CVG and DTW down to bare bones. Delta cut MCO once they cut RJ service there. Delta canceled TPA once they no longer had to compete with Indy Air. Delta cut Mainline service to ATL once they didn't have to compete with Airtran.
There's no reason for Delta to do anything at GSO.
But on a lighter note. ABX Air is not flying to CVG from GSO on top of Wilmington, Baltimore, and San Juan. FedEx is now flying to Newark, Norfolk, and RDU from GSO. Guess cargi is ramping up.