Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Jet Airways Get More 330s  
User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 852 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4818 times:

.
Jet Airways to go in for more 330s

"30 % cost efficient than B777s: CEO"

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...08/18/stories/2009081852000100.htm

Sounds nice to me.

//Mike 

[Edited 2009-08-18 11:31:55]


Airbus SAS - Love them both
18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4800 times:

Even though they've been giving theirs out to Gulf Air and Oman Air?

Hope its true though.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineElbowroom From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4714 times:

Quoting Solnabo (Thread starter):
"30 % cost efficient than B777s: CEO"

More like 2% CASM advantage to the A330 based on the raw numbers in the article:
A332 - $9,000 per hour ; 220 seats
77W - $12,000 per hour ; 312 seats

For what it's worth, my 'typical' seating spreadsheet based on a set of airlines has 215 on the A332 versus 313 on the 77W, which makes the difference 1%.

Since the $ per hour numbers are so rounded, the difference has got to be within the margin of error.

Of course, if you can't fill it...

ER

[Edited 2009-08-18 11:52:21]

[Edited 2009-08-18 11:54:27]

[Edited 2009-08-18 11:55:57]

User currently offlineMk777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4632 times:



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):
Even though they've been giving theirs out to Gulf Air and Oman Air?

I think only 2 A330's are leased to Oman Air!!!! (VT-JWD/E). I am sure these are the ILFC leased ones.

4 77W's are leased to Gulf air (VT-JEG/H/J/K), i am not sure if 9W has taken back VT-JEK though.

3 77W's to TK (VT-JED/E/F/L ; JEL has not been delivered yet, still at PAE, but in 9W colours). I am thinking it goes to TK too.

Only VT-JEA/B/C operate for 9W unless JEK is leased back.

The 10 owned 330's operate for 9W exclusively. Hence the reasons to buy them, i think 2 class beats 3 class in the current economy.



come fly with me
User currently offlineSeemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 967 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4578 times:



Quoting Mk777 (Reply 3):
I think only 2 A330's are leased to Oman Air!!!!

The A332's are leased, and look great in the WY c/s. The A332's in question are also the only RR powered Airbus 9W's fleet.

Is 9W unhappy with the B77W? Or is there just no demand for them?



seemyseems
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4491 times:



Quoting Elbowroom (Reply 2):
Of course, if you can't fill it...

That's the problem. The CEO was obviously taling about trip cost, so if they only fill about 200 seats, an a332 is of course much more efficient than a 77W.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineTharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4489 times:



Quoting Elbowroom (Reply 2):
Of course, if you can't fill it...

That was my immediate reaction. The article shouldn't say the A330 is more cost efficient. It should say that 9W is having bad loads on the 777. But that isn't positive sounding, is it?

If Pax numbers pick back up again, I'd assume the 777s and F come back.


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4323 times:



Quoting Tharanga (Reply 6):
If Pax numbers pick back up again, I'd assume the 777s and F come back.

in the article it actually reads:

"It plans to lease out the remaining three Boeings in the near future."

It seems 9W is getting rid of all its 77Ws. I'm not sure they'll be back anytime soon.


User currently offlineAviationbuff From India, joined Mar 2008, 1425 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3785 times:



Quoting Thorben (Reply 7):
It seems 9W is getting rid of all its 77Ws. I'm not sure they'll be back anytime soon.

B777 will return with the increase in pax numbers and I have no doubt about it, but I agree that it will not be anytime soon. However, Airbus got a good PR from the reference of "A330 is 30% cost efficient than B777" by the CEO of 9W and this must be music to the ears of JL, as these words are coming from an airline which was all Boeing until A330 arrived. They have all Boeing and no Airbus aircraft on order. The Boeing order also includes 787's (the possible replacements of the A330's).


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3768 times:



Quoting Elbowroom (Reply 2):
77W - $12,000 per hour

Not to be nit-picking, but the article says 13,000.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineColts001 From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 93 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3639 times:

In the same meeting (17th annual general meeting) where the comment about airbus better than boeing comment was made another Jet official mentioned that India - UK routes are picking up and they will earn a profit this winter and they will introduce a bigger aircraft on the route. Below is the link to this article. The funny thing is India - UK is the only route that Jet currently operates boeing 777 with a 3-class config and also they don't have any bigger aircraft on order.

http://www.livemint.com/2009/08/1823...xpects-profit-on-UK-route.html?h=B


User currently offlineElbowRoom From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3469 times:



Quoting A342 (Reply 9):
Not to be nit-picking, but the article says 13,000.

Quite right. Sorry for the slip-up. Fortunately, this was only a typo in my reply. The CASM calculations are correct.

ER


User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3429 times:



Quoting ElbowRoom (Reply 11):
The CASM calculations are correct

A roughly 30% size-advantage over the A330 would normally have to lead to a considerable CASM ADVANTAGE for the 77W, but your calculations show it at a 1% CASM DISADVANTAGE.

Whereas I can agree 1% is close enough to zero to call both planes identical on the CASM front, it is a testimony to the A330s superiority to see it have a CASM similar than that of a plane with 30% more capacity.

I don't see the 77W do this to the A388 for instance....


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9595 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3382 times:



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 12):
Whereas I can agree 1% is close enough to zero to call both planes identical on the CASM front, it is a testimony to the A330s superiority to see it have a CASM similar than that of a plane with 30% more capacity.

Actually if you read the article and think about it, that's not true at all. Jet Airways has a very opulent first class on the 777-300ERs. The forward section of the aircraft (between doors 1 & 2) only has 8 first class seats in the Jet Airways configuration, which is the lowest of any count for that section of a 777-300ER of any airline flying. That space could be used for about 70 economy seats.

It is Jet Airways configuration of their 777s, that just doesn't work. The first class seats are not generating enough revenue. With such an opulent configuration, they'd need to be charging the same as 10 economy seats for one first class seat and that just isn't happening. It's not the plane, it's the configuration. The A330 is configured better with just 30 high quality business class seats for today's market.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineGolfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 757 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3382 times:



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 12):
Whereas I can agree 1% is close enough to zero to call both planes identical on the CASM front, it is a testimony to the A330s superiority to see it have a CASM similar than that of a plane with 30% more capacity.

Correct me if I am wrong but according to my understanding the CASM is affected by the number of premium seats configured for that aircraft. The CASM for the 777 is higher as it has more premium seats than the 330. So how can you judge superiority based on the CASM when the configurations for the 2 aircraft are different? To me it looks more like better suitability for market conditions than a question of aircraft superiority.


User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2967 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2779 times:

The problem I guess is with 9W's brilliant F-class suites. Those eight seats take up a lot of room, are virtually never occupied other than by some Bollywood stars. Most industrialists fly on their own metal in India. 9W should look at re-configuring the 77W's into a two-class plane. 8 F-seats can give way 21 J-seats (2-3-2) but I guess that would mean popping in some windows on the Starboard side of the planes!


A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
User currently offlineElbowRoom From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2338 times:

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 12):
A roughly 30% size-advantage over the A330 would normally have to lead to a considerable CASM ADVANTAGE for the 77W, but your calculations show it at a 1% CASM DISADVANTAGE.

   Agreed, on Jet's seating figures the A330 is 2% more efficient in CASM terms. On my figures it is 1% less efficient in fact  footinmouth . Still, it boils down to the 332 and the 77W being very close, based on Jet's rough figures for $/hr.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 13):
8 first class seats in the Jet Airways configuration, which is the lowest of any count for that section of a 777-300ER of any airline flying. That space could be used for about 70 economy seats.

Prompted me to do something I have thought about before, which is to compare simply the amount of 'real estate' provided by each aircraft on the main deck. Assuming away the subtle differences in shape, the difference in floorspace is that the A332 is 30.7% smaller. Funnily enough, the difference in cost per hr is 30.8%, based on Jet's figures.

Looks like whether you use seats (in an equivalent layout) or floorspace, Jet's cost figures make it seem the A332 and 77W are on a par for CASM.

Some data posted on A.net by Widebodyphotog some time back suggested the A332 burns about 5.5% more fuel than the 77W per seat. If so, maybe the A332 is cheaper in some other areas? Or maybe Jet's figures are too rounded to give a true picture.

ER

[Edited 2009-08-19 11:29:12]

User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2188 times:



Quoting Aviationbuff (Reply 8):
However, Airbus got a good PR from the reference of "A330 is 30% cost efficient than B777" by the CEO of 9W and this must be music to the ears of JL, as these words are coming from an airline which was all Boeing until A330 arrived.

We all know that is rubbish. It may cost 30% less to fly an A330 compared to a 777, but the figures per pax, or even better per ton of payload, can not be anywhere near that. Leaving aside fuel burn, the economies of scale favor a bigger plane (pilots, landing and overflight fees). So leasing rates or depreciation might play another role, the 77W is expensive, but the A332 isn't going cheap either.


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9595 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2118 times:



Quoting Cricket (Reply 15):
The problem I guess is with 9W's brilliant F-class suites
. Those eight seats take up a lot of room, are virtually never occupied other than by some Bollywood stars. Most industrialists fly on their own metal in India. 9W should look at re-configuring the 77W's into a two-class plane. 8 F-seats can give way 21 J-seats (2-3-2) but I guess that would mean popping in some windows on the Starboard side of the planes!

What is worse is that the business class is good enough to have fully flat seats to make someone seriously think twice about booking in first. I think having a first class and a fully flat horizontal business in the angled configuration does not make sense. BA seems to be able to do it, but London in a unique city of wealth in the world. I'm not sure how UA having fully flat business is affecting first class sales.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Jet Airways Orders 10 A330 Option For 10 More posted Tue Jun 14 2005 12:10:52 by KL911
Jet Airways To Consider Any More Euro Cities Soon posted Sun Jun 12 2005 08:09:39 by Kkfla737
Jet Airways Will Get A 737-900 posted Fri Jul 26 2002 04:00:25 by United777
Jet Airways 737 Skids Off The Runway At Dhaka posted Mon Aug 17 2009 05:04:03 by Planemannyc
Impact Of EK A 380 In YYZ On Jet Airways posted Sun May 3 2009 17:18:14 by Behramjee
Jet Airways B773 VT-JEB Emergency Landing At WAW! posted Sun Mar 1 2009 08:52:45 by Lot767sp-lpa
Jet Airways CEO Resigns posted Wed Feb 18 2009 22:19:20 by Viscount724
Jet Airways Leases Aircraft To Oman Air posted Tue Feb 17 2009 03:43:22 by QatarA340
Jet Airways In Spat With Canadian Gov't posted Tue Feb 3 2009 06:31:15 by Lnglive1011yyz
Should Kingfisher Or Jet Airways Joind SkyTeam? posted Mon Jan 12 2009 07:08:18 by DELTA7478