More like 2% CASM advantage to the A330 based on the raw numbers in the article:
A332 - $9,000 per hour ; 220 seats
77W - $12,000 per hour ; 312 seats
For what it's worth, my 'typical' seating spreadsheet based on a set of airlines has 215 on the A332 versus 313 on the 77W, which makes the difference 1%.
Since the $ per hour numbers are so rounded, the difference has got to be within the margin of error.
Mk777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4003 times:
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1): Even though they've been giving theirs out to Gulf Air and Oman Air?
I think only 2 A330's are leased to Oman Air!!!! (VT-JWD/E). I am sure these are the ILFC leased ones.
4 77W's are leased to Gulf air (VT-JEG/H/J/K), i am not sure if 9W has taken back VT-JEK though.
3 77W's to TK (VT-JED/E/F/L ; JEL has not been delivered yet, still at PAE, but in 9W colours). I am thinking it goes to TK too.
Only VT-JEA/B/C operate for 9W unless JEK is leased back.
The 10 owned 330's operate for 9W exclusively. Hence the reasons to buy them, i think 2 class beats 3 class in the current economy.
That's the problem. The CEO was obviously taling about trip cost, so if they only fill about 200 seats, an a332 is of course much more efficient than a 77W.
Tharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1778 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3860 times:
That was my immediate reaction. The article shouldn't say the A330 is more cost efficient. It should say that 9W is having bad loads on the 777. But that isn't positive sounding, is it?
If Pax numbers pick back up again, I'd assume the 777s and F come back.
Aviationbuff From India, joined Mar 2008, 1424 posts, RR: 3 Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 3156 times:
Quoting Thorben (Reply 7): It seems 9W is getting rid of all its 77Ws. I'm not sure they'll be back anytime soon.
B777 will return with the increase in pax numbers and I have no doubt about it, but I agree that it will not be anytime soon. However, Airbus got a good PR from the reference of "A330 is 30% cost efficient than B777" by the CEO of 9W and this must be music to the ears of JL, as these words are coming from an airline which was all Boeing until A330 arrived. They have all Boeing and no Airbus aircraft on order. The Boeing order also includes 787's (the possible replacements of the A330's).
Colts001 From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 88 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3010 times:
In the same meeting (17th annual general meeting) where the comment about airbus better than boeing comment was made another Jet official mentioned that India - UK routes are picking up and they will earn a profit this winter and they will introduce a bigger aircraft on the route. Below is the link to this article. The funny thing is India - UK is the only route that Jet currently operates boeing 777 with a 3-class config and also they don't have any bigger aircraft on order.
A roughly 30% size-advantage over the A330 would normally have to lead to a considerable CASM ADVANTAGE for the 77W, but your calculations show it at a 1% CASM DISADVANTAGE.
Whereas I can agree 1% is close enough to zero to call both planes identical on the CASM front, it is a testimony to the A330s superiority to see it have a CASM similar than that of a plane with 30% more capacity.
I don't see the 77W do this to the A388 for instance....
Roseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 8741 posts, RR: 52 Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 2753 times:
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 12): Whereas I can agree 1% is close enough to zero to call both planes identical on the CASM front, it is a testimony to the A330s superiority to see it have a CASM similar than that of a plane with 30% more capacity.
Actually if you read the article and think about it, that's not true at all. Jet Airways has a very opulent first class on the 777-300ERs. The forward section of the aircraft (between doors 1 & 2) only has 8 first class seats in the Jet Airways configuration, which is the lowest of any count for that section of a 777-300ER of any airline flying. That space could be used for about 70 economy seats.
It is Jet Airways configuration of their 777s, that just doesn't work. The first class seats are not generating enough revenue. With such an opulent configuration, they'd need to be charging the same as 10 economy seats for one first class seat and that just isn't happening. It's not the plane, it's the configuration. The A330 is configured better with just 30 high quality business class seats for today's market.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
Golfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 556 posts, RR: 2 Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 2753 times:
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 12): Whereas I can agree 1% is close enough to zero to call both planes identical on the CASM front, it is a testimony to the A330s superiority to see it have a CASM similar than that of a plane with 30% more capacity.
Correct me if I am wrong but according to my understanding the CASM is affected by the number of premium seats configured for that aircraft. The CASM for the 777 is higher as it has more premium seats than the 330. So how can you judge superiority based on the CASM when the configurations for the 2 aircraft are different? To me it looks more like better suitability for market conditions than a question of aircraft superiority.
Cricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2936 posts, RR: 7 Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2150 times:
The problem I guess is with 9W's brilliant F-class suites. Those eight seats take up a lot of room, are virtually never occupied other than by some Bollywood stars. Most industrialists fly on their own metal in India. 9W should look at re-configuring the 77W's into a two-class plane. 8 F-seats can give way 21 J-seats (2-3-2) but I guess that would mean popping in some windows on the Starboard side of the planes!
ElbowRoom From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 174 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 1709 times:
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 12): A roughly 30% size-advantage over the A330 would normally have to lead to a considerable CASM ADVANTAGE for the 77W, but your calculations show it at a 1% CASM DISADVANTAGE.
Agreed, on Jet's seating figures the A330 is 2% more efficient in CASM terms. On my figures it is 1% less efficient in fact . Still, it boils down to the 332 and the 77W being very close, based on Jet's rough figures for $/hr.
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 13): 8 first class seats in the Jet Airways configuration, which is the lowest of any count for that section of a 777-300ER of any airline flying. That space could be used for about 70 economy seats.
Prompted me to do something I have thought about before, which is to compare simply the amount of 'real estate' provided by each aircraft on the main deck. Assuming away the subtle differences in shape, the difference in floorspace is that the A332 is 30.7% smaller. Funnily enough, the difference in cost per hr is 30.8%, based on Jet's figures.
Looks like whether you use seats (in an equivalent layout) or floorspace, Jet's cost figures make it seem the A332 and 77W are on a par for CASM.
Some data posted on A.net by Widebodyphotog some time back suggested the A332 burns about 5.5% more fuel than the 77W per seat. If so, maybe the A332 is cheaper in some other areas? Or maybe Jet's figures are too rounded to give a true picture.
Thorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 1559 times:
Quoting Aviationbuff (Reply 8): However, Airbus got a good PR from the reference of "A330 is 30% cost efficient than B777" by the CEO of 9W and this must be music to the ears of JL, as these words are coming from an airline which was all Boeing until A330 arrived.
We all know that is rubbish. It may cost 30% less to fly an A330 compared to a 777, but the figures per pax, or even better per ton of payload, can not be anywhere near that. Leaving aside fuel burn, the economies of scale favor a bigger plane (pilots, landing and overflight fees). So leasing rates or depreciation might play another role, the 77W is expensive, but the A332 isn't going cheap either.
Roseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 8741 posts, RR: 52 Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 1489 times:
Quoting Cricket (Reply 15): The problem I guess is with 9W's brilliant F-class suites
. Those eight seats take up a lot of room, are virtually never occupied other than by some Bollywood stars. Most industrialists fly on their own metal in India. 9W should look at re-configuring the 77W's into a two-class plane. 8 F-seats can give way 21 J-seats (2-3-2) but I guess that would mean popping in some windows on the Starboard side of the planes!
What is worse is that the business class is good enough to have fully flat seats to make someone seriously think twice about booking in first. I think having a first class and a fully flat horizontal business in the angled configuration does not make sense. BA seems to be able to do it, but London in a unique city of wealth in the world. I'm not sure how UA having fully flat business is affecting first class sales.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
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Agreed, on Jet's seating figures the A330 is 2% more efficient in CASM terms. On my figures it is 1% less efficient in fact 
. Still, it boils down to the 332 and the 77W being very close, based on Jet's rough figures for $/hr.
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