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Is listening to ATC in violation of post 9/11 Home Land Security regul  
User currently offlineDublinLiam From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 12169 times:

I was in a parking lot near Newark Airport after purchasing some Swedish foodstuffs listening to the tower and watching a/c movements when a Newark City Police car pulled up beside me and asked what I was doing to which I responded that I was listening to airplanes. The officer, politely, told me that such actions were violations of post 911 Home Land security regulations (his wording) and that by right he should take my credentials and report me so that I would later be called in to explain what I was doing. He said that I must leave. The questions are: Is it illegal by Federal statute to listen to, to look at or to photograph aircraft in a public setting? If the answer to any is yes then does not follow any site that has photographs especially of airports , comments on air talk, technical comments or any discussions relating to aviation are aiding and abetting a violation of Federal statutes?

80 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLonghornmaniac From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 3332 posts, RR: 45
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 12156 times:

No, it is not illegal in any way, shape or form. Take his badge # down and report him to his superiors.

Cheers,
Cameron


User currently offlineDublinLiam From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 12120 times:

Thanks Cameron, If anyone believes that he or she knows of a statute or believes knows do kindly give me a real lead.

User currently offlineBorism From Estonia, joined Oct 2006, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 12052 times:

I can't find the link, but I remember reading that use of radio scanners in cars was not allowed in NJ but is fine otherwise.

P.S. but I may be wrong - IANAL.

P.P.S. OK, it seems to apply to FL and NY, but no info on NJ.

[Edited 2009-08-18 17:32:18]

User currently offlineJreuschl From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 549 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11988 times:

At MKE there actually is a watcher parking lot, and the ATC is broadcasted on FM radio for listening in your car!

User currently offlinePHLapproach From Philippines, joined Mar 2004, 1246 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11954 times:



Quoting Borism (Reply 3):
I can't find the link, but I remember reading that use of radio scanners in cars was not allowed in NJ but is fine otherwise.

To my understanding, most of those laws refer to driving around with a Scanner being operated using the Automobiles power. And of course the typical "It's against the law to be using a Scanner while committing a crime". But that goes without saying lol


User currently offlineAviateur From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1357 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11944 times:

Oh god, not this crap again.

It is NOT illegal to listen to ATC, just as it is NOT illegal to take photographs of airplanes or airport buildings.

I once researched and published an article on this topic after being detained by police for taking photos at the airports in MHT and PVD while on assignment there for a newspaper. Email me if you'd like a copy.

Don't be told otherwise.


Also, there are no such things as "post 9/11 Homeland Security regulations," much as some people in this country wish it were that easy to control and frighten people. There are * laws. *

Just as there are * rights. *


PS

[Edited 2009-08-18 18:01:58]

[Edited 2009-08-18 18:03:22]


Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
User currently offlinePhoenix9 From Canada, joined Aug 2007, 2546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11931 times:

Even if they wanted to make it illegal, how would they enforce it if someone was sitting 2 miles from the airport and had their scanner on? Here at YYZ, cops do come and question you if you are practically sitting on the fence or taking photographs at airport property but usually they leave you alone.

If they make this kind of listening illegal, where does it leave flight tracking sites which give a lot more information about a flight (granted it is a bit delayed but if someone wanted to, they can do the analysis and predict possible location, altitude etc.)?



[Edited 2009-08-18 18:38:22]


Life only makes sense when you look at it backwards.
User currently offlineJohnJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1662 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11921 times:

The Bradley Air Museum near Hartford also broadcasts air traffic control over loudspeakers. I'm sure lots of establishments do this, including United Airlines with Channel 9. Not at all illegal and I've had mine out when the police have stopped by to check me out without difficulty.

Found these links:

http://www.northwest-corner.com/NWCScannerlaw.htm

http://www.panix.com/~clay/scanning/...requencies/handy-info/scan-law.txt

which lists it being legal in New Jersey to have a mobile scanner.

[Edited 2009-08-18 17:59:59]

User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1604 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11824 times:



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 7):
Even if they wanted to make it illegal, how would they enforce it if someone was sitting 2 miles from the airport and had their scanner on? Here at YYZ, cops do come and question you if you are practically sitting on the fence or taking photographs at airport property but usually they leave you alone.

If they make this kind of listening, where does it leave flight tracking sites which give a lot more information about a flight (granted it is a bit delayed but if someone wanted to, they can do the analysis and predict possible location, altitude etc.)?

Good point -- they would at least have to prove some form of probably cause that you were doing something illegal. When I go spotting or even just listening to the scanner at the airport while waiting to board I usually just go by the old "don't do anything to make yourself look suspicious" logic. You've got nothing to worry about as long as you're not acting in some way that attracts attention, and even if that happens my understanding is that airport police may check it out but that's about it (usually).


User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 11675 times:

Much as it is not illegal to listen to ATC, it is probably still not in your best interests to take some of the actions recommended so far in this thread. New York area police (whether they be in Newark or anywhere else) are highly experienced in making things very unpleasant for pretty much anybody they consider a possible threat. If you don't want to spend 47.5 hours locked up in a holding cell (about the limit they can hold you without charge), I would recommend holding your tongue or, at least, being as polite as humanly possible in asserting your rights. I definitely would *not* go around threatening to call a cop's superiors or otherwise being belligerent.


I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineLonghornmaniac From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 3332 posts, RR: 45
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 11598 times:



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 10):
I definitely would *not* go around threatening to call a cop's superiors or otherwise being belligerent.

I'm not suggesting one be an asshole about it, but requesting a badge number, and rather than THREATENING to call them, once the police have left, actually do it, is a good course of action. This cop is going a power trip (although it is quite possible he wasn't intentionally doing so, I suppose), and should be informed of the actual laws before threatening to detain an innocent civilian doing a perfectly legal activity. This has to start much higher. These policemen's commanding officers need to re-educate their force about the legality of such activity. ESPECIALLY if they are airport police (I see this was not, but I've been hassled before by Airport Police).

They try to discourage this type of behavior, completely unaware that for those of us that actually care about airplanes, we can be just one more pair of eyes looking out for suspicious activity. I know, I know, how do they distinguish us from people looking to commit a crime, but as long as it is legal, we should never receive anything more than a simple question asking us what we are doing. I have no problem with that, in fact, I welcome it. It is a good way to educate people (police included) about our hobby.

Question about the legality of scanners: what about using an iPhone app such as the LiveATC application. It's not a scanner, per se, but it does function the same way?

Cheers,
Cameron


User currently offlinePRFLYER From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 11562 times:

Heck, there is now an iPhone app for Liveatc. If it was illegal to listen to Air Traffic, Apple will not license this app.

User currently offlinePilotboi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2366 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 11486 times:



Quoting Borism (Reply 3):
I can't find the link, but I remember reading that use of radio scanners in cars was not allowed in NJ but is fine otherwise.

P.S. but I may be wrong - IANAL.

P.P.S. OK, it seems to apply to FL and NY, but no info on NJ.

That is ONLY for emergency services such as ambulance and police (ie state troopers). It DOES NOT apply to any other bands, including ATC. The idea behind this law is to prevent people from tracking where police are avoiding getting ticketed for speeding, etc.

It only states that a scanner in ones car can not be programmed (regardless if it's actually tuned to the frequency) to a frequency used by emergency services (or perhaps just by police/troopers). However, if you have a HAM license or any other type of radio license, this law does not apply to you. Regardless of that, it does NOT prohibit you listening to ATC while driving.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 11467 times:

Quoting DublinLiam (Thread starter):

Where EXACTLY were you? If you were indeed in a parking lot, then the cop has no business bothering you. Now if you were in an airport employee parking lot, then it would raise suspicions. I feel you are leaving some details out in your story..... Location is EVERYTHING.....

And there is no such regulation set by DHS about listening to ATC. Heck, if there were.... UA would have removed Channel 9 from its audio line-up.

[Edited 2009-08-18 21:38:02]


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 11408 times:

No it is not illegal to listen to ATC. If it were then why would there still be places selling scanners??

FX1816


User currently offlineEnginebird From United States of America, joined May 2007, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 11389 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
And there is no such regulation set by DHS about listening to ATC. Heck, if there were.... UA would have removed Channel 9 from its audio line-up.

 checkmark  Exactly!

Just arrived on UA long haul into SFO and listened to ATC on Channel 9 for at least an hour before landing. And, I am now sitting in an airport hotel facing the parallel runways (28L/R) into SFO-bay listening to liveatc.net while watching planes land. Cannot imagine that listening to ATC is illegal as it is so accessible.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15781 posts, RR: 27
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 11347 times:



Quoting Jreuschl (Reply 4):
At MKE there actually is a watcher parking lot, and the ATC is broadcasted on FM radio for listening in your car!

This is the better option for security. Having a place for people (people with cell phones) to watch the airport is a good idea, just post the number for the airport police nearby and a security liability has become a security asset.

Furthermore, when they used to have viewing areas at STL, I would see a cop drive by at least once every 5 minutes or so and you couldn't drive around the perimeter road with out seeing 2 or 3. Now I don't know how long it's been since I've seen a cop around there.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1893 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 11177 times:
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Quoting Jreuschl (Reply 4):
At MKE there actually is a watcher parking lot, and the ATC is broadcasted on FM radio for listening in your car!

LAS has one as well. I think airports that do this are ultra cool.



The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineCharles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1331 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days ago) and read 11023 times:



Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 18):

LAS has one as well. I think airports that do this are ultra cool.

And some, like DUS, even have a viewing terrace right on TOP of the gates!

This is paranoia running out of control, nothing more.

Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 7):
how would they enforce it if someone was sitting 2 miles from the airport and had their scanner on?

I'll go one further: from my apartment in LA I had the view seen below of LAX...I was close enough that I could pick up the Airport's ATC on my scanner while watching movements. Would they have gone as far as to come into my place and harass me there?

Big version: Width: 1024 Height: 685 File size: 120kb
AZ 620 makes first landing at LAX, 1 June 2008


User currently offlineDublinLiam From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days ago) and read 10973 times:

Where EXACTLY were you? If you were indeed in a parking lot, then the cop has no business bothering you. Now if you were in an airport employee parking lot, then it would raise suspicions. I feel you are leaving some details out in your story..... Location is EVERYTHING.....


I was in the IKEA / Toys r Us parking lot after shopping in IKEA. When at IKEA I usually, in addition to my regular purchases, get coffee and the IKEA cinnamon bun and sit in the lot for an hour or so listening to the tower. Now, from what I have read thus far, it appears that the comments of the police man were not correct. The lot always has a Newark Police vehicle stationed there. I do say that this was the first time I felt that a threat from a police officer. 'Have had many in the family from NYPD to NY State.


User currently offlineTjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10819 times:



Quoting DublinLiam (Reply 20):
was in the IKEA / Toys r Us parking lot after shopping in IKEA. When at IKEA I usually, in addition to my regular purchases, get coffee and the IKEA cinnamon bun and sit in the lot for an hour or so listening to the tower. Now, from what I have read thus far, it appears that the comments of the police man were not correct. The lot always has a Newark Police vehicle stationed there. I do say that this was the first time I felt that a threat from a police officer. 'Have had many in the family from NYPD to NY State.

IKEA is in Elizabeth, NJ. The cop you encountered was probably either Elizabeth PD or the infamous PANYNJ PD. My brother-in-law and I have had lots of "fun" encounters with them trying to spot around EWR. Don't get feisty with them even if they're wrong..... just nod your head in agreement, say yes sir/ ma'am, and move on.



Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
User currently offlineJohnJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1662 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10719 times:



Quoting FX1816 (Reply 15):
No it is not illegal to listen to ATC. If it were then why would there still be places selling scanners??

I have a buddy with an old scanner that allows you to monitor the cell/mobile phone bands. That IS now illegal, and scanners sold in the US today have that range of channels blocked out. If receiving ATC transmissions were in any way illegal those channels would be blocked.

Quoting Tjwgrr (Reply 21):
Don't get feisty with them even if they're wrong..... just nod your head in agreement, say yes sir/ ma'am, and move on.

That's a fairly frightening statement, but unfortunately probably true. Gestapo alive and well in the US? I had an encounter with the Elizabeth police in around 2004 and got the "photography around airports is illegal since 9/11" line from them. Perhaps someone really should take them to task for this.

I posted this several years ago but I'd love to take my family to the IKEA shopping center and have my wife load up a shopping cart with several hundred dollars of merchandise at the Toys 'R' Us while I spotted from the parking lot. Then, when the inevitable police encounter came, after wrapping up with the police I'd go into the Toys 'R' Us, find the store manager, bring him over to my wife, show him the cart and explain why we were leaving without buying the merchandise.


User currently offlineEDICHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10624 times:



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 19):
from my apartment in LA I had the view seen below of LAX...I was close enough that I could pick up the Airport's ATC on my scanner while watching movements. Would they have gone as far as to come into my place and harass me there?


AZ 620 makes first landing at LAX, 1 June 2008

You need someone to share your apartment?


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10506 times:

Just out of idle curiosity, has anyone (having been told listening/photographing is "illegal") ever asked for a specific citation as far as the rule/regulation/law/ordinance supposedly being violated?

There not being one, I'm curious if anyone gets cited anything (made up?) or whether the officer continues the bluff with a "just because" type of answer....

[Edited 2009-08-19 08:17:23]

25 GeorgiaAME : Sorry the cop made a mistake. Glad you followed his admonition, without putting up a fight as some people recently in the news would have enjoyed doin
26 Jtamu97 : You should come to IAH..While there were some problems after 9/11, I have lately had many security and Houston Police officers pull into the area and
27 Tjwgrr : Probably still checking you out, but a MUCH better way to do it.
28 Pegasus01 : I just downloaded it the other night. Srongly recccomend anyone with an Iphone to pick it up. generally all US airports are very clear. Starts gettin
29 ExFATboy : Actually, the laws usually apply when the vehicle is in motion (or at least the engine is turned on), even if the device is battery powered. As a gen
30 Spudsmac : I would be careful what I say if I were you. All the feeds are provided courtesy of volunteers(myself included). You are only able to listen to it be
31 413X3 : Some people just love living in a police state. Try that and you will have a huge lawsuit, with the police officers either losing their jobs or going
32 2H4 : Indeed. Airport management needs to realize that they have a choice. Either their airport HAS a viewing area, or their airport IS a viewing area. 2H4
33 Skyway1 : Oh the memories......leaving the employee lot and listening to the ground controllers... Miss working there. It was a fun time in my life....
34 FRAspotter : The same thing happened to me while I was spotting at the viewers parking lot area on Lee Rd. directly under the final approach for Runway 27. A Hous
35 BMI727 : How things have changed. I remember going to STL in the mid 90s with my family and watching 747s and L-1011s from the McDonnell Douglas parking lot.
36 AerLingusA330 : I was spotting a couple years ago at RIC and the police stopped me. The first occasion, the officer just made sure that I had a standard 32mm camera a
37 AirframeAS : Then you were fine and the cop was incorrect and should have not bothered you from the git-go. So now we are letting rogue cops win?? Ugh!
38 Charles79 : I don't live there anymore as I moved to DC...in any case, the apartment buidling went downhill as it struck a deal to house college students from a
39 Pegasus01 : Noted. Apologies to those who took offence. On your reason stating the double sound feed, why is that only done on certain feeds and not on others.
40 Tjwgrr : I guess I don't feel like testing the system with the potential of spending up to 48 hours in custody for questioning....
41 FX1816 : Yup you got that right I don't mind though I get to listen to ATC daily FX1816
42 DocLightning : So one solution to this, should this happen to you is to: 1) Politely tell the officer that you are not aware that it is illegal, but that you will tu
43 AndyGarrett : If it is "illegal" how come you can listen to towers, departure, arrivals, etc all over the world on liveatc.net?
44 IAHFLYR : My question is why would anyone actually care or want to listen to ATC, they're all so boring and straight forward phraseology wise! The Houston Airpo
45 Post contains links Cubsrule : Actually, Homeland Security has plenty of regulations (though none of them is applicable here). http://www.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/cfrassemble.cgi?tit
46 Borism : So because something is available on the internet it must be legal? There are sites which will sell you pot or polonium, that doesn't mean you won't
47 AndyGarrett : Borism: Unless you are a terrorist, I hardly think there is much comparison between ATC and pot or polonium. After all, the airplane eventually lands
48 Davescj : And then write later as suggested. Why the extreme reaction? Can't we presume the officer honestly thought he was doing the right thing? Is it possib
49 JohnJ : If you're a photographer trying to catch a specific flight at an airport with multiple runways, having a scanner is an indespensinable tool. I'm not
50 Aviationbuff08 : Well any Federal Law Enforcement agency can detain you for up to 72 hours without any charges, and good luck with a lawsuit against the Federal Gover
51 Maverick623 : No sir. I will politely tell them that I believe them to be wrong. Giving the appearance of you agreeing will make them think they're in the right. J
52 Tjwgrr : Let us know how this works out for you..........
53 BWI5OH : Being in that cops shoes a thousand times, I too have had the opportunity to speak with many a plane spotter and ATC listeners at the viewing area. Wh
54 Cubsrule : I think you're missing a key distinction, though. If the spotter is not trespassing and isn't on property where the police may ask spotters to leave
55 N766UA : I agree. What is comes down to is this: If you're not doing anything wrong, don't start. Be courteous and respectful, and if the officer isn't doing
56 BWI5OH : Actually, we can. If the property owner calls us because of "someone sitting on our parking lot with a hand held radio and he's not a customer", we c
57 Cubsrule : Correct. I think we are on the same page. I was just pointing out that unless Ikea had called the police on this guy (or had, more generally, asked t
58 BWI5OH : EXACTLY!! Believe me, I am not defending what that officer did. He was definately in the wrong, but being beligerant to him isn't going to solve the
59 Davescj : Remember -- as pointed out by BWI5OH -- private property laws do change state to state. Generally speaking, parking lots are private property. Also, i
60 BWI5OH : Which brings me to the next point. What if, by some remote chance, that the officer responded because of a complaint by a concerned citizen? Lots of
61 Yellowtail : So does that Restaurant right by the runway at MIA (over by Burger King HQ)...can't recall the name....pretty good meal though
62 DublinLiam : The patrol car had NEWARK in large lettering. My memory tells me that there has been a police vehicle in addition to the non-police security vehicles
63 DocLightning : And most people, especially cops in uniform, both of the right and wrong variety, HATE hearing that. And then when they hate hearing that, you say it
64 N1120A : That is really an apologist stance. The police have no right to make things up, nor is their trampling on someone's civil rights a simple mistake. 1)
65 Maverick623 : Well, since I challenged the cops authority, I may end up in handcuffs. But he'd probably get a few days off for it... remember, I'm talking specific
66 Davescj : I think we should stick to the 24 hr habeas corpus. For once I also agree with Scalia, and think 24 hrs is too long to wait w/o being charged. Dave
67 Cubsrule : ...so a police officer can come into my house and tell me to leave and I must comply? It's interesting (if slightly off-topic) to look at Scalia's de
68 Davescj : In a case of emergency? Yes. No, of course, that is off topic, but possible. As to the topic, part of the issue/problem is the "heightened state of s
69 LVTMB : Mmmm. Not really a paranoid society. Rather a paranoid law enforcement community. Are you sure it was not Dick Cheney disguised as a NJ finest? MB
70 Cubsrule : Sure, but wouldn't it be a lawful order in that case?
71 Jman40 : So many airports are owned by governments (my home airport is owned by the city, for example). And unless I am in a posted "off limits" area, I don't
72 N1120A : Scalia's only real bright spots have been in this area and a few smallish First Amendment speech cases. That said, his opinions on the Fourth Amendme
73 JohnJ : Airports and train stations, while public-owned, are not truly "public" areas in the sense of a sidewalk or city park. Those places can and do make r
74 Maverick623 : Especially in this day and age. Yes, but if a cop suddenly shows up to my house and tells me to get out (which has happened to me before), I leave, m
75 Aviationbuff08 : My though exactly, you just beat me to it. So If the airport is owned by local government, is it actually considered "private property". I tend to be
76 Cubsrule : The sensible action and the action that the law requires are frequently not the same (see, e.g., Skip Gates).
77 BWI5OH : State laws differ, however, places like malls, airports and train stations are considered "private property used by the general public". Although it
78 Jhooper : No, it's not illegal. I can't say I'd give a damn if it were illegal; it wouldn't stop me.
79 AirframeAS : Does UA turn off channel 9 when entering/leaving the UK?
80 Borism : I believe technically you're not on UK soil when onboard UA aircraft? And besides that, channel 9 is totally different story, as UA has license to op
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