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Caribbean-Latin America Route Expansions  
User currently offlineOP3000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1766 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 1 month 1 day ago) and read 4677 times:

A rather thorough article was just published on the recent and future expansion of services between the Caribbean and South America, which historically have been weak. I did not find an existing thread that would fit everything, and there are a couple of ideas which I find interesting to consider.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...rica-market-poised-for-growth.html

Highlights are:

-Gol's interest further expanding into regular service from Brazil
-CM's recent routes into AUA and POS
-Increased competition into SDQ to CM from TA
-LA's growth at PUJ from SCL, EZE and now LIM
-BW and Air Caraibes potentially increasing frequencies to Venezuela, Suriname and the Guyanas.

Towards the bottom the article talks about two potential ideas:
-CUR's interest in becoming a low-cost hub for North-South traffic
-B6 potentially interested in 5th freedom service from the Caribbean to South America

These last two points strike me as a ways away, but I wonder if in ten years things will have moved in that direction. A growing middle class in South America will make travel to the Caribbean increase signficantly, perhaps making these viable ideas.

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAA1818 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Feb 2006, 3435 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 23 hours ago) and read 4674 times:



Quoting OP3000 (Thread starter):
-CM's recent routes into AUA and POS

I understand that POS is performing exceptionally well. I believe they are up to 6 weekly on predominantly 737-700 aircraft. KIN, which I believe is much older as a CM route than POS is still at less capacity AFAIK.
AUA on the other hand has been performing sub-par (a view expressed by many in the know on this site). I am suprised CUR wasn't selected ahead of AUA as a CM route.

Quoting OP3000 (Thread starter):
-BW and Air Caraibes potentially increasing frequencies to Venezuela, Suriname and the Guyanas.

BW recently went from daily flights to 10 weekly flights on the POS-CCS sector, and will soon revert to daily flights. I believe Aeropostal also wants to re-start POS-CCS before the end of the year. GEO and PBM have long-standing links with POS and BW has served them for donkey's years.

In terms of Caribbean/ LatAm expansion, I believe Jamaica and Barbados are making a serious thrust to draw South American tourists, while Trinidad and Tobago are making a thrust to establish deeper trading relationships and closer business ties. In the end, what is expected are more sir links between Brazil, Peru, Chile and Argentina to the dominant 3 English-speaking Caribbean isles, namely Jamaica, Trinidad (and Tobago) and Barbados.

AA1818



“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
User currently offlineOP3000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1766 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 15 hours ago) and read 4487 times:



Quoting AA1818 (Reply 1):
I am suprised CUR wasn't selected ahead of AUA as a CM route.

I would have expected CUR first, and chances are they may be reconsidering the choice of whether to stay at AUA.

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 1):
In terms of Caribbean/ LatAm expansion, I believe Jamaica and Barbados are making a serious thrust to draw South American tourists, while Trinidad and Tobago are making a thrust to establish deeper trading relationships and closer business ties. In the end, what is expected are more sir links between Brazil, Peru, Chile and Argentina to the dominant 3 English-speaking Caribbean isles, namely Jamaica, Trinidad (and Tobago) and Barbados.

Yes the JTB in particular is working that angle hard. I think CM will continue to be the pioneer in consolidating and linking traffic to/from the English-speaking islands, as they have the best model to make low-density routes work.

The other carrier that has not yet gotten into the mix much given their size and proximity is AV, besides a 4x weekly flight to SDQ and charters to PUJ. As they keep growing, expanding/renovating their fleet and integrating with their subsidiaries in Brazil and Ecuador you may see them start going to places like HAV, POS and SJU.


User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4505 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 15 hours ago) and read 4481 times:



Quoting OP3000 (Thread starter):
CM's recent routes into AUA and POS

During the 2008, CM opened POS, CNF, VLN, AUA and VVI.
Nothing official for the 2009 at this time anyhow.




.

Quoting OP3000 (Thread starter):
Increased competition into SDQ to CM from TA

TA launched this year LIM-SDQ and re-timed SJO-SDQ as pure daylight allocation.
Several routes out of LIM have been launched this year: TA LIM-HAV [March 23th], TA LIM-SDQ [July 01st], TA LIM-GYE-CLO [August 16th] and TA LIM-MEX [November 01st].

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8816 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 14 hours ago) and read 4433 times:
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Quoting OP3000 (Thread starter):
-LA's growth at PUJ from SCL, EZE and now LIM

Also, LA, 4M and LP will all offer services between MIA and PUJ.

Quoting OP3000 (Reply 2):
The other carrier that has not yet gotten into the mix much given their size and proximity is AV, besides a 4x weekly flight to SDQ and charters to PUJ. As they keep growing, expanding/renovating their fleet and integrating with their subsidiaries in Brazil and Ecuador you may see them start going to places like HAV, POS and SJU.

AV's subsidiary SAM will soon operate BOG-CUR 5x weekly. 4C and Dutch Antilles Express both operate BOG-CUR 2x weekly. AV/SAM also operates BOG-AUA daily and BOG-PUJ weekly. As for AV entering the POS market in the future, it will be hard for them to compete with CM's service for southamerican connections.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 3):
Several routes out of LIM have been launched this year: TA LIM-HAV [March 23th], TA LIM-SDQ [July 01st], TA LIM-GYE-CLO [August 16th] and TA LIM-MEX [November 01st].

In regards to the Caribbean region, LP started LIM-CTG earlier this year, and as previously mentioned LIM-PUJ-MIA is set to begin soon.


User currently offlineRCS763AV From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4395 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 14 hours ago) and read 4417 times:



Quoting OP3000 (Reply 2):
The other carrier that has not yet gotten into the mix much given their size and proximity is AV, besides a 4x weekly flight to SDQ and charters to PUJ.

And they are very strong in CUR and AUA.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 4):
AV's subsidiary SAM will soon operate BOG-CUR 5x weekly. 4C and Dutch Antilles Express both operate BOG-CUR 2x weekly. AV/SAM also operates BOG-AUA daily and BOG-PUJ weekly. As for AV entering the POS market in the future, it will be hard for them to compete with CM's service for southamerican connections.

Aires does not fly BOG-CUR, they fly BAQ-CUR and CTG-CUR, plus BAQ-AUA. AV/MM operate 4x weekly to CUR (2x AV, 2x MM), and soon MM will add one weekly frequency.

Avianca, though expanding slowly, only operated 5x weekly to AUA, 2x weekly to CUR and weekly charters to PUJ two years ago.



Les escribo desde el frío de mi verde altiplano.
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8816 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 13 hours ago) and read 4396 times:
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Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 5):
Aires does not fly BOG-CUR

I think they currently do fly the route with the F100 2x weekly.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 5):
Avianca, though expanding slowly, only operated 5x weekly to AUA, 2x weekly to CUR and weekly charters to PUJ two years ago.

According to AV's winter schedule, AV will operate BOG-AUA on Saturdays and Sundays, while SAM will operate BOG-AUA Monday thru Fridays. SAM will operate BOG-CUR 5x weekly effective 9/9/2009. AV 82/83 operates BOG-PUJ-BOG on Sundays only with the MD-83.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 1 hour ago) and read 4293 times:
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Quoting OP3000 (Thread starter):

For Brazil as far as i know, the expectations are:

- OceanAir probably will apply to fly to BOG (or TAM)
- TA is looking currently to upgrade LIM-GIG to daily using Sao Paulo frequencies
- LA is looking to begin flights to Europe in 2010/2011 using GIG as a stop
- BEL could get a link to the Caribbean
- CM have a focus to open a 5th destination in Brazil
- PU will begin later this year POA-MVD, its 4th destination in Brazil

And my expectations:

- There's space for a service BSB-Caribbean using 738/A320
- POA-SCL is a big missing point
- GIG-SCL is another missing point
- AR should begin flights to the Northeast (REC and SSA) from EZE next year



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineRCS763AV From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4395 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4228 times:



Quoting SCL767 (Reply 6):
I think they currently do fly the route with the F100 2x weekly.

For starters, Aires doesn't even have F100s. You are talking about DAE. 4C currently flies Dash-8s and 73Gs.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 6):
According to AV's winter schedule, AV will operate BOG-AUA on Saturdays and Sundays, while SAM will operate BOG-AUA Monday thru Fridays. SAM will operate BOG-CUR 5x weekly effective 9/9/2009. AV 82/83 operates BOG-PUJ-BOG on Sundays only with the MD-83.

It is still all being flown under the Avianca brand. SAM, as a company, will soon be merged into Avianca mainline. The only thing i didn't know was that AV itself has withdrawn form CUR.

What about Ecuador-caribbean flights? Is the market too small? Also, what are the frequencies of Venezuela-Dutch Antilles flights, there are tons of those....



Les escribo desde el frío de mi verde altiplano.
User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1059 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4188 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 7):
- GIG-SCL is another missing point

I'd include GIG-MEX and GIG-BOG in that list.



Please insert a "smart" joke here.
User currently offlineTurk223 From Barbados, joined Aug 2003, 397 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4167 times:

I'll only be happy once I see CM in BGI! It just seems to make the most sense - even as an add-on from POS?

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4114 times:
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Quoting AF086 (Reply 9):
I'd include GIG-MEX and GIG-BOG in that list.

But they won't come so soon. May be MX will realize soon how difficult is to compete on MEX-SAO.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1059 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4058 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
But they won't come so soon. May be MX will realize soon how difficult is to compete on MEX-SAO.

Indeed. I also wouldn't put my money on MX either. Given the current history it's more likely that they'll to leave Brazil altogether than to consider changing GRU for another station (GIG for that matter).

[Edited 2009-08-20 21:54:57]


Please insert a "smart" joke here.
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3972 times:
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Quoting AF086 (Reply 12):
Indeed. I also wouldn't put my money on MX either. Given the current history it's more likely that they'll to leave Brazil altogether than to consider changing GRU for another station (GIG for that matter).

I don't know, but for me is clear that without good numbers and profits, they probably wont continue with the flight, specially now that the cost is bigger. Loads of 25-30% are far from being profitable. The point is, how long they will wait for the profits.
At least they acknowledge they need Rio's market as all times they offer events in both markets (SAO / RIO)



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3966 times:



Quoting Turk223 (Reply 10):
I'll only be happy once I see CM in BGI! It just seems to make the most sense - even as an add-on from POS?

A tag-on from POS wouldn't work with the current PTY-POS-PTY schedule. Flyingtime would require 2 crews when the same crew flies to and from POS now. It'll have to be PTY-BGI non-stop, daytime with quick turn-around or R.O.N.
I think BGI hasn't tried that hard to entice CM to fly to the island, even if twice weekly E190. But everyone visiting a-net Caribbean topics knows that CM is extremelly stubburn when it comes to new routes to the non-Spanish speaking Caribbean.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6171 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3942 times:



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 14):
I think BGI hasn't tried that hard to entice CM to fly to the island, even if twice weekly E190. But everyone visiting a-net Caribbean topics knows that CM is extremelly stubburn when it comes to new routes to the non-Spanish speaking Caribbean.

That is about as true as statement as you will find...Look at BZE..there market is there for them ( even via GUA) ....they just need to add the service



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8816 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3926 times:
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Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 8):
4C currently flies Dash-8s and 73Gs.

My mistake, Aires also operates both BAQ-AUA and BAQ-CUR 2x weekly with the Dash-8.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 8):
It is still all being flown under the Avianca brand. SAM, as a company, will soon be merged into Avianca mainline. The only thing i didn't know was that AV itself has withdrawn form CUR.

IIRC, AV only operated a weekly BOG-CUR flight with the MD-83. Regardless, it's great to see AV/SAM increase frequency to 5x weekly on the route!

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 8):
What about Ecuador-caribbean flights? Is the market too small? Also, what are the frequencies of Venezuela-Dutch Antilles flights, there are tons of those....

TAME operates seasonal charters to AUA, CUR, HAV, MBJ*, POP, PUJ, and VRA from UIO. *MBJ will soon receive charter flights from UIO. 2K and ICARO both operate charters into AUA/CUR as well. There are many flights between Venezuela and Aruba and The Netherlands Antilles. Aruba is an autonomous unit within the Kingdom of the Netherlands and is no longer part of the Netherlands Antilles.


*Avior operates CCS-AUA, CCS-CUR, VLN-AUA, VLN-CUR and MAR-CUR (all flights operate 3x weekly with the B-737-200).
*Aires operates VLN-CUR daily and CCS-CUR 5x weekly (ATR-42). Aires will increase CCS-CUR to 13x weekly.
*Aserca operates both CCS-AUA 5x weekly and CCS-CUR 3x weekly (DC-9).
*Dutch Antilles Express operates CUR-VLN 6x weekly (F-100) and will increase frequency on the CCS-CUR route to 12x weekly.
*Insel Air operates daily nonstop flights between CUR and VLN (MD-82), CUR-LSP 3x weekly with the E-110.
*Tiara Air operates between AUA and LSP 3x daily.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 7):
- GIG-SCL is another missing point

It will not be another missing point next year.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 7):
- BEL could get a link to the Caribbean

Surinam Airways recently introduced a new service to BEL. PBM-CAY-BEL operates twice weekly with PY's newly acquired B733s. PY also operates a weekly nonstop B733 service between PBM and BEL as well.


User currently offline757MDE From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 1753 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3846 times:



Quoting SCL767 (Reply 16):
*Aires operates VLN-CUR daily and CCS-CUR 5x weekly (ATR-42). Aires will increase CCS-CUR to 13x weekly.

Aires?
Maybe you wanted to talk about other Venezuelan carrier and had a typo?



I gladly accept donations to pay for flight hours! This thing draws man...
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9820 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3830 times:



Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 8):
The only thing i didn't know was that AV itself has withdrawn form CUR.

That is news to me too because they still fly to CUR from BOG twice a week.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 16):
IIRC, AV only operated a weekly BOG-CUR flight with the MD-83.

Make that two weekly flights (Mondays & Thursdays).

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 16):
2K and ICARO both operate charters into AUA/CUR as well.

Only TAME has charterflights to CUR.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 16):
Aires operates VLN-CUR daily and CCS-CUR 5x weekly (ATR-42). Aires will increase CCS-CUR to 13x weekly.

I'm not sure which airline you are referring too here, but Aires only flies twice a week to CUR from Barranquilla, nothing more.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 16):
Surinam Airways

PY also flies from PBM/POS to CUR three times a week.

A388


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8816 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3816 times:
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Quoting A388 (Reply 18):
Only TAME has charterflights to CUR.

That's what I thought, thanks for clarifying. What a/c does TAME use into CUR.

Quoting A388 (Reply 18):
Make that two weekly flights (Mondays & Thursdays).

I believe their winter schedule only shows SAM operating BOG-CUR.

Quoting A388 (Reply 18):
PY also flies from PBM/POS to CUR three times a week.

YEP! Alongside Insel Air's CUR-PBM-CUR twice weekly nonstop service.

Quoting A388 (Reply 18):
Aires only flies twice a week to CUR from Barranquilla, nothing more.

OK, just looking at the winter schedules into CUR...can you clarify what other airlines fly between CUR and SDQ besides Dutch Antilles Express and Insel?


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9820 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3798 times:



Quoting SCL767 (Reply 19):
That's what I thought, thanks for clarifying.

No problem my friend  Smile

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 19):
OK, just looking at the winter schedules into CUR...can you clarify what other airlines fly between CUR and SDQ besides Dutch Antilles Express and Insel?

Currently R7, 7I and 9H fly to SDQ from CUR, either nonstop or via SXM. By the way, where are you looking up the winter schedule into CUR?

A388


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3750 times:
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Quoting SCL767 (Reply 16):
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 7):
- GIG-SCL is another missing point

It will not be another missing point next year.

Hope it materialize.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 16):
Surinam Airways recently introduced a new service to BEL. PBM-CAY-BEL operates twice weekly with PY's newly acquired B733s. PY also operates a weekly nonstop B733 service between PBM and BEL as well.

Thanks for the info. So it comes in addition to Air Caraibes service, right ?



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineOP3000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1766 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3594 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
Thanks for the info. So it comes in addition to Air Caraibes service, right ?

Thats correct - AFAIK Air Caraibes still operates PTP-CAY-BEL.


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3424 times:



Quoting SCL767 (Reply 4):
As for AV entering the POS market in the future, it will be hard for them to compete with CM's service for southamerican connections.

well interesting point is that Trinidad and Tobago is one of the few countrys (outside of SouthAmerica) that does not require Visa for Colombians.... so there should be a market ... and POS could be a interesting destination for a 3 or 4 x weekly F100 SAM operation....



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3402 times:



Quoting Avianca (Reply 23):
well interesting point is that Trinidad and Tobago is one of the few countrys (outside of SouthAmerica) that does not require Visa for Colombians.... so there should be a market ... and POS could be a interesting destination for a 3 or 4 x weekly F100 SAM operation....

If Colombians don't require visas to travel to T&T, that doesn't mean Colombians will flock to POS. If T&T wants Colombians to visit the country, better promote TAB in Colombia and get charters, as MBJ does from BOG and other Colombian cities.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
25 Caymanair : I think the question we need to ask is how big these South American markets really are for the Caribbean. Can countries like Colombia and Venezuela ac
26 Turk223 : As a matter of fact, Barbados doesn't require visas for Colombian visitors... but, what difference will it make if our government(s) doesn't/don't ma
27 Caymanair : Of course, if the English-speaking Caribbean really wanted to cater to non English speaking tourists, we would learn other languages. If you go to Cu
28 Turk223 : I agree with you 100% - for our nations which depend so much on tourism, it's US who need to adapt to the world market. That includes the South Ameri
29 Post contains links Hardiwv : As expected, Mexico traffic is recovering and this is also felt in Brazil-Mexico numbers. AM reported 70% load during July in GRU-MEX and MX introduc
30 SCL767 : Thanks for the clarification A388. LA will launch SCL-GIG-CDG next year. Actually, TX operates PTP-FDF-CAY-BEL 2x weekly with the E90! I do not think
31 Captaink : Personally I don't see what the big deal is. The English speaking Caribbean is very popular with German tourists, without us having to learn to Germa
32 AA1818 : Not just that. Spanish is supposedly spoken in TIDCO's Piarco office (not sure if it's true, it was told to me by a Gov't Official). Also, the Govern
33 LipeGIG : It will make GIG-CDG the only route between Europe and Brazil (South America ?) with Star, OneWorld and SkyTeam competing! As we discussed before, i
34 SCL767 : Your correct, Spanish is spoken at the TIDCO office at Piarco. They gave me a wide variety of information in Spanish last time I was there and I was
35 LipeGIG : Thanks. I shall consider your comments as LA has a very good product. I'm very glad LA will offer the non-stop SCL-GIG more than anything !
36 A388 : Based on my experience with Latin people and Europeans, I think Europeans are different compared to Spanish speaking Latin Americans. For Spanish spe
37 AlexEU : What is the demand between Panama City and Port of Spain? Are we going to see flights from Sint Maarten to Central America?
38 SurfandSnow : Europeans are probably the most open to foreign languages. We Americans rarely speak a 2nd language, and you don't just see us in the English-speakin
39 LH506 : Will the 319/320 have the legs to do espeically MEX-LIM nonstop?
40 SJOtoLIR : CM PTY-POS commenced as 4x weekly last year with the 100-seater E90. Today, the mentioned route is being scheduled as 6x weekly with 73G in most case
41 2travel2know : Althought there's some POS-PTY O/D traffic demand that can't be underrated, most CM traffic to/from POS is connections via CM PTY hub. Compare to KIN
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