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LAX - Moscow Not Profitable  
User currently offlineHeysfo From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 51 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8644 times:

CEO Savelyev revealed in an interview with the Russian business paper Vedomosti that 40% of the airline's routes are unprofitable, with the worst being Moscow-Los Angeles, losing $14 to $21 million a year. I can think of a few other Aeroflot route that could be worse

Why is that route so bad for them?

80 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32794 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8655 times:



Quoting Heysfo (Thread starter):
Why is that route so bad for them?

Easy. It is all low-yield VFR traffic. Same reason Aeroflot does not fly to Chicago, Miami and Seattle, despite the huge Russian communities in all three.



a.
User currently offlineHeysfo From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8592 times:

PAL must have the same issues only LAX SFO and YVR, LAS for the gamblers?

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8561 times:

There's a very large Russian community in Los Angeles. Spread around a few neighborhoods, including Sherman Oaks/Encino.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32794 posts, RR: 72
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8543 times:



Quoting Heysfo (Reply 2):
LAS for the gamblers?

LAS has a very large Filipino community.



a.
User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1963 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8441 times:

I've wondered how that flight does as well. I'm surprised it's a money loser. How do the connections come into play? Connections to the rest of Russia, Armenia, eastern Europe?


My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlineDallasnewark From Estonia, joined Nov 2005, 495 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 8417 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
There's a very large Russian community in Los Angeles. Spread around a few neighborhoods, including Sherman Oaks/Encino.

Not really. A huge Armenian community is there, but Armenians are as much Russian as you are a Mexican.

It is common practice in US to label everyone from the ex Soviet Union as Russian.

What is the best profitable route from Moscow to North America, is it JFK-SVO or IAH-DME?



B732/3/4/5/6/7/8/9, B742/4, B752/3,B762/3/4, B772/3, A306, A318/9/20/21, A332/3, A343/6, MD80/83/88, L1011, TU104/134, F
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26499 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 8407 times:



Quoting Heysfo (Reply 2):
PAL must have the same issues only LAX SFO and YVR, LAS for the gamblers?

Except that the Philippines is a relatively high yield VFR destination, as passengers have fewer choices and take lots of extra bags and cargo, specifically Balikbayan Boxes.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):

LAS has a very large Filipino community.

Yep. Anywhere you need a lot of high skilled hospitality workers willing to work for a discount over their counterparts. A lot of Filipinos in L.A. work for hotels and cruise lines.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
There's a very large Russian community in Los Angeles. Spread around a few neighborhoods, including Sherman Oaks/Encino.

Yes, but they are not a high yield bunch of travelers. Additionally, a lot of the Russians (who are often actually Ukrainians) don't necessarily travel to Russia. This is either because they are actually Ukrainian, are Jewish and thus have terrible memories of treatment under the Soviets or both.

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 5):
I've wondered how that flight does as well. I'm surprised it's a money loser. How do the connections come into play? Connections to the rest of Russia, Armenia, eastern Europe?

Eastern Europe, not so much, but Aeroflot has tried to pull traffic from the European carriers on the high yield VFR routes to Armenia and Iran, with little success. Aeroflot often tries to undercut the EU carriers and still loses out.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineCrosswinds21 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 698 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 8387 times:



Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 6):
Not really. A huge Armenian community is there, but Armenians are as much Russian as you are a Mexican.

It is common practice in US to label everyone from the ex Soviet Union as Russian.

What is the best profitable route from Moscow to North America, is it JFK-SVO or IAH-DME?

It's gotta be the NYC-MOW market. I can't imagine it being anything else. NYC has such a high number of Russians that it's hard to believe that any other route could be more profitable.


User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32794 posts, RR: 72
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 8377 times:



Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 6):
Not really. A huge Armenian community is there, but Armenians are as much Russian as you are a Mexican.

Um, yes, really. Second largest Russian community in North America is in Los Angeles and Russians are the largest European immigrant group in SoCal.

Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 6):
What is the best profitable route from Moscow to North America, is it JFK-SVO or IAH-DME?

It is definitely not IAH-DME. That route is probably on its last legs.



a.
User currently offlineAaway From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1523 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 8262 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
There's a very large Russian community in Los Angeles. Spread around a few neighborhoods, including Sherman Oaks/Encino.

Lots residing in the Hollywood and West Hollywood areas.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Quoting Heysfo (Reply 2):
PAL must have the same issues only LAX SFO and YVR, LAS for the gamblers?

Except that the Philippines is a relatively high yield VFR destination, as passengers have fewer choices and take lots of extra bags and cargo, specifically Balikbayan Boxes.

Trust me, whatever PR might (stress, might) lack in yields are more than made up in excess baggage charges  Silly



With a choice between changing one's mind & proving there's no need to do so, most everyone gets busy on the proof.
User currently offlineNetjetsINTL From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7980 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
There's a very large Russian community in Los Angeles. Spread around a few neighborhoods, including Sherman Oaks/Encino

The Russian community is big in all California, lots of Russians in San Fran as well.....maybe this is one of those routes they feel have to serve just to provide a service not to make a buck


User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7924 times:

Didn't AA report the best yields in the US to Russia market on ORD-DME not too long ago? I can't find the thread right now...

Plus SVO-LAX is really pushing the limits of the 763. It used to be the longest non-stop flight on a 763, not sure if it still is. A low-yield, 13 hour flight probably isn't good for anybody.

-A



What now?
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1579 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7890 times:



Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 12):
Didn't AA report the best yields in the US to Russia market on ORD-DME not too long ago? I can't find the thread right now...

That might include connecting traffic though, since even though connecting pax are not "paying'" for the flight in the same way O&D are, revenue still gets allocated to it (so if they are getting good connecting fares to balance out VFR O&D traffic from Chicagoland, it works out).


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23027 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7642 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
Second largest Russian community in North America is in Los Angeles and Russians are the largest European immigrant group in SoCal.

Maybe the more relevant question is whether this is the reason they've kept LAX even though they've left places like ORD. Is the bulk the answer? Given the length of MOW-LAX, the bulk apparently isn't enough.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMarcinGDN From Poland, joined Jun 2008, 101 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7379 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
Um, yes, really. Second largest Russian community in North America is in Los Angeles and Russians are the largest European immigrant group in SoCal.

really surprising to me. Where did you get it from?



Terra Incognita
User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32794 posts, RR: 72
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7330 times:



Quoting MarcinGDN (Reply 15):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
Um, yes, really. Second largest Russian community in North America is in Los Angeles and Russians are the largest European immigrant group in SoCal.

really surprising to me. Where did you get it from?

I'm always surprised that people find it surprising. Maybe because I live here, but the Russian influence is incredibly huge. Public city meetings in the Hollywood-area even have Russian translators present.

http://www.articlesbase.com/news-and...mmunity-in-los-angeles-331592.html

That article does not state LA ranks second, but other articles ( http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/rusorg3.htm ) do. I actually believe it might have fallen to third largest behind Miami in the past few years, as Miami has been the primary point of Russian immigration to the United States for the past decade.



a.
User currently offlineQuestAir From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 367 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7281 times:

Aeroflot's CEO apparently said about the route, "If there's demand and good capacity, then why dump it?" It looks like they think they can make it profitable by next year, according to this article, which also has a good run down of the financials:

"$14m to $21m loss on the LAX flight?!? I don't remember how frequently it operated last winter, but it's scheduled to run about 4.5 times a week over the next year. That's 234 flights per year at a loss of between $60,000 and $90,000 per flight. The 767s have 229 seats, so they're losing $262 to $393 on every single seat that flies."



'Do we carry rich people on our flights? Yes, I flew on one this morning and I�m very rich.' - Michael O'Leary
User currently offlinePellegrine From France, joined Mar 2007, 2449 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7204 times:



Quoting QuestAir (Reply 17):
"$14m to $21m loss on the LAX flight?!? I don't remember how frequently it operated last winter, but it's scheduled to run about 4.5 times a week over the next year. That's 234 flights per year at a loss of between $60,000 and $90,000 per flight. The 767s have 229 seats, so they're losing $262 to $393 on every single seat that flies."

I'm sorry but that does not indicate, "about to turn a profit". To make up a loss of $300-400 per seat? I'm confused at this CEO. If anything though they should cut it to 3x weekly, that would help raise yields while offering a similar frequency.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7174 times:



Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 6):
It is common practice in US to label everyone from the ex Soviet Union as Russian.

So you are not only wrong, but you try to label me as a ignorant for knowing more than you do?

I lived in Sherman Oaks for 5 years, guy. I know who lives in my community. Not only are there Russians and Russian owned stores and restaurants, but there is even some Russian mafia "helping" with the porn industry and land development. We actually had four people disappear who were later found in the bottom of a lake up north from Sherman Oaks due to the Russian mafia.

I do believe there is a much larger population in Hollywood, and I know that Persians are slowly pushing Russians out of the Sherman Oaks/Encino area.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
Um, yes, really. Second largest Russian community in North America is in Los Angeles and Russians are the largest European immigrant group in SoCal.

I think he was being more specific to that area of LA.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineCws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1176 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7083 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 19):


Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 6):
It is common practice in US to label everyone from the ex Soviet Union as Russian.

So you are not only wrong, but you try to label me as a ignorant for knowing more than you do?

I lived in Sherman Oaks for 5 years, guy. I know who lives in my community. Not only are there Russians and Russian owned stores and restaurants, but there is even some Russian mafia "helping" with the porn industry and land development. We actually had four people disappear who were later found in the bottom of a lake up north from Sherman Oaks due to the Russian mafia.

I do believe there is a much larger population in Hollywood, and I know that Persians are slowly pushing Russians out of the Sherman Oaks/Encino area.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
Um, yes, really. Second largest Russian community in North America is in Los Angeles and Russians are the largest European immigrant group in SoCal.

I think he was being more specific to that area of LA.

Indeed. I live in Sherman Oaks, as well, and I can assure you that there is a large Russian contingent from Studio City across to Encino. You are probably just as likely, if not more likely, to hear Russian spoken than Spanish.



volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
User currently offlineBorism From Estonia, joined Oct 2006, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7023 times:



Quoting Cws818 (Reply 20):
You are probably just as likely, if not more likely, to hear Russian spoken than Spanish.

Many immigrants from ex-USSR speak Russian. That doesn't make them russian though, as the fact that you speak English doesn't make you english either. Capish?


User currently offlineCws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1176 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6995 times:



Quoting Borism (Reply 21):


Quoting Cws818 (Reply 20):
You are probably just as likely, if not more likely, to hear Russian spoken than Spanish.

Many immigrants from ex-USSR speak Russian. That doesn't make them russian though, as the fact that you speak English doesn't make you english either. Capish?

I did not say that ALL were Russian; many, however, are Russian. Regardless of by whom, a great deal of Russian is spoken in this part of town. I meant no disrespect to any non-Russian former Soviet citizens.



volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
User currently offlineJfk787nyc From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 812 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6982 times:

Actually, The New York (Russians) are actually New York Ukrainians as 90% of them arrived from there. But, they have massive contact and travel back and fourth between New York and Moscow.

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26499 posts, RR: 75
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6925 times:



Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 12):

Plus SVO-LAX is really pushing the limits of the 763. It used to be the longest non-stop flight on a 763, not sure if it still is. A low-yield, 13 hour flight probably isn't good for anybody.

That part really isn't much of an issue. The range is fine, it is a matter of yields.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):

I'm always surprised that people find it surprising. Maybe because I live here, but the Russian influence is incredibly huge. Public city meetings in the Hollywood-area even have Russian translators present.

As mentioned before, while a lot are actually Russian, a huge number are Ukrainians.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
25 Md11dude : What about Toronto-Moscow? Is that making profit?
26 Dallasnewark : I was not trying to make you ignorant, if it seemed that way than I apologize. My point was that a lot of ex USSR residents are being dubbed as Russi
27 FlyPIJets : off topic, but... It may be an industry accepted term, but, I really dislike that we use VFR to describe passenger traffic. VFR already has such a st
28 N1120A : I don't think anyone confuses Armenians and Russians in Los Angeles, as Armenians never, ever identify as Russian. Also, the areas he was talking abo
29 Dallasnewark : Mark, if you would say ex-Soviet, you'd be more correct. And like Borism correctly pointed out that just because you speak the language, doesn't make
30 N1120A : It is pretty hard to argue that those from the Caucuses are European, both culturally and geographically. Further, given the huge number of Iranian A
31 Dallasnewark : Geographically they are European as the Caucuses is in Europe unless the the borderline of Europe and Asia has moved lately.
32 Luckyone : For the most part Armenians are very UN-likely to speak Russian unless speaking to other Russians. Russian is dying out as well in the Armenian diaspo
33 JRadier : Is it me or is that a huge contradiction? Cutting frequency so you can offer a similar frequency?
34 WROORD : A lot of true Russians in LA and SF area are pre-communist revolution population, that has lost contact with their former motherland and may not be i
35 Flyibaby : I remember the russian pawn shop in hollywood in the movie Be Cool!
36 N1120A : That is debatable, given that they are on the border and that not only is the vast majority of Turkey in Asia, but that the Caucuses stretch into Ira
37 MAH4546 : If they are not interested in flying to Russia, then why is LA-Moscow such a large O&D market?
38 UN_b732 : To the person who posted about Toronto to Moscow, I believe SU is dropping that, not sure about UN. -A
39 Aeroflot777 : I live in SF, and am 100% Russian. From personal experience I can say that there are A LOT of "true" Russians that are not part of the pre-communist
40 LACA773 : If this route is doing poorly for SU, will they reduce it to three times a week. There was talk about Aeroflot bringing the 332 to LAX. They shelved t
41 GVroyphx : Guys - C'mon...it's not about population here...it's about product. Aeroflot doesn't have a product people are willing to bend over backwards to fly o
42 Cubsrule : If that were true, wouldn't LO have ceded ORD-Poland to LH and UA?
43 LAXdude1023 : I flew them from LAX to MOW. It was about the same level of service youd get on an American based carrier.
44 MHTripple7 : Haha, DL's 763's are not that great -- trust me!
45 LACA773 : There soft products have improved in both cabins an d would be greatly improved if, and that's a big if, they brought in their new 330s on the North
46 Addd : The problem with the route is the same as with any other "ethnic" transatlantic route - very little to no business or high-end tourist traffic, it's a
47 MAH4546 : They do not come close to matching UA or AA's 763s, nor DL's 764s. All three have a modern business class product with lie-flat seats. UA and DL have
48 JAGflyer : I believe SU was out of the YYZ market for several months or at least considered it due to Transaero's introduction of their YYZ-DME flights and the
49 Pellegrine : In my view 3x/week is about the lowest a route like this can go and remain viable. Any lower than that and it isn't very worthwhile since this is not
50 MAH4546 : No, it really is pretty much just VFR. The Russian community in LA is huge, and many fly home often. Russians in general tend to fly home often, whet
51 Pellegrine : Granted but this is LA and Moscow, two cities with substantial wealth, big spenders, and the jet-set. Is it that one dimensional? Or maybe the one di
52 MAH4546 : I'm willing to bet the premium traffic is certainly not flying Aeroflot.
53 Pellegrine : Touché.
54 Addd : I think there is just very little of it between LA and Moscow to begin with. Premium traffic is first and foremost business traffic, and there is not
55 Post contains images LACA773 : When SU decided not to bring their 330s to LAX was it because this is mainly a leisure route as well as the capacity is a big jump from the 763s? The
56 Addd : They do indeed, but there are only three of them in SU fleet so far, and Aeroflot (wisely) decided to use them on higher-yielding Asian routes.
57 BMI727 : If Aeroflot can't make it work, do any of you think that there is a chance that S7 or TransAero could pull it off?
58 LACA773 : How many 330s will they receive when they have taken delivery of their order?
59 Addd : Total of 10 IIRC
60 MAH4546 : Actually, yes, LA is probably high on the list of the Moscow "jet setter," alongside Nice, Miami Beach, Goa, the Maldives and other popular leisure d
61 Iahredhead : Out of curiosity, how badly does IAH - DME perform? Do you really think SQ will pull the plug in the near future? Does Houston have more business lin
62 Aeroflot777 : While in the U.S. that might be true because of brand recognition, SU's Business product throughout Europe is actually better than competition, hence
63 Dallasnewark : You forgot to add London to that list, possible the favorite destination along the so called Moscow "Elite"
64 MogandoCI : Since both Aeroflot and DL are in SkyTeam, maybe if DL further develops LAX into a focus city and provide sufficient feed, a code-shared LAX-SVO/DME f
65 UN_B732 : I have to agree with Aeroflot777 about the Bay Area to Russia being a large market. DL47 is a single flight number SVO-ATL-SFO. From what I've heard S
66 BestWestern : You obviously dont fly Aeroflot very often The premium russian traffic flies Aeroflot - they certainly dont fly on 20 year old Transaero aircraft. SU
67 Post contains links FlyingSicilian : Go here: http://www.fly2houston.com/newsTraffic You can see the numbers for yourself. It seems a lot more traffic is going to Singapore. With J and t
68 Iahredhead : Ok. I'll check out that website. Do you think SQ would reroute the flight via Asia to get to SIN like it does one flight to LAX and both SFO flights?
69 LACA773 : I remember back in the early 90s seeing a Transaero D10-30 pushing back from TBIT as I was taxing in from PHL on a US 762. It appeared to me the Tran
70 Aeroflot777 : Obviously there are always exceptions. But JFK-SVO is a very strong route with people connecting from ALL over the country. With DL it's also a very
71 MAH4546 : They don't fly either. They are flying the likes of Air France and British Airways. Moscow is a huge transfer point for trans-Atlantic traffic on all
72 UN_B732 : I wish there were statistics to back that up - I always thought the premium traffic would choose the non-stop with an excellent biz product, not trekk
73 RedChili : While I totally agree with you that Armenians, Ukrainians, et al are not Russians, I could see at least two reasons why Armenians would fly to Moscow
74 Aeroflot777 : Exactly, People don't realize how many nationalities actually live in Russia. Moscow is full of citizens from ex-Soviet countries that come to the bi
75 RedChili : Yes, and it's especially true for Armenians. One Armenian guy I know told me that when Putin became president, he spoke to the Armenian president and
76 Flighty : The problem with Aeroflot is they are not closely integrated with American business. So, when US business travelers go to Moscow, they are unlikely to
77 BestWestern : Until you try them. Aeroflot are a modern, quality airline, with a super short haul product, and a fleet transformation plan that puts virtually all
78 Aeroflot777 : Aeroflot777
79 Decoder : Agreed. VFR traffic is aircraft flying under Visual Flight Rules. Jet transports don't generally fly under VFR. Furthermore, "low yield VFR traffic"
80 Cubsrule : ...but US business travelers won't try them. That's the point.
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