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A Juicy EAS Bid: APN EAU CMX INL MKG CIU PAH TUP  
User currently offlineJA From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 566 posts, RR: 1
Posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3958 times:

Let's talk about the firestorm erupting in these markets over being placed into the EAS pool. They are not happy about it at all. I've seen their numbers...they are stellar for EAS standards.

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWeb From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 427 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3900 times:

Interesting to note that all of these airports are served solely by DL. Also, MKG certainly does not need to be EASed due to its proximity to GRR. Even being considered for a SCASD grant would be giving MKG too much credit.


Next flight: GRR-ORD-PDX-SEA-ORD-GRR
User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3818 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3877 times:



Quoting JA (Thread starter):
They are not happy about it at all. I've seen their numbers...they are stellar for EAS standards.

I assume the airlines are raking it in then. That must be why they need a subsidy to continue service.

If they are doing relatively well compared to other eas cities, fine. EAS could use some cities that actually need air service.


User currently offlineFlyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2005 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3854 times:

Why would they not be happy about being placed into the EAS pool? I would think Michigan would want all the money they can take right now.

I wonder if this has anything to do with the fact the Delta Saabs are being reduced and there are only a couple of Saabs in DTW.


User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3942 posts, RR: 28
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3837 times:

EAS does not = profits. Yes, they have guaranteed subsidies. But it is still up to the operator to keep costs in line, to maintain the profit margin. Mesaba recaptured the HIB EAS contract, and will even add a 3rd flight. These communities ought to be happy about becoming EAS cities... it then makes it even harder for an airline to drop service to their city.

Ryan - the saab fleet can be shuffled. Only 10 are getting parked at this point and with many markets upgaging to RJs because of the merger, there can be more flexibility.


User currently offlineJA From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 566 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3754 times:

The DOT is reducing most markets to two 34 seaters per day. They feel that they are being artificially constrained to fewer flights than they could support. CMX has a legitimate complaint as they are generating 134 trips per day. They would have capacity problems if Mesaba keeps using Saabs. Right now, Mesaba is running one extra flight for them to avoid that issue. MKG could also have that issue too if they recover any of the passengers they lost last year.

I assume the issue for DL is generating that premium for smaller communities.


User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2464 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3693 times:
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Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 3):
I would think Michigan would want all the money they can take right now.

None of this money goes to Michigan, unless a Michigan based carrier wins it. And IIRC, there aren't any flying sched service at this time.

I assume we'll see the list of the same operatives for these.



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineFlyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2005 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3646 times:



Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 6):
None of this money goes to Michigan, unless a Michigan based carrier wins it. And IIRC, there aren't any flying sched service at this time.

Indirectly it does as it employs people at the airports. Not to mention the airline will have to pay landing fees, etc.

Quoting JA (Reply 5):
The DOT is reducing most markets to two 34 seaters per day. They feel that they are being artificially constrained to fewer flights than they could support. CMX has a legitimate complaint as they are generating 134 trips per day.

If that's the case, why are they even getting EAS? I mean, if they are able to fly more flights then what the DOT awarded, theoretically shouldn't that mean they would be profitable without the EAS? I guess I don't understand the EAS program well enough.


User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2464 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3572 times:
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Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 7):
Indirectly it does

OK, I didn't think of that. But I'd bet whomever wins contracts will use same or less of the same folks.



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3942 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3564 times:

Yawn... there really aren't any serious contenders for any of this EAS stuff. Mesaba will get the award and if not, DL might just follow through with the threat and drop service.

User currently offlineYeogeo From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 882 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3415 times:

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 9):
there really aren't any serious contenders for any of this EAS stuff. Mesaba will get the award and if not, DL might just follow through with the threat and drop service.

There's not a chance that Republic/YX would what to pick any of these up for their MKE hub? (Does Republic operate anything small enough?) YX used to operate from MKE to several, although I don't recall if they were Essential Air Service flying.

Can you pick and choose destinations or do you have to take the whole lot?

For those who aren't fluent in airport code (like me), they're here for cursor translation:

EAU CMX INL MKG CIU PAH TUP
edit: Well that didn't work very well (they really need to get on the ball with codes
 grumpy  )
yeo

[Edited 2009-08-21 16:41:26]


Yokoso! to my world
User currently offlineYeogeo From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 882 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3378 times:

Here's the whole list, translated:

APN Alpena MI
EAU Eau Claire WI
CMX Hancock/Houghton MI
INL International Falls MN
MKG Muskegon MI
CIU Sault Ste Marie MI
PAH Paducah KY
TUP Tupelo MS

and a handy list of US Commercial Airport Codes:
http://aerofiles.com/airport-codes.html



Yokoso! to my world
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3354 times:

I expect MWA to be up if Marion does not renew ZK's contract in november and it sound slike here locally that ZK won't be here past November.

Any new updates on that?

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineWhatUsaid From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 667 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3337 times:

Can I ask a simple question? Do we really need EAS? Take a look at Great Lakes operations in and out of ONT and justify the expense.

Are the cities in MI so isolated or so dependent upon their EAS service that the expense is justified? I'd like to hear some serious arguments in defense of continuing EAS in MI or anywhere for that matter (but that's another post).


User currently offlineMke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2458 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3315 times:



Quoting Yeogeo (Reply 10):
There's not a chance that Republic/YX would what to pick any of these up for their MKE hub? (Does Republic operate anything small enough?) YX used to operate from MKE to several, although I don't recall if they were Essential Air Service flying.

YX flew MKE-MKG with B1900s and then also flew the route with CRJs for a bit after the nineteen seaters were removed from the fleet. (Although I think the CRJ flights were through GRR or FNT)



Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
User currently offlineYeogeo From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 882 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3288 times:



Quoting Yeogeo (Reply 10):
YX used to operate from MKE to several, although I don't recall if they were Essential Air Service flying.



Quoting Mke717spotter (Reply 14):
YX flew MKE-MKG with B1900s and then also flew the route with CRJs for a bit

You're right-it was just one station on the list, not several, like I said.

yeo



Yokoso! to my world
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23086 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3267 times:



Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 13):
Are the cities in MI so isolated or so dependent upon their EAS service that the expense is justified?

I can't speak for Michigan, but I can look at PAH. PAH is a bit more than 2 hours from BNA, the nearest airport with a decent level of commercial service. EVV is about 2 1/2 hours, and STL is somewhat more than that. Is that isolated enough? I'll let you answer...



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5126 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3167 times:



Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 13):


Can I ask a simple question? Do we really need EAS?

There's a can of worms you opened with good arguments on both sides. Good luck finding any form of agreement on that topic.



Ozark Flies Your Way
User currently offlineJA From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 566 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3142 times:



Quoting Yeogeo (Reply 10):
There's not a chance that Republic/YX would what to pick any of these up for their MKE hub? (Does Republic operate anything small enough?) YX used to operate from MKE to several, although I don't recall if they were Essential Air Service flying.

It would make sense to do it if they have the aircraft. In theory, the whole thing could be run from MDW/ORD and MKE is close enough to make sense.

Quoting Yeogeo (Reply 10):
Can you pick and choose destinations or do you have to take the whole lot?

You can pick and choose.


User currently offlineFlyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2005 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3076 times:

I was thinking if CO wanted to make the CLE hub stronger and Gulfstream had the aircraft, they could easily bid the MI cities. While the DL/DTW hub would be a stronger hub, CO/CLE would probably be cheaper. Just a thought...

User currently offlineYXwatcherMKE From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1005 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2919 times:

YX did have service to several of the cities in this EAS group with both the B1900 and the 328's. Now the New YX(Republic) will be operating the CRJ-135 and CRJ-145's. the 135's are 37 passenger a/c so could it be possible, Yes. Will they, that is the $64,000 question. It would be really nice that they would bring back some of these cities back. EAU is in state, that should be a no brainer, MKG, Muskegon, MI was a good route for quite some time why it stopped I'm not sure. I worked for a company that we were always using that route. They had me to run parts to the airport all the time to ride the MKG flights to be picked up by our sister office in MKG. And at least once a week two of us were round tripping MKE-MKG. If my memory serves me correctly YX connect also went to APN/Alpena, MI and CMX/Hancock/Houghton, MI. At any rate, It would be a way to re-build the MKE YX hub.


I miss the 60's & 70's when you felt like a guest on the plane not cattle like today
User currently offlineTys777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 404 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2904 times:



Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 13):
Are the cities in MI so isolated or so dependent upon their EAS service that the expense is justified?

in Michigan probably more so than some of the southern cities that get it.

for example

APN Driving time to

TVC 3 1/4 hours
LAN 4 hours
DTW 4 1/4 hours

MQT

Closest is probably GRB at 6 hours.

The thing to remember with the Michigan Cities is that most of them are in the upper, or are in the northern portion of the lower, and those can be some remote areas.



Is it bad that I get excited to see even a CRJ overfly? Man, what this place does to you
User currently offlineOcracoke From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 682 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2894 times:



Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 13):
Are the cities in MI so isolated or so dependent upon their EAS service that the expense is justified? I'd like to hear some serious arguments in defense of continuing EAS in MI or anywhere for that matter (but that's another post).

I'm not going to defend or wail against the merits EAS, but some of the mentioned Michigan cities are a bit out of the way.

Take Sault Ste Marie, for example. Closest USA airport is just shy of a 1 1/2 drive, and that being the tiny little airport of PLN. Closest decent size airport with more than one airline is TVC, which is right around a 3 hour drive. Going to both PLN/TVC requires a drive across the Mackinac bridge, which when it has to close (the bridge has been totally shut down in the past before), leaves Sault Ste Marie passengers stranded going south.

Alpena, on the eastern side of the state, doesn't really sit on a good road grid system. From APN one could go all the way across the state to TVC on county roads, or head south to MBS, also on county roads, with the last little part on I75. I've never driven either of the two, but if I had to guess, I'd say at least 3 hours.

The Houghton/Copper Harbor area sits in probably the snowiest area of the entire country. Though the snow plowing system of upper Michigan is good, it makes for very slow driving trying to get through snow storm after snow storm, on icy county roads all the way to either DLH, MSP or GRB (your closest- decent sized airports). I've driven Houghton to Duluth in the summer, and it was close to 5 hours. I wouldnt want to guess what it would take during a snow storm, which seem to happen non stop up there durning the winter months (lake effect snow).

I could see people from those communities having strong cases as to why they should keep EAS service.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23086 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2814 times:



Quoting YXwatcherMKE (Reply 20):
YX did have service to several of the cities in this EAS group with both the B1900 and the 328's. Now the New YX(Republic) will be operating the CRJ-135 and CRJ-145's. the 135's are 37 passenger a/c so could it be possible,

The -135s aren't real economical, though. Is there any plan to keep them beyond when RP can get its hands on enough larger ERJs to cover the flying?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineYXwatcherMKE From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1005 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2754 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):

[quote] I don't have a pileline to BB but I sure wish I did.  If I did I would be talking with daily,but to your question yuor guess is as good as mine as to how long the 135's and 145 will stay in the YX connect operations.
Sidebar here: how in the world do you get the text you are quoting to show up in the post your doing?



I miss the 60's & 70's when you felt like a guest on the plane not cattle like today
25 Tys777 : Select the text then click on the quote button. That should do the trick.
26 MtnWest1979 : As for EAS in general, I think the premise is decent, but some of the proximity of awarded airports seems illogical. For example, do both Grand Island
27 Cubsrule : There's a better business case for the 145s. They likely carry 50 passengers much more cheaply than a 170 could. In contrast, the 135 and the 145 hav
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