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DOT Blames Mesaba For ExpressJet/CoEx Nightmare  
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Posted (4 years 11 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 12056 times:

From the Dallas Morning News' aviation blog, the DOT has apparently placed blame for the CO 2816 debacle at RST a few weeks ago.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/a...ot-blames-cal-rochester-delay.html

Apparently, Mesaba was the only carrier able to assist ExpressJet at RST, and erroneously told the ExpressJet captain (who was pleading to disembark the passengers) that the lack of TSA screening prohibited them from getting off the plane.

Interesting development, for sure. Does ExpressJet have any claim against Mesaba for this?


"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
126 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1860 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11963 times:

I don't understand why the CO crew could only communicate with somebody from Mesaba. Couldn't they communicate directly with the airport staff or TSA? This doesn't make sense to me.

User currently offlinePremoBrimo From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 425 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11949 times:

This doesn't make any sense considering another NW flight arrived later that night and was able to disembark. I assume this situation just turned into a bunch of he said/she said. Mistakes were made, learn from it and move on.


Now You're Flying Smart.
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11903 times:



Quoting PremoBrimo (Reply 2):
This doesn't make any sense considering another NW flight arrived later that night and was able to disembark.

I think the NW flight terminated at RST, and therefore the passengers were allowed off even though there were no TSA personnel, because they would not be re-boarding the flight.

The CO flight was continuing to MSP. According to the Mesaba rep, they could not let the passengers off, because there would be no one to re-screen them when they re-boarded the plane to go on to MSP. Turns out, this was incorrect -- as long as the pax were kept in a sterile area, there was no need to re-screen.

Quoting Tharanga (Reply 1):
I don't understand why the CO crew could only communicate with somebody from Mesaba. Couldn't they communicate directly with the airport staff or TSA?

No one from TSA was there. And at a small airport like RST, there may have not been any other staff capable of handling their request other than that of Mesaba. Plus, neither CO nor ExpressJet serves RST regularly, which added to the problem/confusion.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlinePremoBrimo From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 425 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11872 times:

No, there was another diversion of a NW Airbus that was able to disembark and NW bussed them to MSP

I think this finding is complete bull. Local news out of the Twin Cities interviewed the airport manager and he stated that the airport was open and that the pilot was told that the passengers could be let off into the sterile area. So unless he's lying this shows the pilot could have made a decision.

[Edited 2009-08-21 08:54:53]


Now You're Flying Smart.
User currently offlineYtib From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 567 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11839 times:

Instead of blaming someone why don't they work on trying to resolve the issues which caused this to happen so they can be prepared at any airport the next time this occurs which it will.

Also, CO should have just stood up and taken the sword for the problem at hand from day one and not try to defer to someone else. This would have given them a lot of good will in the public, internally they could have looked at the issue and seen who was at fault.


User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 11624 times:

From CO:
Continental Airlines Responds to DOT Findings on Flight 2816
HOUSTON, Aug. 21 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Continental Airlines (NYSE: CAL) Chairman and CEO Larry Kellner today issued the following statement regarding Continental Express Flight 2816 (operated by ExpressJet Airlines), which was subjected to a lengthy ground delay following a weather diversion to Rochester, Minn., on Aug. 8, 2009.

Kellner is responding to the findings of a U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) investigation (see DOT news release) that the ExpressJet crew was not at fault and that the local representative of Mesaba Airlines (a wholly-owned subsidiary of Delta Air Lines [NYSE: DAL]), improperly refused the requests of the captain to let her passengers off the plane.

"Continental takes responsibility for the care of its customers, whether they are on our regional partners' flights or our own," Kellner said. "We are gratified that Secretary LaHood recognized the crew's efforts to resolve the situation.

"While the result for the customers was clearly unacceptable, it is evident that the ExpressJet crew worked through the night to resolve the situation and was frustrated with Delta Connection's failure to provide reasonable assistance.

"We have processes in place to avoid these situations and those processes clearly broke down in this case. We are working to ensure that doesn't happen again," Kellner said.


http://www.continental.com/web/en-US...apps/vendors/default.aspx?i=PRNEWS



Ciao Windjet mi manchi
User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21488 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 11624 times:

Something doesn't add up here - why was the NW flight allowed to deplane but this one wasn't? I assume XJ does the handling for NW - are they the only company at the airport? AE flies in there - who do they use for ground handling?

I noticed that the article didn't have a link to the DOT report that it cites - does anyone know where to get that? I couldn't find it on the DOT website.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently onlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5340 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days ago) and read 11459 times:

I still put it all on the pilot of the flight. I don't care what she was told by whomever it was on the ground -- if I have a plane full of passengers sitting on the gound under the conditions of that night, after about 45 minutes, I open the door, and everyone is off the a/c and into the terminal. I deal with the consequences later (which is how it's coming down anyway.) How could anyone accept the decision of some unknown person over a radio or phone saying, "All of you just sit there on the a/c until morning. Have a good night; see you tomorrow morning."

She's the captain of the ship, she's responsible for the safety and well-being of her passengers and the hell with policy, procedures, and regulations!

bb


User currently offlineFlyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2000 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days ago) and read 11329 times:



Quoting SANFan (Reply 9):
She's the captain of the ship, she's responsible for the safety and well-being of her passengers and the hell with policy, procedures, and regulations!

But if the place is closed and locked you just let them sit out on the ramp? That's not the right thing to do. If your car is broke down and out in the middle of no where and you have only one house and they won't let you in or no one is home, would you go break in? No...

Does RST have a 24 hour FBO? I'm sure they could've assisted in some way or another also. This is just a comedy of errors so to speak. Maybe XJT should've diverted to MSN where CO flies instead? The circumstance behind this is very rare and trying to plan for this is very difficult to do. There can't be one person to blame at all, but others should've stepped up - ex the Mesaba station could've called their manager who should have the TSA numbers. The Pilot should've asked the tower for the Airport Police for assistance, etc. Sometimes the stars don't align and this is what happens. Out of the ordinary occurrences need out of the ordinary thinking and that's clearly what happened here. Time to move on and learn not to let it happen again. Plain and simple - sometimes sh*t happens and the best thing to do is learn and get over it.

*ok off of my soap box*


User currently offlineJetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2761 posts, RR: 33
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days ago) and read 11259 times:



Quoting SANFan (Reply 9):
if I have a plane full of passengers sitting on the ground under the conditions of that night, after about 45 minutes, I open the door, and everyone is off the a/c and into the terminal.

So,
Option A) you open the door on the ramp and let people air side (assuming no jetways at RST)

Option B) If there are jetways, you marshal the aircraft in yourself, with no assistance from ground personnel.

Option C) If there are no jetways, you marshal the aircraft in to the parking spot yourself, with no assistance from ground personnel, and then use Option A.

The pilot can't do everything, it is a liability to the company if a pilot brings in a plane to a gate area without assistance from ground personnel (The AA MD80 at BHM), you could damage equipment (at this station that is not yours), or interfere with other flights that might use that gate in the near future. They have wing walkers and a marshaller for a reason, they aren't there to look pretty waving orange sticks around.

XJ obviously had the status-quo.



No info
User currently offlineWNBob From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days ago) and read 11205 times:



Quoting SANFan (Reply 9):
She's the captain of the ship, she's responsible for the safety and well-being of her passengers and the hell with policy, procedures, and regulations!

Unfortunately, if u get stranded in the middle of nowhere, it's usually safer to stay with the car. In this case RST was a stranged place to the ExpressJet crew.

This is obviously a case of bureaucracy on top of bureaucracy, and the Mesaba staff was uncooperative, dumb, afraid to wake up management, or all of the above. The Mesaba staff was probly thinking, Who's gonna pay our overtime? Is CO re-reimbursing us? Is our management gonna get mad because we spent time and resources to ANOTHER airline?

I dunno whether the ExpressJet crew was able to wake up some CO management and get some butts in the airport STAT (probly not). Once I heard a manager say, "I am a manager, so I don't have to do this and that!" (including not to be bothered during off hours).


User currently offlineExFATboy From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2974 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days ago) and read 11196 times:

Well, this is an interesting development, and it is nice to hear that the crew was more proactive than initial reports & comments might have suggested.

However, it still leaves many questions and doesn't, as the CO press release suggests, absolve ExpressJet of blame:

* why didn't ExpressJet operations attempt to contact the airport management?

* why didn't ExpressJet operations try to contact TSA, once Mesaba trotted out the "security" argument, and have TSA tell Mesaba they're wrong?

* why didn't ExpressJet make the Mesaba connection clearer up front? Might not have helped the passengers, but would have at least deflected some of the PR sewage-storm.

* at the end of the day, they're your passengers, not Mesaba's - your contingency planning was inadequate. Mesaba might not have helped matters any, and apparently at least their local management isn't from the sharp side of the knife drawer, but that doesn't let ExpressJet off the hook.

And call me cynical, but why do I have the feeling Ol' Baldy* wouldn't be pointing the finger quite so hard if CO wasn't leaving SkyTeam?

(*- sorry, couldn't help it - I actually have great respect for Kellner, and CO is my US network legacy carrier of choice, but I have to admit I'm very tired of his pre-flight video announcement and will be glad when it's replaced, as he has a very annoying voice. James Earl Jones, he ain't.)

Quoting Ssides (Reply 3):
No one from TSA was there.

It's called a phone. TSA has them, ExpressJet operations has them...for that matter, so does Mesaba's local management. If TSA knew what was going on, they could have called Mesaba and told them "your local manager is wrong, the passengers can wait in the secured area without us there, please let them in." And TSA also made it clear in their post-incident press release that TSA staff can be recalled to a closed screening facility if necessary.


User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3888 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11175 times:

There is still way more to the story than we're being presented with. The tapes released show that Mesaba was trying to work with Xjet on the issue. Yet, the DOT report makes it sound as if Mesaba was stone walling and completely uncooperative with the manner. So... which is right? As for just popping the door and unloading people. There are no air stairs on the XJet ERJs, so would you make all the pax jump off the plane?

I think there is PLENTY of blame to go around between all the parties involved. Not just Mesaba.


User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2426 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11172 times:
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I am not sure how much time the crew had left of legality, but couldn't they have taken off and gone somewhere else after certain amt of time sitting getting nowhere?


"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11138 times:



Quoting Tharanga (Reply 1):
I don't understand why the CO crew could only communicate with somebody from Mesaba. Couldn't they communicate directly with the airport staff or TSA? This doesn't make sense to me

I think at that time at a small airport only fire and rescue is there.

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 9):
But if the place is closed and locked you just let them sit out on the ramp? That's not the right thing to do. If your car is broke down and out in the middle of no where and you have only one house and they won't let you in or no one is home, would you go break in? No...

Bad comparison. Fire and rescue monitor the ground and other frequencies they could have gotten someone with the airport out of bed.

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 13):
I think there is PLENTY of blame to go around between all the parties involved. Not just Mesaba

Yep the airport has to shoulder some. I know the management team at IFP and trust me if this happened there one of them would have got his ass out of bed and opened that terminal and took care of those people. Including getting them a shuttle to one of the casinos and something worked out. It's about service and this airport dropped the ball badly.


User currently offlineExFATboy From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2974 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11110 times:



Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 13):
There is still way more to the story than we're being presented with. The tapes released show that Mesaba was trying to work with Xjet on the issue. Yet, the DOT report makes it sound as if Mesaba was stone walling and completely uncooperative with the manner. So... which is right? As for just popping the door and unloading people. There are no air stairs on the XJet ERJs, so would you make all the pax jump off the plane?

I think there is PLENTY of blame to go around between all the parties involved. Not just Mesaba.

Hmmmm, even more interesting, as I (and I suspect most people) have only read the DOT summary.

Still not sure how much "working with" there needed to be...at the end of the day, all ExpressJet needed from Mesaba was stairs. I can understand Mesaba wanting to verify with TSA about letting the passengers stay in the post-security part of the airport, but apparently they didn't do that, nor did ExpressJet operations.

Also occurs to me that, frankly, shouldn't TSA be proactively briefing airline operations managers on what TSA policy actually is in situations like this?


User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3888 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11102 times:

Mtnwest1979 - the crew didn't have much time left in their duty day. And even if they did there were t-storms in the vicinity of the airport, therefore making a safe takeoff highly unlikely.

User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22706 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11070 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 15):
I think at that time at a small airport only fire and rescue is there

That's true even at some big airports, like CLT; TSA leaves there before the last departure and long before the last arrival.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 15):
Yep the airport has to shoulder some.

Even if the airport was unaware of what was going on?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11044 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 18):
Even if the airport was unaware of what was going on?

I doubt fire and rescue were ignorant to what was going on. At small airports in the middle of the night this would have been front and center. Whoever was in the firehouse had to have a way to contact the airport director and or his asst and something could have been done. For those pax to sit on that plane for that long is a total debacle, screw up, failure and totally unacceptable in this day and age in the commercial aviation world.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22706 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 10944 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 19):
I doubt fire and rescue were ignorant to what was going on.

What if they weren't? Someone has to call them for them to be aware... all they would have known from monitoring tower and ground was that the plane landed and taxied to the ramp.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 10785 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 20):
What if they weren't? Someone has to call them for them to be aware... all they would have known from monitoring tower and ground was that the plane landed and taxied to the ramp

Have you ever been at a small airfield late at night or in the middle of the night? I have and trust me if something like this is occuring they would have known about it. Unless they were asleep.


User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 10734 times:

I doubt the DOT would issue a statement if they weren't certain of most of the facts. This comment from Delta certainly does not indicate a major disagreement, although with DOT involved, I'm sure Delta is being agreeable, at least for now.


ATLANTA, Aug. 21 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Delta Air Lines (NYSE: DAL - News) Chief Executive Officer Richard Anderson today issued the following statement in response to a report by the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) regarding preliminary findings of an investigation into a lengthy ground delay involving Continental Flight 2816 on Aug. 8, 2009.

"Because customer service is so important to our industry, I have personally reached out to Continental's chairman and CEO to ensure we fully understand the facts of this unfortunate incident. Delta is working with Mesaba to conduct an internal investigation, continue our full cooperation with the DOT and share all the facts with Continental."


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22706 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 10712 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 21):
I have and trust me if something like this is occuring they would have known about it.

How? They wouldn't have rolled the trucks over to the ramp...



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2489 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 10568 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 19):
I doubt fire and rescue were ignorant to what was going on. At small airports in the middle of the night this would have been front and center. Whoever was in the firehouse had to have a way to contact the airport director and or his asst and something could have been done. For those pax to sit on that plane for that long is a total debacle, screw up, failure and totally unacceptable in this day and age in the commercial aviation world.

I agree with you NIKV69. This isn't the 1950's when Andy or Barney would have to turn the crank on the side of the phone and get Sarah the operator on the line to try and ring up someone in town.
I agree with those who've stated it would be irresponsible and impractical for the pilot to just open the door and let the pax wander on the tarmac. If there isn't an un-locked door at the terminal by which the pax could enter, what good would it have done them to get off the plane only to stand out in the rain in the middle of the night?


25 OPNLguy : If so, how does the jetway get placed up against the aircraft? Are the passengers and crew supposed to jump the gap? (Now there's a lawsuit waiting t
26 AVLAirlineFreq : That's the part I don't get, either. I understand ExpressJet doesn't serve the airport and wouldn't necessarily have a way to contact the manager dir
27 Luv2cattlecall : " target=_blank>http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/a....html Looks like one of the commenters to that article is actually a Mesaba pilot/shill. Someh
28 WorldTraveler : absolutely. diversion planning is part of running an airline. Putting an airplane into a city that isn't prepared to handle it rarely turns out well;
29 Post contains links KarlB737 : A lot of information here including timeline of events, audio recording links etc. Check this out. Courtesy: KTTC-TV - Rochester, MN Pilot Pleaded To
30 PSU.DTW.SCE : Mesaba is certainly not 100% to blame in this situation. In fact, based on the limited transcripts that have been released, it sure looks like XJet di
31 NIKV69 : They can go anywhere they want, whats your point? No, If I was fire and rescue I would have called an airport official for if he was worth half his s
32 Jbernie : And you are assuming that any other airport within reach, other than their intended destination, is an airport served by the airline. So maybe they w
33 Jetmatt777 : It's okay, the pilot is superman and can do anything he wants regardless of procedure: Glad you aren't my pilot. What if by your hero decision to pul
34 Cubsrule : Right, but why would they have? You still haven't answered a key question: how would ARFF have found out that anything was amiss. They hear the airpl
35 AvConsultant : You do not understand how this works. The last thing any passenger or airline wants is a Captain to throw out the Regs along with Policy & Procedures
36 Cubsrule : XJ probably doesn't have a pre-approved plan for dealing with errant XE aircraft...
37 Post contains links BACCALA : STATEMENT BY U.S. TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY press release “We have determined that the Express Jet crew was not at fault. In fact, the flight crew re
38 AvConsultant : I don't know in regards to XE, but in the past they have been in the ground handling business and have worked other carriers before. You do bring up
39 Cubsrule : That's a fair point, but handling XE at MSN (or wherever) doesn't necessarily mean that they have a plan for what to do when XE shows up at RST. For
40 OPNLguy : At the outset, I hate delays as much as anyone, especially when I'm actually on a delayed flight versus just dispatching them at work. That said, and
41 Azjubilee : For the record... in reply 27 the post links a comment allegedly made by a Mesaba pilot to an article in a Dallas paper. Let the record show that CHRI
42 Antoniemey : I would think any airline or ground handling company should have a plan for what to do if another airline's plane shows up needing their help. It may
43 KaiGywer : They probably want to have all the facts on the table before making any statements. John did comment on it in today's newsletter though
44 Post contains links ULMFlyer : Not true. They didn't time out until after 5:21 am. Having bashed the captain in the previous thread, I offer my sincere apologies. Moreover, Express
45 Azjubilee : Kai - true and if that's the case, more power to them for not falling into the trap of flapping their jaw without all the info. Haven't read his Frida
46 AvConsultant : I concur with Antoniemey. Years back I worked the ramp while in college. We were a regional for mainline carrier in the early early days when code sh
47 Post contains images NIKV69 : It's beyond words at this point but thanks for clarifying. What about the airport? All we needed was someone to bring over the airstairs and your wor
48 AvConsultant : XJ had some of the worst customer service from the late 90's until NW purchased them. The huge debacle came in '03 (I think) when a the computer serv
49 Azjubilee : Based on what avconsultant? XJ has always and still does rank high in customer service surveys and has had very good operational performance for a lon
50 Post contains links N62NA : I appreciate you taking the time to write the above and it would be great if you could re-post it as a new topic (I would, but I'm not sure if that w
51 Jc2354 : I can't understand why the passengers were so submissive, and no one seemed to take any pro-active actions. Did no passenger have a cell phone to call
52 PHLJJS : They didn't need anyone from TSA there to let the passengers off that plane. Someone at XJ fed the pilot a line of BS when they told him that. They di
53 Post contains links N62NA : The pilot was a woman. And after listening to the recordings, it seems to me that she did all she could without violating any rules or procedures. ht
54 NIKV69 : You don't have ge screened when you get off a plane at your destination do you? It was complete BS. Once you are screened you can get off a plane and
55 Mir : Doors to the terminal are generally locked, you know. So then you'd have a bunch of people sitting around on the ramp. What could possibly go wrong?
56 Surprise : Flights divert for 3 basic reasons, weather, mechanical or medical emergency. If a flight diverts because of weather then they normally take on fuel w
57 Flighty : It is fascinating that Mesaba is still not willing to admit they f***ed up. They will be strongly reminded by the FAA, Secretary of Transportation and
58 Nwaesc : There's a master agreement that lists all those charges out (MAGSA agreement). Most cities have copies of them. RST may still have some on hand as a
59 Surprise : Exactly!!
60 Cubsrule : I'm not sure that attitude pervades $8/hour ramp staff, unfortunately. If I'm a ramper and happen to have a supervisor who has preached doing things
61 OPNLguy : Hopefully Congress will also realize that enacting a "solution" that will entail new and more widespread problems will realize that's not really a so
62 Ocracoke : I just skimmed over all these posts, so I don't know if anyone else brought this up, but: 1) Doesn't Eagle also fly to RST? If things were going so po
63 KAUSpilot : I suggest you read the report from the DoT before you start making up theories about MQ operations. In short, MQ operations were not available. The D
64 Surprise : Lying is a pretty strong word. Are you sure that's what happened? I've been playing airport for a few years now and I have never ceased to be amazed
65 Flighty : Come on, it wasn't quite that bad. They were wrong but they didn't necessarily know it was absolutely fine to let the pax into the terminal. Smarter
66 Jetmatt777 : I am also insulin dependent. But it's no excuse to pop an emergency exit. If you have food/snacks with you, and you have your supplies, you are in li
67 Cbphoto : I am probably going to get flamed for this, but IMHO it was still the captains fault for not allowing the passengers to disembark. After all she has t
68 Jetmatt777 : The C/A may have final say over the aircraft, but not another airline's gate or employees.
69 Mir : Captain's authority doesn't override the laws of physics. If you need a set of stairs to deplane, and the stairs are somewhere else, all the captain'
70 Antoniemey : Which, I believe, is essentially what I said. Most of the rest of my post was in direct response to Cubsrule's comments.
71 ULMFlyer : OPNLguy, while I share your skepticism regarding a government solution to the problem at hand, particularly in view of the complexity of delays and t
72 Skyrat : If this airport was listed on their release as the alternate, then it's 100% expressjet dispatch's fault. No one can argue with it! Unless XJT called
73 Mir : According to the timeline posted by XJT, the filed alternate was MSN. It was changed to RST mid-flight because it would give the crew more fuel to pl
74 Ocracoke : I suggest that you read all of what I wrote before you start making up theroies about what I type. In short, the DOT report says that MQ operations w
75 A/c dxer : Alot of people need to realize what you think is simple solution is not alway simple. Reading the time line the XJ people did the right thing. They wa
76 Mir : It shouldn't have been XJ's job to get the flight to MSP - let XJT worry about that. XJ's job was to make sure that the passengers were comfortable,
77 A/c dxer : Was talking about Express Jet. Didnt know Mesaba was XJ.
78 Mir : Yeah, it is sort of confusing. Not a problem. -Mir
79 Kaiarahi : It's DoT pointing the finger, not ExpressJet. And the CEO of DL pretty much accepted it.
80 Ocracoke : I don't want to bring politics into this, but since the DOT is a political institution: 1) Look at which party is in power right now. Is it the "take
81 Par13del : Because that unknown person is empowered by the company to tell you what to do, how much fuel to load, what time to leave, how long you can fly, etc.
82 LHR380 : He does work for an airline, but is ground based, and the airline has its hub in ATL, so will leave you to figure out how the journalist thinks (From
83 Western727 : Huh?? Doesn't door L1 on the ERJ have built-in stairs? I know the CR7 and CR9 do...I haven't flown on ExpressJet for some time (because I avoid cramp
84 Western727 : Disclaimer: this is nothing more than pure speculation (go a.net! ).... I wonder if the XJ manager at RST was less eager to lend a hand to the XJT cre
85 XPJets : I suppose I should attempt to add something to this post since I at one point was an XJ employee AT RST. I'll attempt to clear up as many questions as
86 Gxman : The incident at RST has nothing to do with Republicans or Democrats. The majority of the staff are career, not political appointees. They carry out t
87 Mir : You can either have the built-in stairs or a regular door without stairs. ExpressJet chose the regular door, probably because it makes using a jetway
88 Kaiarahi : Quoting Ocracoke, not me.
89 Wjcandee : Bottom line is that nobody escalated this up the chain of command, where somebody senior enough would have ordered somthing sensible to happen. If the
90 Post contains links Ocracoke : I don't know why some are skipping over some of the facts, just to prove some point. Again, from post #29: http://www.kttc.com/Global/story.asp?S=109
91 Pink77W : nightmare is very apropo
92 MtnWest1979 : Well if they were not going to time out till well after 4am, and first calls shown were at before 3, timing out wasnt an issue at that time. Listenin
93 AvConsultant : I respect people's opinions about thier company and companies success. Yes, XJ has one of the longest run's of any airline without a crash (53 yrs II
94 Flighty : Thanks for your post, very interesting. Your info and guesses seem very reasonable. The wrong thing happened, but it sounds understandable that peopl
95 Cubsrule : Not just ground handling, either. I lived in a station a few years ago that was primarily CRJs to MEM and primarily ARJs to DTW, so I saw a lot of 9E
96 PSU.DTW.SCE : That is not necessarily true. Yes, 9E had lower operating costs than XJ. Why? - Pilot wages were less at 9E - XJ had higher seniority people on staff
97 IAD51FL : Just a few things: XJ = Mesaba XE = ExpressJet The EMB-145's that XE have DO NOT have built-in stairs. The charter planes carry portables, but all the
98 Cubsrule : I was talking about onboard service. On average, there is (or was; I don't fly XJ much anymore) a marked difference. That's not to say that there wer
99 Sfomb67 : I will bring politics into this, and this incident has everything to do with Republicans and Democats in Congress. Has something like this ever happe
100 Mir : Be careful what you wish for.... And BTW, that's not my quote. -Mir
101 Jetmatt777 : This would either hurt the pax, the airline, or both. It would definitely put the foot in the door for greater regulation of our lives. If you think
102 Kaiarahi : Why don't you try actually reading the report you posted: "The recordings of conversations between the pilot of Flight 2816 and a representative of M
103 Boeing12345 : Well from what I read here is that Express Jet tried several times to let the pax off and was denied my Mesaba. So at that point they have nothing el
104 Mir : XJ has plenty of responsibility for not letting them off, but it's also pretty clear that getting the passengers off the plane was not XE's number on
105 CWAFlyer : As bad as this incident was, how much worse do you think it would have been had the captain decided to let her passengers go wander around on a dark r
106 DocLightning : No, you don't just learn from it and move on. 50 people were victims of a CRIME (unlawful detainment). The CRIMINAL responsible for this CRIME must b
107 Cubsrule : Can you point to some case or statute that supports this assertion (in this case)?
108 PSU.DTW.SCE : Forget about who's to BLAME for a minute. In the end, does it really matter at this point? What this incident, and past incidents have illustrated is
109 Boeing12345 : Best thing I have read on this thread so far.....great ideas.
110 Iad51fl : Crime? Show me where it is a crime, I wanna see the statutes as well as any laws that were broken. The passengers signed a contract to get from point
111 Cbphoto : That is not the issue, the issue is getting the passengers off of the aircraft and into the terminal! They could have easily deplaned the passengers
112 Mir : Yeah, nothing at all bad about having passengers milling around on the ramp in the rain, is there? Doing that would be unsafe. And if someone manages
113 IAD51FL : Also it was in RST not ROC.... People are acting like the passengers were on a sinking ship and were about to die. Don't people get tired of over dram
114 AVLAirlineFreq : Amen to that. While not every occurrence can be planned for, this will happen again somewhere, sometime. As I posted earlier, had someone at XE simpl
115 IndyWA : Yeah, good luck to the 5'0" tall flight attendant helping Mr. 400lb Obese Seatbelt Extension to jump from the plane...being that she isn't even suppo
116 ExFATboy : "False imprisonment" or "False arrest" are defined crimes in both the statute books and in common law. ("False arrest" is usually defined as someone
117 Cubsrule : Wouldn't there be a preemption issue with any state law claims?
118 DocLightning : So, if I lure you somewhere and then lock you up for 9 hours, I shouldn't suffer any consequences? Sorry, bub. That's not how it works. Not nearly as
119 ExFATboy : Good question, don't know the answer to that one. Giving it a little more thought, I think it'd be more likely that if someone got it in their head t
120 Cubsrule : I think that's right. Unfortunately, since the burden of proof is different for defenses, even that may not settle the issue. I'm still looking for s
121 DocLightning : I don't have access to a law library. But I know that holding someone against their will is a crime. Especially when that person would not have been
122 DocLightning : Yes and no. Sometimes, if the blame clearly falls on one head, it makes perfect sense to use that person as an example of what happens when you don't
123 Cubsrule : Sometimes, not always. That's why I'm curious...
124 Mir : Since the DOT put the responsibility on XJ, they're the ones that will probably get hit with the suit. I would consider untrained people walking arou
125 ExFATboy : In theory, I can agree with that. As a practical matter, you're not going to get much public support as a DA if you arrest and prosecute a low-paid r
126 FlyKev : This thread has drifted slowly off topic now for a little while, and for this reason I am going to lock the thread. Kev.
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