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AS Files Another Motion To Review VX  
User currently offlineAviators99 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 455 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8755 times:

After DOT had re-qualified VX as a citizen again last week, AS comes back with another motion!

http://alaskasworld.com/newsroom/ASn...ASfeatures/VX_combined_filings.pdf

They're going to try to lawyer them to death, I guess.

143 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDesertAir From Mexico, joined Jan 2006, 1461 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8698 times:

This seems like the group that keeps attempting to establish the President Obama was not born in the United States.

User currently offlineAviators99 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8678 times:

By the way, the article that was on cnn.com about last week's decision is now gone. You can read it in Google's cache:

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache...TUNE5.htm&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

I'd appreciate any other links to this story, if anyone can find it.

Thanks.

[Edited 2009-08-21 11:21:19]

[Edited 2009-08-21 11:21:54]

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25166 posts, RR: 48
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8660 times:

1) Sounds like AS has zero faith in the DOTs ability to evaluate a carriers fitness.

2) VX must be having a meaningful pestering effect in AS markets.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8614 times:

At some point, AS really should be fined for abusing DOT and VX.


a.
User currently offlineFlyibaby From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1017 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8571 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
At some point, AS really should be fined for abusing DOT and VX.

I agree. At what point does it become harrasment? I can understand due to the circumstances if a periodic review was accomplished at random by the DOT, but the fact that a Senator from Washington is now involved in this is getting out of hand. A legislator, no matter what state they represent, should not be delving into the regulatory finanical holdings of an airline. This is what the DOT is for.

I am not saying I am pro-VX either, but this does seem unfair to VX.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8573 times:

Is AS having problems competing with VX at the moment?? Is AS losing money??


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2920 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8555 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
Is AS having problems competing with VX at the moment?

Probably. VX competes with them out of Seattle. Not that VX's handful of flights is making a dent in AS' bottom line.

Washington State senators have more important things to worry and lobby about than this ridiculous argument...over and over again.

Alaska should just spend this money on their operations. Maybe invest in a better in flight experience for their customers?


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8539 times:



Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 7):
Alaska should just spend this money on their operations. Maybe invest in a better in flight experience for their customers?

I was about ready to suggest that, you beat me to it!



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineCrosswinds21 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 698 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8518 times:

This petition actually does make some interesting and seemingly valid points if you read it. I'm not a lawyer or anything like that, but again, it seems that they do have some vaild points, where the circumstances changed from the time of the previous ruling.

User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17444 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8496 times:



Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 7):
Alaska should just spend this money on their operations.

Or they could just find some sucker to pour money into sustaining the operation like VX is doing Wink



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13555 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8448 times:
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So here's my question - why is this a problem for VX? If they're truly compliant with all aspects of the ownership laws, there shouldn't be an issue for them to have a complete, open hearing on the topic.


"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineFlyibaby From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1017 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8391 times:



Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 11):
So here's my question - why is this a problem for VX? If they're truly compliant with all aspects of the ownership laws, there shouldn't be an issue for them to have a complete, open hearing on the topic.

I don't think it is really a problem other than the fact that they probably wind up paying alot of extra legal fees, not to mention better used time, to keep dealing with this same issue.

The fact that this makes the third time in what two years that they are having to go through this, is seemingly bulling. Lets say another review occurs, with an open hearing, when does it end? If AS still isn't satisfied, is there a fourth, a fifth, etc?


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13555 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8323 times:
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Quoting Flyibaby (Reply 12):
If AS still isn't satisfied, is there a fourth, a fifth, etc?

I don't think AS would have pursued this if not for the fact that Sen. Patty Murray has asked for hearings as of July 9, 2009 and so has Rep. James Oberstar. Had these members of Congress not had these same questions, it's unlikely AS would be continuing this.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8280 times:

In addition to a DOT fine for abusing the system, I would like to see AS also have to pay all of VX legal fees for all these frivolous filings.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 11):
So here's my question - why is this a problem for VX? If they're truly compliant with all aspects of the ownership laws, there shouldn't be an issue for them to have a complete, open hearing on the topic.

Let's say somebody accused you of stealing, even though you didn't. You'd still have to go to court and defend yourself. You'll win, because you didn't do it. Though all that time and money wasted? No problem, right?



a.
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13555 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8200 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 11):
So here's my question - why is this a problem for VX? If they're truly compliant with all aspects of the ownership laws, there shouldn't be an issue for them to have a complete, open hearing on the topic.

Let's say somebody accused you of stealing, even though you didn't. You'd still have to go to court and defend yourself. You'll win, because you didn't do it. Though all that time and money wasted? No problem, right?

Now assume I was the only one around whatever was stolen, and prior to the theft, others had witnessed me jokingly grabbing the item and acting as if I were stealing it.

I'd understand why others had questions, but more important to me would be going out of my way trying to clear my good name. I would insist those accusing me pay my legal fees once I were exonerated, however. And I'd doubt AS would turn them down if VX agreed to full, open DOT hearings with the understanding that their legal costs would be borne by AS if they were cleared.

Problem is, VX ISN'T trying to clear their name here. And that tells me they may not be that confident in the outcome of an open hearing.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25166 posts, RR: 48
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8169 times:



Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 15):
Problem is, VX ISN'T trying to clear their name here. And that tells me they may not be that confident in the outcome of an open hearing.

There is no such thing as open hearings. The DOT does not work that way, and its ridiculous to require the process to be different for a single carrier.

The DOT instead receives pleadings from carriers, accepts public comments and goes off and does its work quietly behind the scenes and issues a ruling.

There is simply no such thing as a public court process, this is not a criminal issue, just an administrative process.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8138 times:



Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 15):
Now assume I was the only one around whatever was stolen, and prior to the theft, others had witnessed me jokingly grabbing the item and acting as if I were stealing it.

That's understandable. So you go to court once and defend yourself. Alaska Airlines is bullying Virgin America, once again, even after decisions have gone in VX's favour.

I for one won't be giving my business to AS in the near future.



a.
User currently offlineHatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8101 times:



Quoting Flyibaby (Reply 12):
The fact that this makes the third time in what two years that they are having to go through this, is seemingly bulling. Lets say another review occurs, with an open hearing, when does it end? If AS still isn't satisfied, is there a fourth, a fifth, etc?

None of AS's requests have been motioned. So no money has been spent on AS or VX's end for AS's petitions.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
Is AS having problems competing with VX at the moment?? Is AS losing money??

No and no. But anyone who is a competitor no matter what their threat to you deserves to play by the rules. AS just wants to know after all those transactions took place that it is still legit.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
At some point, AS really should be fined for abusing DOT and VX.

How is it abuse to the DOT? These are just requests. Nothing AS is doing is more than a letter to the DOT requesting the case be reopened.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Sounds like AS has zero faith in the DOTs ability to evaluate a carriers fitness.

How many government entities do everything perfectly? The numbers and major investors have changed since the last time the DOT looked into VX's structure. I don't think AS is thinking the DOT doesn't know what it's doing. But has the DOT for sure kept tabs on what exactly is going on at VX? No government organization spends all their time watching particular companies like a babysitter. There are lots of things even the FAA doesn't pay attention to at airlines until what they do causes a problem or is found in violation. When one thing sets them off to investigate, they inevitably find more than one thing that isn't being followed correctly in their eyes. This happens all the time and I've seen it over and over working in this industry.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 7):
Alaska should just spend this money on their operations. Maybe invest in a better in flight experience for their customers?

Again, an open request in a letter to the DOT costs absolutely nothing. And as for our operations...we are in the high 80s for on time performance and July I think we will finish #1 in on time percentage for all carriers only behind HA. I think ranking #1 in JD Power and Associates for Customer Satisfaction also shows we don't need mood lighting to win customers over.


User currently offlineAviators99 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8094 times:



Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 15):
Problem is, VX ISN'T trying to clear their name here. And that tells me they may not be that confident in the outcome of an open hearing.

What??? They spent quite a bit of time giving information to the DOT over the past 6 months, defending their structure! Not only were they trying to clear their name, they *DID* clear their name.


User currently offlineFlyibaby From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1017 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8073 times:



Quoting Hatbutton (Reply 18):
I think ranking #1 in JD Power and Associates for Customer Satisfaction also shows we don't need mood lighting to win customers over.

Having as close to a monopoly as possible on a state with a similar name to the airline doesn't hurt either.


User currently offlineHatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8059 times:



Quoting Flyibaby (Reply 20):
Having as close to a monopoly as possible on a state with a similar name to the airline doesn't hurt either.

You're right. Clearly the only reason we won out at #1 is because we own a monopoly in one state. A state with only 700,000 people. Whereas CO is based at an airport in a city with 2.2 million. I forgot that J.D. Power was based in Anchorage....


User currently offlineAviators99 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8057 times:



Quoting Hatbutton (Reply 18):
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
Is AS having problems competing with VX at the moment?? Is AS losing money??

No and no.

Are you seriously saying that fare wars SEA/LAX and SEA/SFO don't cause problems for AS? RASM is way down on these routes, due to VX.

Quoting Hatbutton:

But anyone who is a competitor no matter what their threat to you deserves to play by the rules. AS just wants to know after all those transactions took place that it is still legit.

I agree that AS really wants to know what is going on here. After all, if VX is allowed to do something they haven't figured out how to do on their own, it would be beneficial for AS to utilize the same methodology to raise money, if necessary.

Quoting hatbutton:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
At some point, AS really should be fined for abusing DOT and VX.

How is it abuse to the DOT? These are just requests. Nothing AS is doing is more than a letter to the DOT requesting the case be reopened.

I don't know if I'd call it abuse, but it's pretty ballsy. In DOT's last (and only) response to AS, they basically said, "Stop bugging us".


User currently offlineAviators99 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8034 times:



Quoting Hatbutton (Reply 21):
Quoting Flyibaby (Reply 20):
Having as close to a monopoly as possible on a state with a similar name to the airline doesn't hurt either.

You're right. Clearly the only reason we won out at #1 is because we own a monopoly in one state. A state with only 700,000 people. Whereas CO is based at an airport in a city with 2.2 million. I forgot that J.D. Power was based in Anchorage....

I agree that was ridiculous. AS has very good service.


User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1556 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8032 times:

I haven't following this apparent AS vs. VX feud (or what sounds like attacks on VX by AS). What has made them so hostile to VX?

25 Hatbutton : If that's what you define as competing. We aren't losing passengers to VX as indicated by load factors. I never said it wasn't hurting RASM. It's not
26 Hatbutton : VX and AS for many reasons have never been cordial from the start. It's most likely because they both offer arguably better service than most of the
27 Aviators99 : I can't argue with that. But note that the politicians who sent the earlier letters to DOT did so before DOT accepted VX's status last week. It could
28 BigGSFO : Wrong. The legal brief didn't write itself and I doubt a legal team did it pro bono. Alaska is devoting resources and manpower to this and that equat
29 Hatbutton : VX hasn't had to refute anything from AS's petitions because nothing has been reopened as far as I know. They have only responded through the press.
30 Aviators99 : Please check your facts. The motion is signed by: Marshall S. Sinick, Esq. Edward W. Sauer, Esq. Squire Sanders and Dempsey, LLP 1201 Pennsylvania Av
31 Hatbutton : I understand that. I would just assume they are frequently used by AS as counsel in addition to those that AS has on payroll. I would imagine these t
32 EA CO AS : All due respect, the only thing VX settled was that the two entites in question still held voting rights, even though their equity position was remov
33 GentFromAlaska : If this reaches his level, I have a hunch the number two man at the federal DOT may have to bite the bullet and remove himself as a potential conflict
34 BigGSFO : Maybe. But I would imagine from a very simplistic level, United poses to be the biggest loser in the market where all three (AS, VX and UA) compete.
35 Aviators99 : Your original post stated that they aren't trying to clear their name. My response stated that they gave DOT all of the information to prove that the
36 MAH4546 : Actually, it cost about $550 to $900 an hour to have that letter written by a law firm, depending on the firm and who in the firm is writing it, and
37 Post contains links EA CO AS : Did they, though? I'm not being a smart-aleck - I'm just seriously unable to find anything from the DOT stating "Virgin America, you're a-ok in our b
38 Pyrex : What does one thing have to do with the other? You can be branded #1 and still have substantially less passengers than other carriers, I am sure a re
39 EK345 : I'm very dissapointed to see Alaska's continual bullying of VX. Reallocate your budget dollars to improve the aspects of your service where VX is beat
40 SFOnative : This whole thing is clearly an indication that VX poses a threat to its competition! If they were not, nobody would spend the overhead to care. Sad to
41 UAL757 : I'm getting really annoyed with AS over this issue. Didn't they just bother VX over this??
42 RIDGID727 : Would be really interesting to see VX pull an action like Morris did, and start a SEA-ANC flight with real low fares.
43 BMI727 : Yeah, I'm starting to feel sorry for VX and as much as I like Alaska I think that they are being a crybaby with this. The thing is that AS is one of
44 Aviators99 : AS is not VX's target. It is collateral damage. VX goes after UA and allegedly AA. UA doesn't fight back, but AA does (see the increased capacity CA-
45 Atomsareenough : Indeed. ...And where is Morris now? Look, SEA-ANC would not be in line with the VX model. There's no good reason to start that route.
46 Avek00 : I don't blame AS in the least for doing this. For starters, as mentioned by others, there are questions being raised and investigations conducted by g
47 Eaa3 : Are you saying that AS has a 'real concern' about VX´s citizenship. The fact is that AS is simply doing this because they don´t like the competitio
48 EA CO AS : So let me make sure I understand this correctly - you're all IN FAVOR of allowing one carrier to possibly operate outside the law? Because that's all
49 Ridgid727 : Of course AS doesn't care what the citzinship of VX is. if they actually had that care, would they have been concerned about the AS ramp folks, and n
50 Eaa3 : That´s not the point. AS doesn´t care who owns it. They just don´t want them to exist. Whether they are owners or not is really besides the point.
51 Aviators99 : Whether you like the law or not, it's the law. If VX is allowed to do it, so should AS. That is a good enough reason for them to question it, without
52 XT6Wagon : No actualy it isn't. Most nations have far more laws about ownership than the US, and most of them are to prevent market distortion from outside of t
53 EA CO AS : Gee, grasp at straws much? The issue at hand is about establishing whether or not VX is compliant with U.S. law, not resurrecting a 5 year old argume
54 Ikramerica : Only if it's an isolated incident. Or are you trying to say that if you go to court once for alleged car theft and are not charged, you can then stea
55 AusA380 : I am always intrigued by the sovereignty argument. The US proclaims to be the home of free enterprise, but in aviation it is appears to be the home of
56 HikesWithEyes : I think Ikramerica's reply #54 is probably the best post on this thread. Many good points made. One thing to watch for is that if VX isn't closely mon
57 HikesWithEyes : I think that there are enough national security concerns to keep cabotage out of the US and also to ensure that US airlines are majority owned by US
58 Pyrex : Yes, the same national security argument that allows foreign companies to own power companies, oil refineries, other utilities, banks, car manufactur
59 UAL757 : NO! I mean, wasn't VX just reviewed or something? Did something drastic in their ownership change in between the last time the DOT gave VX a thumbs u
60 EA CO AS : YES! Cyrus and Black Canyon - two of their largest stakeholders - exercised a clause that permitted them to not only sell their stake in VX, but actu
61 UAL757 : Ah okay, well now I don't care that AS wants to know about VX's ownership. They have a legit reason.
62 SFOnative : This has already been legally decided, VX is legit. No need to question any further. You and AS don't need to like it, but the two of you really need
63 BigGSFO : I find it hard to believe that the DOT, after reviewing VX's application with the provisions allowed to the investors, didn't demand VX to provide a s
64 EA CO AS : Has it? Please cite your source. Hadn't over a week passed? Not sure how that qualifies as "immediately." Riding VX's coattails, right? Sure. Because
65 HikesWithEyes : Weird statement....a foreign owned car company shutdown would endanger national security?
66 N801NW : However, it is illegal for non-citizens of Australia to own more than 49% of the shares of Qantas.
67 Pyrex : If it is long enough. And how would thw shutdown of a foreign-owned airline (that wet dream scenario of all economic protectionists out there) endang
68 DeltaL1011man : Ok, Because your not happy about what AS did to its pamp folks(and don't get me wrong i hate what they have done) doesn't have anything to do with th
69 Atomsareenough : Yup, pretty much. What special allowances were those, out of curiosity? They got special roadblocks to try to prevent them from operating, I do remem
70 L-188 : Between that and SW buying Frontier which has an Anchorage route. Alaska has been raping Alaskan's since Markair went under in 96. There hasn't been
71 Mariner : I don't remember any roadblocks that were particularly special. I do remember that the DOT demanded certain changes to the ownership, to comply with
72 Atomsareenough : Well, a bunch of competitors filed petitions hoping to block them, and they ended up having to give up their CEO Fred Reid as a sacrificial lamb. Als
73 BMI727 : I haven't read about that, but my first thought is that VX is right that there is a differnce. My guess (for what that's worth) is that the actual ca
74 Mariner : Yes, because the original corporate structure did not - in the DOT's opinion - conform to the law. Virgin America changed the structure. As to Mr. Re
75 Sbworcs : And these were what? What laws are they breaking? Again what laws are they breaking?
76 BMI727 : I agree. If AS eventually manages to get VX put in timeout or whatever, it will probably be due to the "actual control" clause and not the 25% rule.
77 XT6Wagon : they were allowed to place a healthy portion of the money put into the airline as "debt" greatly reducing the need for finding US investors. Should M
78 Sbworcs : Well it was scrutinised and approved so therefore I suppose he should be able to. So is it a case of if we can;t get them on the ownership we will co
79 Pyrex : And you think other airlines don't tap the foreign debt markets? Heck, China is bankrolling half of the U.S. as it is. The law is able to understand
80 AirNz : Oh! catch a grip, are you still living in the past, or conveniently 'forgetting' that LHR is open to anyone who wants to use it? How long is this cry
81 FlyPNS1 : CO and AS couldn't care less about VX's makeup. They simply don't want to compete against a carrier that can offer a better product than AS/CO and do
82 XT6Wagon : So you would have no problem letting companies bring in thier money from offshore and wreck your native industries in direct violation of the laws in
83 Eaa3 : Yes I´m sure they have a real concern about VX breaking the law. A concerned citizen of sorts. NOT. You are trying to make the case that AS thinks t
84 Pyrex : If the laws of my country are designed to favor an entrenched, inneficient oligopoly in detriment of the consumer then no, I wouldn't oppose companie
85 HikesWithEyes : Groan. Ever hear of CRAF?
86 Hatbutton : They've yet to show they can make money at that low price point. They just raised bag fees probably to try and help. That was exactly my point. Havin
87 EA CO AS : Would AS (and every other competitor) be pleased if VX were forced to shut down? Certainly. However, regardless of their intent, AS has a very legiti
88 Atomsareenough : That's what caused the competitors to file petitions? Or was it the fact that they wanted to stop a well-funded new entrant from competing with them?
89 Post contains links Hatbutton : According to this statement: http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/archives/177092.asp ...it looks like the DOT still has done nothing other than revie
90 Mariner : I don't know. All I know is that I was deeply confused by the various statements made by Virgin America. Did the DOT ask it? My memory is that Virgin
91 Aviators99 : Ad Misericordiam You aren't really answering the question UAL757 meant. The reason for the most recent review *was* because of the rumors of which yo
92 Post contains links Mariner : Yep, you're right - I was wrong: http://www.jaunted.com/story/2007/10...ica's+Fred+Reid+Counting+the+Days Jaunted: "The May 18, 2007 DOT final order
93 Post contains links EA CO AS : Looks to be a lot stronger than just rumors... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123663746387076621.html http://www.planebuzz.com/2009/03/virgin_unamer
94 Aviators99 : " target=_blank>http://www.planebuzz.com/2009/03/vir....html Neither of these articles quote any actual sources, and are at least second-hand. I quot
95 EA CO AS : I'll post it again - from the same August 12, 2009 article where David Cush said the DOT supposedly assured Virgin America that the airline’s owner
96 MaverickM11 : Ha, a return in the airline industry, especially from one of the worst managed startups out there...
97 Aviators99 : I'm sure he's not confused about a conversation he had with the DOT. Sometimes the PR department is not up to date with what goes on in the enforceme
98 EA CO AS : And you're positive this conversation took place because.....? Face facts - AS has a legitimate question, and you just happen not to like it because
99 DeltaL1011man : What I mean is most of the airlines in the US wouldn't be US owned if the DOT opened the market up. They would love to have an airline like LH or AF
100 Aviators99 : Because he said so. That's actually what I said in the line before the one you quoted. I said a few posts earlier than the one you quoted that AS had
101 EA CO AS : Well, hallelujah! Let's all tell AS to stop filing motions - David Cush says the DOT told him his carrier is compliant and by God, that oughta be goo
102 Eaa3 : Why do you want Virgin America to fail. Alaska Airlines is a crappy airline. At least Virgin is trying to make flying better and people love them for
103 Post contains images EA CO AS : I don't, because that would result in the loss of jobs - including the one of a good friend of mine who works for them. I do, however, think they sho
104 Atomsareenough : But there has been absolutely ZERO proof so far that they are not compliant. AS has filed two petitions with the DOT now, so why don't we wait and se
105 MoltenRock : I'd love to see AS barred from filing any more frivolous claims against anyone, for anything, for the next 2 to 3 years as punishment for this ridicul
106 Aviators99 : Certainly, we're going around in circles. I agree with you that: 1. AS should be allowed to ask the question, if not for any reason other than the fa
107 EA CO AS : The DOT denies any such conversation took place. Why is that, I wonder?
108 Aviators99 : They certainly did *not* deny that the conversation took place. Nothing in the quote you posted was such a denial. You seriously can't fathom a situa
109 EA CO AS : The comment below says otherwise - how could David Cush have been told the DOT has said they're fine when later - when specifically asked about VX's
110 Eaa3 : J.D. Power and associates are full of sh*t. Various American cars have won this prize but I still wouldn´t buy them.
111 Alaska737 : I can say the same thing about your opinions. While you may not agree with JD Power it's clear that enough people do, or else AS wouldnt have won the
112 Avek00 : I have no qualms with AS being the Birthers of the US airline industry.
113 Post contains links Luv2cattlecall : Can you stop using J.D. power for everything? How about VX winning "Airline of the year" from an industry expert such as Travel and Leisure? http://w
114 Hatbutton : Why? JD Power polls people who fly. I'm glad Travel and Leisure think VX is a great airline. But what Travel and Leisure experts think doesn't pay th
115 Atomsareenough : I'm sure it does sound like that to you. Obviously none of us knows what conversation took place between Cush and the DOT, but I don't see why it's i
116 Post contains images Vincewy : Just a bit of fun out of this drama, a message from SRB to AS earlier this year, yes it was really him in Boston when they launched BOS flight.
117 EA CO AS : Are you kidding me? How did Morris Air have a better product than AS? You forget, this was early 90s when AS still served steak dinners to coach cust
118 Aviators99 : Great imagery, and it explains everything.
119 Atomsareenough : Well, look. First off, that's a pretty ridiculous visual - nobody's coming after AS with pitchforks and torches; with the repeated petitions that oth
120 BigGSFO : David Cush stated on a town hall yesterday that he is in constant contact with the DOT and even though there is still continued dialogue the DOT seem
121 AirframeAS : The problem with that award, Luv2Cattlecall.... is that VX won that before they ever reached their 1 year anniversary, IIRC. I don't think that award
122 Kohflot : Seems a bit odd that there would be "continued dialogue" if the DOT is satisfied.
123 EA CO AS : One way or the other, I certainly hope it gets resolved too - quickly and definitively. And that's precisely my point to those who swear VX is in the
124 Post contains links and images Atomsareenough : Well, they've actually won the award for 2 years in a row, 2008 and 2009. Are you now going to invent a reason to say the second award doesn't count
125 EA CO AS : Not at all. All that has to take place is for Cyrus or Black Canyon to show they've not received any payout of their investment funds from VX and all
126 BigGSFO : Well since we clearly don't know exactly what is being reviewed, what discussions are being held between the two, we can only presume that they are s
127 EA CO AS : There's another possibility entirely, and that is that perhaps they'll find VX to not be in compliance, but work on a legal remedy to allow them a wi
128 Aviators99 : You have a habit of misquoting people in this forum. Who are these people who "swear VX is in the clear"?
129 Aviators99 : And nobody said DOT is "still investigating". That's the way you choose to interpret DOT's quote. Cush said that DOT is fine with the ownership struc
130 EA CO AS : Pardon me - you didn't "swear," however you have repeatedly stood by your comment about David Cush supposedly being told they're okay by DOT as if it
131 EA CO AS : When a government entity is reviewing information about you, determining whether or not you're compliant with the law, IT'S AN INVESTIGATION. Period.
132 Aviators99 : Nobody said they are still determining whether or not they're compliant with the law. Again, this is *your* interpretation of "still reviewing inform
133 EA CO AS : I mean no disrespect when I say this, but I think you're deluding yourself here. Again, when specifically asked about Cush's remarks concerning compl
134 AirframeAS : Are you putting words in my mouth? Because I never said that, nor was I going down that lane. I was referring to the original award they got. I had n
135 Atomsareenough : Dude, how is that putting words in your mouth? I asked a question. Granted, it was a sarcastic question, but that's because I think your reason for s
136 AirframeAS : I dont know what your point is, but getting an award in their very first year of service and not even passing their first anniversary does not really
137 Atomsareenough : Well then, please explain what happens to an airline in that magical dividing line between 11 months and 12 months that makes such a huge difference.
138 Post contains links Aviators99 : VX responded today, but I haven't been able to find the actual filing. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...Ck9zWjCyGZvCpSgHayDvAl6VgD9AFUO880
139 LAXintl : Its available for viewing online. Here are a couple summary lines. [Edited 2009-09-03 11:32:55]
140 Aviators99 : Would you mind posting a link?
141 Post contains links Atomsareenough : Here you go: http://www.regulations.gov/search/Re...#documentDetail?R=0900006480a1a938 You can just click on the .pdf icon to open a copy of the docu
142 Kohflot : If Alaska's latest motion is "merely a reiteration of its earlier arguments" and that's so obvious to everyone (not least the DOT), why did VX need to
143 Atomsareenough : They're probably on retainer.
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