MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 18389 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 19687 times:
It's a good move, particularly since these BE equipped planes certainly don't need to be flying to Europe in the Fall. That said, they mention three entirely different Business Elite configurations in one press release ...
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21890 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 19490 times:
Expect CO to do the same thing at some point with LAX. Right now 2 or 3 of 6 or 7 are BF aircraft on EWR-LAX. But with new 739 and 753 aircraft arriving, 739s going into hnl and restructuring of international routes under star, they should be able to work out at least 5 frequencies a day.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5063 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 19254 times:
Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 7): They have it now on LAX-ATL on the one daily 777, and I'm excited that I get to fly the 777LR in BizElite in January.
I am not sure whether the new "U.S. BusinessElite" on JFK-LAX/SFO will feature improved catering, amenties, etc., but if it does, it will be different from simply having an international aircraft operating a domestic route (like the 77L on LAX-ATL). The 77L on LAX-ATL even though offers the full-flat BE product, is essentially a domestic flight and features domestic everything - cheaper meals, cheaper pillows, cheaper blankets; basically there is nothing "elite" about the LAX-ATL 77L flight other than the seat
Years ago (in the 1990s), DL used to have a branded "U.S. Business Elite" product on its JFK-LAX/SFO flights which featured printed menus, meals from well-known NYC restaurants like Gotham Bar & Grill, etc. But it was not financially viable, primarily because there were simply too many BE seats for sale (back then, the 763ERs used on the route had 48 BE seats), and DL was not running its NYC operation very well (in terms of marketing, corporate contracts, network, etc.) back then....
Atlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 19172 times:
I bet they will tweak it to give more of the International product domestically. I mean heck offer something like that on a Transcon and not only make the connecting BE international pax happy by creating a near seamless offering but you bring something that VA,B6,AA and UA wouldnt offer.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 8): The Delta seats are equal to the F and C seats on AA and UA.
Since when is Delta's aging BizElite product comparable to AA and UA's three-class product? Both AA and UA have a lie-flat product in F and similar wide, comfortable cradle seats in C. UA tops them all in the back with an Economy Plus product throughout coach.
Even further than that, what really sets UA and AA apart on this route is the heightened level of on-board service (AA's AFS service, which is also used on MIA, IAD, EWR and BOS transcons; and UA's p.s. service). It goes far beyond the nicer seats. The meal service on these routes is top-notch. An excellent wine-list, "dine at your request" service, great entrees, hot-fudge sundaes and baked on-board cookies before landing.
It does make Delta more competitive, definitely. It still is a subpar product, and likely won't help Delta make their way out from the junk-fare position they have in the market, where their average one-way fare is about $180 less than the average AA fare and, IIRC, $250+ below UA's average fare.
If DL wants to be a player in the JFK-LAX/SFO market, they need to introduce a 3-class product and a heightened level of on-board amenities. And find a way to steal entertainment industry travel contracts, arguably the most lucrative in the industry.
I flew it last month. Not that impressed. Food service all comes on one tray, seats surprisingly uncomfortable for a tall person.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12): Maybe C to C is equivalent, but DL's 757 BE does not touch F imo.
Yeah, but there is a limited paid F market between JFK and LAX/SFO. The J market is where it's at. UA and AA keep the F in these planes due to contracts with studios and tech companies, but there are only so many of those tickets to be sold.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Incitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4182 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 18713 times:
Always amazing the spin some of DL's actions get here. This Winter DL is almost entirely removing the 757 from JFK-Europe service. Only Lyon and Manchester get to keep it with some destinations like Frankfurt upgraded to 767 but most 757 destinations becoming seasonal. What to do then with a bunch of 757s fitted with an outdated long-haul business class cabin? Throw them onto transcons and fancify the move.
The reality is that these are hard times and transatlantic markets are suffering even more than domestic ones. There is no way to make money serving secondary cities in Europe with 2 or 3 times a week service.
JDAirCEO From Uruguay, joined Jan 2006, 293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 18688 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15): Yeah, but there is a limited paid F market between JFK and LAX/SFO. The J market is where it's at. UA and AA keep the F in these planes due to contracts with studios and tech companies, but there are only so many of those tickets to be sold.
Actually there is demand for true F in the market. Probably not enough for a third player but the demand does exist.
The F cabin is full on almost every flight and the only way to upgrade is to pay a full J fare, no status upgrades from J and you may not jump cabins from Y. This also entices passengers to purchase J and use miles to upgrade to F. Either way, those in the F cabin have paid good money to be there or their company did.
Which won't happen. Not good or bad but won't happen. I don't see DL introducing 3 classes or service just for transcon flights. I don't see them stealing any of AA or UAs passengers. Nor are they going to be able to command the fare premium that UA does but it's still better than what they had. What needs to happen is them offer BizElite SERVICE. Not just the added seat with domestic first products such as food, beverages, etc. This, I think, will be a welcome change for their customer base. Not to mention any additional passengers they may pick up.
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17): What to do then with a bunch of 757s fitted with an outdated long-haul business class cabin?
Out-dated? Weren't the cabins updated within the year? Yes, it is a recliner seat but much better than what they were offering (standard domestic F seats).
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 19): Out-dated? Weren't the cabins updated within the year? Yes, it is a recliner seat but much better than what they were offering (standard domestic F seats).
They are nonetheless outdated. While AA and CO are have installed/are installing lie-flat C products on their long-haul 757s, DL has installed an out-dated recliner seat. The fact that the seats are "new" doesn't change the fact they are outdated. That being said, a lie-flat seat isn't as important on a domestic flight than a trans-Atlantic. But, then again, JFK-SFO is blocked only 10 minutes less than JFK-DUB.
FlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7164 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 18537 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 20): The fact that the seats are "new" doesn't change the fact they are outdated. That being said, a lie-flat seat isn't as important on a domestic flight than a trans-Atlantic.
You got me there. Very good point. I'm not sure of how they foresee their mix of J/Y capacity on their TATL 757s but I always thought it would have been a better idea to install the smaller BizElite seats found on the 764 in their 757s. Even if for product streamlining sake.
Brings me to another question. Have they finally settled on that seat? It was my understanding that they were taking feedback on the LHR runs and many were not very good. Biggest one being that the seat itself was a bit too narrow.
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 18525 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14): If DL wants to be a player in the JFK-LAX/SFO market, they need to introduce a 3-class product and a heightened level of on-board amenities.
No, they don't. Fares on transcon markets are still highly under pressure. You need to offer a premium product but you need to do it without running costs through the roof. I can assure you that DL's CASM will be far below UA and AA on these routes in addition to what it is on their overall systems... and that translates directly into an ability to match fares and undercut corporate contracts.
DL clearly was behind the 8 ball with premium transcon service but there is a balance between costs and looking for additional revenue. Devoting half of the cabin to premium passengers in markets where there is still significant downward pressure on fares is not the way to make the transcon markets work.
Panamair is exactly right.... DL's previous US BE product didn't work because it had too much real estate devoted to the premium cabin. 16 BE seats on a 757 provides a quality product without breaking the bank. Taking out the equivalent of 8 FC seats in order to replace the front cabin with BE is a viable way to upgrade the product.
Those of you that think AA and UA's average fares justify the expenditure might want to calculate the revenue derived from each flight along with the costs reported by AA and UA for those aircraft types.... AA and UA are clearly not making money on the transcon routes, no matter how fancy the product is.
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15): Yeah, but there is a limited paid F market between JFK and LAX/SFO. The J market is where it's at.
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17): There is no way to make money serving secondary cities in Europe with 2 or 3 times a week service.
But those cities are not served 2-3 times per week during the peak summer periods; this is clearly not a normal demand period so DL is operating reduced frequencies. This strategy is precisely the strategy that DL has done for almost 20 years since acquiring Pan Am and not surprisingly, DL's average fares on these types of routes are some of the highest on their system - which is exactly why other carriers have added service to some of these same cities like BCN, ATH, VCE.... all DL strength cities and ones that DL exclusively served from the US for years.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33794 posts, RR: 70
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 18510 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 23): Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
Yeah, but there is a limited paid F market between JFK and LAX/SFO. The J market is where it's at.
That could not be further from the truth.
Then again, DL doesn't offer a 3-class product on the route, so I guess it is true?
Leave it to WT to spin Delta offering an out-dated 1990s business product on a trans-con route with zero elevated soft product into the most amazing thing since sliced bread.
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 23): DL's average fares on these types of routes are some of the highest on their system - which is exactly why other carriers have added service to some of these same cities like BCN, ATH, VCE..
Oh! So now average fares matter. Because I recall you pointing out recently - in showing how AA has higher average fares than Delta in markets like JFK-MXP and JFK-BCN - that average fares don't matter and we have to look at revenue.
Make up your mind.
[Edited 2009-08-25 12:55:45]
: According to the press release, wifi will be onboard. I do remember reading on widget heads a while back that a hand full of the 75Es will get wifi e
: So, will DL reconfigure existing domestic 752s with the BusinessElite seats?
: UA offers a unique product on these two routes. Maybe that isn't the right path for DL, but by all accounts, it is performing as UA had hoped.
: I'd tend to disagree especially in United's case. For whats its worth the WSJ last summer had a story on the UA p.s. product and it was termed a "Hom
: Not too my knowledge. There is excess capacity and they are reallocating the 75s that are already configured for such. Who knows, if they are serious
: Really? Nothing is further from the truth? Please. There is a limited paying F (3 class) market transcon. That is fact. There is strong J/2 class F d
: Since DL hasn't even announced the hard product, how do you know? DL's transatlantic BE product is rated very highly compared with other US carriers.
: What has UA dropped at LAX in the last year or two?
: I would surmise the same and I don't think anyone would disagree.