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DL Adds BusinessElite To LAX/SFO, Lie Flat To LHR  
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 18980 times:

Delta Air Lines Expands BusinessElite Service from New York
New flat bed seats now available on all flights to London-Heathrow, U.S. BusinessElite added to Los Angeles, San Francisco

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Delta-...ds-prnews-4154901234.html?x=0&.v=1

This puts DL on par with AA and UA in premium cabin offerings on the transcon markets.

Most of DL's growth in the transcon markets in coach has come from UA which has downsized with its PS service.

232 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9289 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 18950 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):
This puts DL on par with AA and UA in premium cabin offerings on the transcon markets.

How so? AA/UA has 3 class with true F C and Y and DL has 2 class with C and Y. How is that on par?



yep.
User currently offlineSelcalcheckok From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 18919 times:

I was just looking at the skeds from JFK to LAX and SFO, and there is a mix of 75 and 738 service.

Maybe I read this article too quick, but it didnt mention that they all will be 757 service now starting in Sept...


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17352 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 18844 times:

It's a good move, particularly since these BE equipped planes certainly don't need to be flying to Europe in the Fall. That said, they mention three entirely different Business Elite configurations in one press release Wink...


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4875 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 18721 times:
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Quoting Selcalcheckok (Reply 2):
I was just looking at the skeds from JFK to LAX and SFO, and there is a mix of 75 and 738 service.

Maybe I read this article too quick, but it didnt mention that they all will be 757 service now starting in Sept...

JFK-LAX starts in September with 6 out of 7 flights going with the BusinessElite aircraft; by end of September; all flights should be switched over.

JFK-SFO is still a mix in September and October, but should fully switch over by November 1.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 18650 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):
This puts DL on par with AA and UA in premium cabin offerings on the transcon markets.

And VX that uses the same seats in their First Class section.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 18647 times:

Expect CO to do the same thing at some point with LAX. Right now 2 or 3 of 6 or 7 are BF aircraft on EWR-LAX. But with new 739 and 753 aircraft arriving, 739s going into hnl and restructuring of international routes under star, they should be able to work out at least 5 frequencies a day.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 18504 times:

They have it now on LAX-ATL on the one daily 777, and I'm excited that I get to fly the 777LR in BizElite in January.  biggrin  There better not be an equipment sub.

User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 18424 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 1):
How so? AA/UA has 3 class with true F C and Y and DL has 2 class with C and Y. How is that on par?

He is talking about the seats in the premium class sections. That how it is on par. The Delta seats are equal to the F and C seats on AA and UA.


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4875 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 18411 times:
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Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 7):
They have it now on LAX-ATL on the one daily 777, and I'm excited that I get to fly the 777LR in BizElite in January.

I am not sure whether the new "U.S. BusinessElite" on JFK-LAX/SFO will feature improved catering, amenties, etc., but if it does, it will be different from simply having an international aircraft operating a domestic route (like the 77L on LAX-ATL). The 77L on LAX-ATL even though offers the full-flat BE product, is essentially a domestic flight and features domestic everything - cheaper meals, cheaper pillows, cheaper blankets; basically there is nothing "elite" about the LAX-ATL 77L flight other than the seat  Smile

Years ago (in the 1990s), DL used to have a branded "U.S. Business Elite" product on its JFK-LAX/SFO flights which featured printed menus, meals from well-known NYC restaurants like Gotham Bar & Grill, etc. But it was not financially viable, primarily because there were simply too many BE seats for sale (back then, the 763ERs used on the route had 48 BE seats), and DL was not running its NYC operation very well (in terms of marketing, corporate contracts, network, etc.) back then....


User currently offlineAtlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 18329 times:

I bet they will tweak it to give more of the International product domestically. I mean heck offer something like that on a Transcon and not only make the connecting BE international pax happy by creating a near seamless offering but you bring something that VA,B6,AA and UA wouldnt offer.


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
User currently offlineJimpop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 18237 times:



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 7):
They have it now on LAX-ATL on the one daily 777, and I'm excited that I get to fly the 777LR in BizElite in January. biggrin There better not be an equipment sub.

....in 1 week for me.  Cool


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24858 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 18182 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):
This puts DL on par with AA and UA in premium cabin offerings on the transcon markets.

Last I checked DL was 2-class. AA and UA are 3-class.

Might be on par with VX now.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 8):
The Delta seats are equal to the F and C seats on AA and UA.

I dont know about you, but how can this rather traditional 757 BE seat

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Agustin Anaya


equal this?
Big version: Width: 450 Height: 321 File size: 52kb


Maybe C to C is equivalent, but DL's 757 BE does not touch F imo.

When DL decides to add its lie-flat product on the 757s then we can talk.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineBlueman87 From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 535 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 18167 times:

are the JFK-LHR goin to be a 777LR or the 764


B6 T5 JFK DL T2/3 JFK
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32613 posts, RR: 72
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 18104 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):

This puts DL on par with AA and UA in premium cabin offerings on the transcon markets.

Not really.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 8):
The Delta seats are equal to the F and C seats on AA and UA.

Since when is Delta's aging BizElite product comparable to AA and UA's three-class product? Both AA and UA have a lie-flat product in F and similar wide, comfortable cradle seats in C. UA tops them all in the back with an Economy Plus product throughout coach.

Even further than that, what really sets UA and AA apart on this route is the heightened level of on-board service (AA's AFS service, which is also used on MIA, IAD, EWR and BOS transcons; and UA's p.s. service). It goes far beyond the nicer seats. The meal service on these routes is top-notch. An excellent wine-list, "dine at your request" service, great entrees, hot-fudge sundaes and baked on-board cookies before landing.

It does make Delta more competitive, definitely. It still is a subpar product, and likely won't help Delta make their way out from the junk-fare position they have in the market, where their average one-way fare is about $180 less than the average AA fare and, IIRC, $250+ below UA's average fare.

If DL wants to be a player in the JFK-LAX/SFO market, they need to introduce a 3-class product and a heightened level of on-board amenities. And find a way to steal entertainment industry travel contracts, arguably the most lucrative in the industry.



a.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 18069 times:



Quoting Jimpop (Reply 11):
....in 1 week for me.

I flew it last month. Not that impressed. Food service all comes on one tray, seats surprisingly uncomfortable for a tall person.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
Maybe C to C is equivalent, but DL's 757 BE does not touch F imo.

Yeah, but there is a limited paid F market between JFK and LAX/SFO. The J market is where it's at. UA and AA keep the F in these planes due to contracts with studios and tech companies, but there are only so many of those tickets to be sold.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24858 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 18052 times:

Out of curiosity are these DL BE 757 wi-fi equipped? If not probably would help in this market.

AA and VX are fully, while UA's 1st wifi 757 enters service this week with rest of fleet by Thanksgiving and B6 continues to equip remainder of its fleet.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4002 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 17870 times:

Always amazing the spin some of DL's actions get here. This Winter DL is almost entirely removing the 757 from JFK-Europe service. Only Lyon and Manchester get to keep it with some destinations like Frankfurt upgraded to 767 but most 757 destinations becoming seasonal. What to do then with a bunch of 757s fitted with an outdated long-haul business class cabin? Throw them onto transcons and fancify the move.

The reality is that these are hard times and transatlantic markets are suffering even more than domestic ones. There is no way to make money serving secondary cities in Europe with 2 or 3 times a week service.


User currently offlineJDAirCEO From Uruguay, joined Jan 2006, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 17845 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
Yeah, but there is a limited paid F market between JFK and LAX/SFO. The J market is where it's at. UA and AA keep the F in these planes due to contracts with studios and tech companies, but there are only so many of those tickets to be sold.

Actually there is demand for true F in the market. Probably not enough for a third player but the demand does exist.

The F cabin is full on almost every flight and the only way to upgrade is to pay a full J fare, no status upgrades from J and you may not jump cabins from Y. This also entices passengers to purchase J and use miles to upgrade to F. Either way, those in the F cabin have paid good money to be there or their company did.



An MD-80 is great... in first class
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 17789 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
they need to introduce a 3-class product

Which won't happen. Not good or bad but won't happen. I don't see DL introducing 3 classes or service just for transcon flights. I don't see them stealing any of AA or UAs passengers. Nor are they going to be able to command the fare premium that UA does but it's still better than what they had. What needs to happen is them offer BizElite SERVICE. Not just the added seat with domestic first products such as food, beverages, etc. This, I think, will be a welcome change for their customer base. Not to mention any additional passengers they may pick up.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17):
What to do then with a bunch of 757s fitted with an outdated long-haul business class cabin?

Out-dated? Weren't the cabins updated within the year? Yes, it is a recliner seat but much better than what they were offering (standard domestic F seats).



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32613 posts, RR: 72
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 17754 times:



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 19):
What needs to happen is them offer BizElite SERVICE.

Agreed. This would be a tremendous boost.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 19):
Out-dated? Weren't the cabins updated within the year? Yes, it is a recliner seat but much better than what they were offering (standard domestic F seats).

They are nonetheless outdated. While AA and CO are have installed/are installing lie-flat C products on their long-haul 757s, DL has installed an out-dated recliner seat. The fact that the seats are "new" doesn't change the fact they are outdated. That being said, a lie-flat seat isn't as important on a domestic flight than a trans-Atlantic. But, then again, JFK-SFO is blocked only 10 minutes less than JFK-DUB.



a.
User currently offlineAV8AJET From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 17694 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 16):
Out of curiosity are these DL BE 757 wi-fi equipped? If not probably would help in this market.

No they are not, and the IFE is not satelite based either.



"To fly or not to fly there is no question!"
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 17694 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 20):
The fact that the seats are "new" doesn't change the fact they are outdated. That being said, a lie-flat seat isn't as important on a domestic flight than a trans-Atlantic.

You got me there. Very good point. I'm not sure of how they foresee their mix of J/Y capacity on their TATL 757s but I always thought it would have been a better idea to install the smaller BizElite seats found on the 764 in their 757s. Even if for product streamlining sake.

Brings me to another question. Have they finally settled on that seat? It was my understanding that they were taking feedback on the LHR runs and many were not very good. Biggest one being that the seat itself was a bit too narrow.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 17682 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
If DL wants to be a player in the JFK-LAX/SFO market, they need to introduce a 3-class product and a heightened level of on-board amenities.

No, they don't. Fares on transcon markets are still highly under pressure. You need to offer a premium product but you need to do it without running costs through the roof. I can assure you that DL's CASM will be far below UA and AA on these routes in addition to what it is on their overall systems... and that translates directly into an ability to match fares and undercut corporate contracts.

DL clearly was behind the 8 ball with premium transcon service but there is a balance between costs and looking for additional revenue. Devoting half of the cabin to premium passengers in markets where there is still significant downward pressure on fares is not the way to make the transcon markets work.

Panamair is exactly right.... DL's previous US BE product didn't work because it had too much real estate devoted to the premium cabin. 16 BE seats on a 757 provides a quality product without breaking the bank. Taking out the equivalent of 8 FC seats in order to replace the front cabin with BE is a viable way to upgrade the product.

Those of you that think AA and UA's average fares justify the expenditure might want to calculate the revenue derived from each flight along with the costs reported by AA and UA for those aircraft types.... AA and UA are clearly not making money on the transcon routes, no matter how fancy the product is.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
Yeah, but there is a limited paid F market between JFK and LAX/SFO. The J market is where it's at.

bingo....

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17):
There is no way to make money serving secondary cities in Europe with 2 or 3 times a week service.

But those cities are not served 2-3 times per week during the peak summer periods; this is clearly not a normal demand period so DL is operating reduced frequencies. This strategy is precisely the strategy that DL has done for almost 20 years since acquiring Pan Am and not surprisingly, DL's average fares on these types of routes are some of the highest on their system - which is exactly why other carriers have added service to some of these same cities like BCN, ATH, VCE.... all DL strength cities and ones that DL exclusively served from the US for years.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32613 posts, RR: 72
Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 17667 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 23):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
Yeah, but there is a limited paid F market between JFK and LAX/SFO. The J market is where it's at.

bingo....

That could not be further from the truth.

Then again, DL doesn't offer a 3-class product on the route, so I guess it is true?

Leave it to WT to spin Delta offering an out-dated 1990s business product on a trans-con route with zero elevated soft product into the most amazing thing since sliced bread.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 23):
DL's average fares on these types of routes are some of the highest on their system - which is exactly why other carriers have added service to some of these same cities like BCN, ATH, VCE..

Oh! So now average fares matter. Because I recall you pointing out recently - in showing how AA has higher average fares than Delta in markets like JFK-MXP and JFK-BCN - that average fares don't matter and we have to look at revenue.

Make up your mind.

[Edited 2009-08-25 12:55:45]


a.
25 FlyASAGuy2005 : According to the press release, wifi will be onboard. I do remember reading on widget heads a while back that a hand full of the 75Es will get wifi e
26 1337Delta764 : So, will DL reconfigure existing domestic 752s with the BusinessElite seats?
27 Cubsrule : UA offers a unique product on these two routes. Maybe that isn't the right path for DL, but by all accounts, it is performing as UA had hoped.
28 Post contains links LAXintl : I'd tend to disagree especially in United's case. For whats its worth the WSJ last summer had a story on the UA p.s. product and it was termed a "Hom
29 FlyASAGuy2005 : Not too my knowledge. There is excess capacity and they are reallocating the 75s that are already configured for such. Who knows, if they are serious
30 Ikramerica : Really? Nothing is further from the truth? Please. There is a limited paying F (3 class) market transcon. That is fact. There is strong J/2 class F d
31 WorldTraveler : Since DL hasn't even announced the hard product, how do you know? DL's transatlantic BE product is rated very highly compared with other US carriers.
32 Cubsrule : What has UA dropped at LAX in the last year or two?
33 FlyASAGuy2005 : I would surmise the same and I don't think anyone would disagree.
34 CV880 : HKG gone and reducing seats to NRT.
35 MAH4546 : And that right there is why there is not limited demand. A typical travel contract for Hollywood talent/high-level management stipulates the that a t
36 Cubsrule : I don't think the loss of a single destination has decimated PS demand...
37 OA412 : Which should be true given the fact that UA and AA offer an upgraded 3 class product while DL offers a standard domestic product on the route so way
38 MAH4546 : That's fine. Let's compare apples to apples. Delta's average fare in the market is below Virgin America and Continental. They just released a PR boas
39 DeltaL1011man : Yes. The mod will be done by the end of the year. Paperworl should be ready in a few weeks. ..........I know whats he's talking about. He is dead ass
40 LAXintl : United still remains the largest operator with boardings at LAX. Last count I saw, it was running almost exactly 200 daily flights.
41 MAH4546 : In terms of hard product, absolutely. Soft product? Not really. Also, this is clearly being done because there is no place to put them trans-Atlantic
42 Commavia : Makes sense for Delta. With Europe tanking in the winter, this is a better use for these premium-configured 757s. It will no doubt elevate their offer
43 LAXintl : Mainline, express etc. I don't think the average person notices, and certainly does not matter in the market presence context its being used here. Un
44 MAH4546 : Though, IIRC, AA/MQ are the marketshare leader for revenue at LAX.
45 WorldTraveler : You are trying to infer that DL will have a lesser product on their transcon BE service than they have on transatlantic... there is absolutely nothin
46 DeltAirlines : Wifi will be on the 757-200s - as mentioned, it's primarily because they are used domestically quite a bit. Plus, not having wi-fi would put DL at a
47 MAH4546 : There is something to support that: the fact that Delta has not advertised BizElite soft-product service on this route. Just as when AA flies 763s be
48 LAXintl : Hmm.. be an interesting thing to achieve during the winter. Esp in today's economy. 757 versus the 738 will add seats to the market, which actually m
49 Commavia : I'm not disagreeing with you at all - I completely agree that the brand is what matters, and in the LAX market, United overall has the larger brand.
50 Panamair : Assuming JFK-LAX is kept at 7x daily, JFK-SFO at 5x daily, plus the year-round 752 JFK-MAN, JFK-LYS, and JFK-DKR-ABV flights, plus the return of the
51 CO58 : Please don't try to interject logic into a discussion with WorldTraveler. Delta is the greatest and will succeed at everything they do!
52 MAH4546 : Good point. But, then again, Delta is not advertising BusinessElite on JFK-LAX/SFO has offering anything past a nicer seat.
53 CODC10 : EWR-LAX/SFO and JFK-LAX/SFO are very different markets. While CO commands a higher average fare on its transcons than DL, CO's success isn't really c
54 Klkla : This is a smart move. Delta can connect a lot of passengers from SFO and LAX to the many cities they serve in Europe via JFK and maintain the Business
55 N7371f : No that's Delta's back-up strategy after finding itself with more than a handful of leased, former TWA 757's that are suppose to be flying internatio
56 MAH4546 : Everybody is subject to their own opinion on the food's quality, but it has not been downgraded at all in the past year. That doesn't change the fact
57 CODC10 : To be more specific, no other US carrier.
58 FlyASAGuy2005 : Mark. From the press release. I think that alone is a pretty bold statement. And another. I think you will agree that choice of words in press release
59 Klkla : OK... maybe it was a year and a half ago but they definitely slahed the food quality in business on that route, I just don't rmember the exact date.
60 FlyASAGuy2005 : We have no proof of that. Again, let's all archive this thread on our hard drives until September and see what happens.
61 MAH4546 : American Airlines has implemented no reduced service standards on their trans-continental flights. The last change was in January 2006, with an expan
62 Commavia : This gets to a longer-term strategic question about Delta: I wonder - and I suspect I already know the answer - whether they really want to make JFK
63 FlyASAGuy2005 : I did one better. I emailed the director (more like department eh ) asking the question. I'll post the response if I ever get one.
64 St530 : The press release says Delta has a hub in Paris-CDG. Huh?
65 Commavia : Yeah, that's their little P.R. stunt about claiming hubs that really belong to their alliance partners - a la Paris and Amsterdam. Put of that whole
66 Mir : Not nearly as important for places like SFO and LAX that already have good connections to Europe. Why bother with connecting in oft-delayed JFK when
67 FlyASAGuy2005 : I would have to agree with David. It would be much easier to catch a direct-to-Europe flight out of LAX on Skyteam than to waste time on the transcon
68 CokePopper : ummmm that's what we are going to offer. BizElite Service on transcon flights from JFK-LAX/SFO From the press release.... "and in September will begi
69 Klkla : Well I did that just last month and flew on Air France from LAX-CDG-BCN and was very disappointed in AF business class. While they did have angled li
70 Commavia : Yeah, but that's assuming that your connection in JFK is on-time, which, these days, is becoming a bit - shall we say - problematic. JFK is a complet
71 Xdlx : If DL goes back to charging... $ dollars for each upgrade based on actual value of the ticket. Instead of giving them away with the present Medallion
72 Klkla : Well, if you were flying in Business Class you would probably spend most of your airport time in the lounge and DL's lounges in JFK are more than ade
73 LACA773 : AA's meal service is not that great. Two choices in J is not adequate. UA is even better than that. There's a recent TR in that forum and a dinner me
74 DeltAirlines : Delta has looked at the cost/benefit of it. They know they can generate $250m a year if they were to go to a UA/AA-style coupons scheme. To them, tha
75 Cubsrule : That's the alliance's issue. DL and AF could choose to make upgrading easy (IIRC, NW and KL have or had a pretty smooth arrangement). For whatever re
76 MAH4546 : Eh, I see nothing wrong with having only two choices on a domestic route. I fly MIA-LAX at every few weeks in J with the same AFS service as LAX-JFK,
77 LACA773 : It's going to be a BE service straight across the board. It sounds like they have finally woken up and realized the product they have on their transc
78 Alitalia744 : The svc is BizE. Soft-product (Food and other amenities) are to be upgraded.
79 MAH4546 : That's good to know. I'm baffled as to why Delta isn't bragging about this, because that is an important part of the upgrade. It's more than just the
80 JDAirCEO : The main point is the passengers who want F service.. the music, entertainment, and banking industry, all demand an exclusive F product that is offere
81 Alitalia744 : Because it's Delta. Not bragging about it means they still have the opportunity to change their minds before it's supposed to happen I do agree tho.
82 Jetlanta : In 2007, perhaps. Not a lot of bankers flying in F when C is available these days. To anywhere. Welcome to the new world order. This is THE single re
83 MAH4546 : Not a lot of bankers need to fly JFK-LAX, either, and entertainment/media industry is still flying F, for now at least. Though that's JFK-LAX. I wond
84 Ikramerica : That is exactly why demand is limited. The ranks of tech ceos in the bay area and orange county are NOT growing, and the ranks of A-list contract cel
85 Post contains links MAH4546 : Studios will very rarely go out of the way to cover private jet charters these days. They used to, not anymore. AA even has lounges at LAX, JFK, DFW
86 LACA773 : Thanks Mark for your take. I agree with you completely. All the extras do make a difference. I apreicate what you have to say about the main cabin ve
87 MAH4546 : Pretty much every single one. Most are with AA, some are with UA. VX has been pushing hard to start poaching them, not sure if DL has. Some studios h
88 CV880 : Who knows what will happen if the LGA/DCA slot agreement between DL&US happens and the perimeter rules at both airports are removed...a whole new bal
89 LACA773 : Thanks very much, Mark. Very very interesting. Learned something new tonight.
90 WorldTraveler : again, the evidence is overwhelming that DL is offering the same BE product as on its TATL flights; the soft elements of the service are fairly inexp
91 Mir : But SFO and LAX aren't those places - in fact, both have more single-connect service to Europe than DL could offer through JFK (or ATL, or any of the
92 Commavia : I understand that JFK already functions as a hub in a limited way (limited in the sense that it really only serves on traffic flow - U.S. to Europe).
93 Sxf24 : Then why does everyone assume CO is automatically successful on LAX/SFO-EWR because of international connections in EWR? I'm not sure I understand th
94 Sxf24 : What you're suggesting largely occurs today, though the recent build up in the regional network does serve almost purely connecting traffic; however,
95 Sxf24 : SAG related entertainment traffic is the ONLY business DL will be excluded from. I am not aware of a single other travel policy (excluding exceptions
96 United1 : Care to present that evidence? DLs press release is rather vague...
97 CODC10 : In terms of soft product, CO will likely be on par with what DL ultimately offers, since the current transcon F product is derived from the BusinessF
98 WorldTraveler : I have not made the argument that DL's upgrade of JFK-LAX/SFO is for connecting premium traffic. Since in the secondary markets, it is either DL and
99 DeltaL1011man : Delta likes doing this. Matter of fact the PR telling the F/As ablout the way they will do BizE (cart vs. tray) it said "hubs in ATL,JFK,CVG,LAX,SLC,
100 Cubsrule : What is the advantage of not trumpeting enhanced soft product in the press release? I think DL already does some of this; JFK-FRA, for instance, has
101 FlyASAGuy2005 : It should. See my last message in this reply. That's pretty bad mojo Mark . As I said I would email them yesterday. I actually got a responce THIS MO
102 CODC10 : We won't. It's extremely unlikely that CO will respond in kind to DL's move. I'll also note that DL's history in the market has been wildly inconsist
103 Jetlanta : Maybe there was no point in "not" trumpeting it. Maybe they just didn't. Decided not to. Forgot to. Didn't see the point. Whatever. Press releases ar
104 DeltaL1011man : Its going 763 because CVG got cut. I believe AMS will be going 763 from a NW 75A also.
105 Cubsrule : There's a general assumption that airlines, DL included, make their press releases as positive as possible. It matters in that it may be necessary to
106 Coalways : DL is very inconsistnet these so called BE routes to LAX/SFO probably will not be offered come summer 2010. DL has ALOT of inconstances from 3 differ
107 Surfdog75 : Question for any marketing gurus (or wanna be gurus). No one comes close to the Atlantic and Pacific coverage of DL. Rumor has it they want to use the
108 Cubsrule : The 763ERs are presently moved between Atlantic and Pacific theaters via PDX. Presumably, they could also, if necessary, be moved via SEA with no tra
109 MAH4546 : That is irrelevant to the fact that, due to a huge decrease in private jet travel, AA has seen a boost in F demand on LAX-JFK/MIA/LAS, which even hel
110 Jetlanta : You are kidding, right? You "ought to know"? You want to know something funny? When I initially read the press release I assumed it included upgraded
111 FlyASAGuy2005 : What so called BE routes to LAX/SFO. Last time this was tried was a very long time ago and it was not branded as true BizElite. They made that very c
112 FlyASAGuy2005 : The more I read some of the repsonses, the more this whole "issue" sounds so childish. First, they weren't offering BizElite service. Then, ok, yeah t
113 Sxf24 : Again, there are very few companies (mostly SAG-directed travel) that have this requirement. Yes, it looks nice to trumpet these marque names. Howeve
114 Cubsrule : Please point me to the place where I have insisted that DL has somehow failed. In my last post, I pointed out that the contents of the press release
115 Jetlanta : On my end, it seemed like you were the one overly concerned about the press release: I was the one making the point that it mattered little. But agre
116 LAXintl : I dont think so esp in NY and LA --- demanded might have softened yes, but I dont see it as a dying niche market in any respects. Just here in LA I p
117 Klkla : You got it backwards, reduced seating in the premium cabin will increase yields as they won't be in the position of having to award as many free upgr
118 Cubsrule : Could you maybe offer some evidence to back up this assertion, particularly with respect to these routes?
119 MAH4546 : No, its not, as LAXIntl explained fairly well. And again, we'll just ignore the fact that due to reduced private jet travel, AA and UA have seen a bu
120 WorldTraveler : Because BE is a well established product. DL could have trumpeted many aspects of its service but it didn't - those are also well established. ...and
121 Jimpop : Interesting. I'm tall too. I flew AA's lie-flat 777 from LAX to MIA a few weeks back, and now DL's lie-flat is in my near future. I'll have to do a g
122 DeltaCTO : While DL may not have called the JFK/LAX and JFK/SFO routes "Business Elite", DL has offered Business Class on these routes since the very first day
123 Cubsrule : You've confused me. Are the seats on the 75s new, or is the same seat that BE-equipped 75s have always had?
124 MAH4546 : Very, very few select routes have seen an increase in premium demand due to a huge decrease in private jet flying. And, again, that is demand. I've n
125 RJpieces : Only on their transcons to LAX? Or SFO too when they fly it? Indeed.
126 MAH4546 : All trans-cons (including LAX, SFO, SEA and SAN) except MCO-LAX have AFS service.
127 Commavia : JFK serves domestic connections, yes. But the primary function of the JFK hub - and by far the primary traffic flow that its schedule is optimized fo
128 Klkla : Companies offering Jet fractional ownership have had amazing growth over the last ten years and the number of U.S. airline First Class seats has decl
129 CODC10 : Bogus assertion on your part. How are you able to derive the conclusion that AA/UA are not profitable on the JFK-LAX/SFO routes (the subject of our d
130 N7371f : No new seats. Delta isn't doing anything different for this transcon dealio...except putting spare international 57's on these routes.
131 DeltaL1011man : Its the same seat the ex-TWA 752s seats have had. (the seats are kinda new though, only 2 years old I think)
132 Jetlanta : Actually, it is big leap to make such an assumption. Both AA and UA operate aircraft in highly inefficient configurations. While they obtain a revenu
133 Cubsrule : Thank you. That's what I thought. Why would any business passenger from LAX or SFO in his right mind connect in JFK when he can connect in CDG and ha
134 Post contains links NWA757300 : Check out the new video demonstrating the new lie flats on th 764: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ5u3wfLDRU
135 WorldTraveler : it actually can be done. Average fare data is published w/ the DOT. Cost data by aircraft is published. LF is published. System costs are published.
136 Cubsrule : Correct - I was just trying to figure out why they made a big deal out of the seats and not such a big deal out of the soft product in the press abou
137 MAH4546 : Some members seem to think that average fare is all we need to use, while ignoring a) revenue from BOB sales (higher on trans-cons); b) revenue from b
138 Post contains links Coalways : " target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ5u3...fLDRU Those seats Look really narrow and cramped compared to CO new Flat Beds. CO new video fo
139 Sxf24 : I'm glad there's dozens of people paying for full fare, 3-class F travel! The vast majority of other travelers, including almost all NYC-originating
140 DLMD90 : This is a great move on DL's part, let's hope they also improve the food as well, because it sure needs it!!!
141 Klkla : For all the reasons mentioned in previous posts such as frequent flier program, available upgrades, e.t.c... And I will add one more: to not have to
142 LAXintl : Its p.s. wi-fi plane (n517UA) enters service this week -- rest of 757s complete by Thanksgiving.
143 FutureUScapt : If JFK-LAX/SFO is really a route with loyal AA fliers and/or has a high percentage of paid C/F travel, wouldn't baggage fees be lower than expected s
144 Post contains links CV880 : Check out the lie flat seat installation progress on CO.....at least DL has some of it's product in the air on the 77L's and 764's. http://www.contin
145 N1120A : Interesting that you bring up CO. It would actually make some sense if CO harmonized its transcon product with that of UA. 3 class p.s. style service
146 LACA773 : Thanks for posting the answer to the question you sent in. I believe DLMD90 is speaking of DL's current JFK-LAX-JFK service, not international BE, Kl
147 SATexan : LAX-JFK route alone does not determine AA/UA's profitability. Likewise, AA/UA's profitability (or lack of it) will not determine their fate in the LA
148 MAH4546 : Prove what? I have already shown plenty of sources which you choose to ignore because you obviously have personal issues with the superior soft produ
149 N1120A : I did not know that. Is it going to be full WiFi or that light version they were talking about? LAX/SFO-JFK is not a market geared toward connections
150 MAH4546 : Agreed, but AA's new 762 F seats have 177 degrees of recline. Not exactly "lie flat" to the purest sense, but amazingly comfortable. Whether UA or AA
151 N1120A : The UA F seat is essentially a high level C cabin seat on international long haul. In fact, that was the test platform for what has become UA's new i
152 MAH4546 : Have to agree there. It's nice that they offer three choices, but often none of the three choices are that appetizing. I still love UA's p.s. F seat,
153 WorldTraveler : Ok.... I'll bite. Let us know those numbers and we'll plug them in.... still, it isn't hard to estimate those revenues since they are reported on SEC
154 Cws818 : ??????? What does this paragraph have to do with any of the points discussed above?
155 COalways : I couldnt tell how many planes Delta had finished they dont have that special feature of an installlation page on delta.com
156 Sxf24 : You continue to assert there is a significant - and growing - market for paid domestic F and C travel and because their ability to serve this market,
157 WorldTraveler : AA and UA also have costs that are above average for the network carrier segment. It is precisely for this reason that CO, DL, and NW have had profit
158 DLMD90 : I'm not speaking of Delta's BE product, I am speaking of their JFK/LAX/SFO, I have been on that route several times, and the food is still TV dinneri
159 WorldTraveler : The quote is not mine but I don't disagree w/ the sentiment... that is the whole point of this press release... DL is upgrading their product on the t
160 Cubsrule : You've listed various individual characteristics that are better than UA or AA. That in no way proves that the product is superior. That's what I'm c
161 Viscount724 : I disagree. In my experience, Pan Am's service was only average compared to their major international competitors, even in F class. In their latter y
162 Post contains links LAXintl : The Aircell go-go product used by AA, DL and VX http://www.gogoinflight.com/jahia/Ja...ia/site/gogo/participatingairlines Also listed on UA p.s. page
163 WorldTraveler : Did you experience Pan Am in the heydays of the 50s and 60s?
164 Post contains links MAH4546 : It's kind of funny that Delta can't even get a straight answer for the service that will be provided: -------------- Dear Mr. XXXX, Thank you for your
165 Atlwest1 : Shouldnt be to surprising seeing as its not an international flight to Tokyo or Nairobi. The food selection will obviously be standard continental(not
166 Klkla : You're kidding right? Los Angeles and San Francisco send many people to the secondary markets in Europe that you have arbitrarily excluded. And many
167 MAH4546 : Legroom is nowhere near as important when using a cradle seat, just like it is not very important when using a lie-flat seat. I'll take a cradle seat
168 Viscount724 : I would guess that in 90% of cases, connecting via a major hub in Europe will be faster, more convenient, and less prone to delays than connecting at
169 Cubsrule : ...but you are ignoring the other half of the equation: that those later departures also permit the business person to get something done in the Stat
170 WorldTraveler : who? Those later departures don't connect to many destinations beyond Europe. They work well for many destinations in Europe but many European hubs h
171 Cubsrule : They do, and in that regard, I should have made my point clearer. From the west coast, connections in Europe and connections in the States serve dist
172 Panamair : On the other hand, connecting via a US East Coast gateway allows one to arrive in the early morning in Europe and still have a decent day left for wo
173 Cubsrule : See my previous post...
174 Klkla : In no way, shape or form am I defensive... LOL. I am posting my opinions on a message board just like you. Just because someone disagrees with your o
175 Daron4000 : I've flown UA's C seat millions of times and I've been in AA's OGBC 767 once and didn't really notice a difference so what do you mean cradle vs. rec
176 Cubsrule : In the real world, they invariably are. You have a much better chance of taking a 3 or 4 hour delay at JFK than at CDG, and if you do that, your nice
177 WorldTraveler : I agree... I have never argued that DL did this for the purpose on increasing its share of connecting premium J traffic. That might happen but given
178 Klkla : In the real world they are not 'invariably' better off. Just because of a few highly publicized delays at JFK you make the claim that people invariab
179 Cubsrule : I hear what you are saying, and it would certainly be a good use of a 763ER. I wonder, though, whether that capacity is needed (you suggest it might
180 Klkla : I wouldn't be surprised to see this happen if demand for BE in the LAX/SFO-JFK market increases as a result of this move. DL has plenty of internatio
181 FlyASAGuy2005 : My, my my. Now this makes me a bit angry. "Somebody has som splaining to do...". this just baffles me. This is the exact OPPOSITE of the answer I rec
182 AA787 : They might get high satisfaction from customers who live in New York who would have to deal with those airports anyway. For those people coming from
183 DeltaL1011man : Did you ask just about JFK-LAX/SFO? This could by why you got this. Delta does have BizE flights outside of JFK-LAX/SFO. The 75Es pops up all over th
184 LACA773 : Thankyou, Mark! I couldn't agree more. They definitely need to do something with their main cabin service. It's embarrassing how cheap & frugal they
185 SATexan : Nope. I am not kidding. Let me restate what I said in a slightly different way: American has onward connections to all major markets that attract Biz
186 MAH4546 : I can't even count how many celebs, directors and high-power execs I have encountered, some of whom I had the pleasure of being able to spark a conve
187 Mir : p.s. wouldn't work to EWR - the 757 is too small to do hub-to-hub routes. 3-class 763s might work. Nor does Delta, though. -Mir
188 WorldTraveler : no problem. the problem w/ these discussions is that we are in a "room" where lots of ideas are flying around. I don't really care so much about who
189 SurfandSnow : Just a quick question... On these JFK-LAX/SFO flights, are we seeing primarily O&D domestic pax, or connecting overseas pax? I do find it strange that
190 Panamair : AMS is not really a premium market, and that's why AA has not entered it for so many years. There are some DL secondary European cities out of JFK th
191 Sxf24 : It's common knowledge AA carries most entertainment traffic, but is really as lucrative as everyone thinks? Its not a big market to begin with and it
192 Jetlanta : I'd like to understand where you are getting your data from. Or are you just assuming?
193 FlyASAGuy2005 : As far as the connections discussion goes; I think everyone can agree to say that it can't hurt Delta. The premise of whether or not their is loads of
194 LXA340 : I remember the days in the early 2000's when DL had at least one daily SFO-JFK flight with Business Elite service. It was a flight that was routed SFO
195 MAH4546 : Not a big market? Are you nuts? It's the reason why AA and UA run dedicated 3-class flights with dedicated fleets on LAX-JFK. It is the reason why AA
196 Jetlanta : I took a few minutes to take a look at the Sabre Adjusted MIDT data for the year ended July 2009. Delta carried about 70,438 passengers on the LAX-JF
197 Klkla : I, and many people I know, have flown to many cities in Europe via DL at JFK. Never have I or anyone I know chose a different option solely to avoid
198 MAH4546 : While details are TBD, when AA/IB/BA/RJ have ATI, part of the plan involves allowing customers on any of the carriers to use each other's miles for u
199 Cubsrule : ...but an AA customer can certainly buy a J ticket on them, right? There's not a convenient way to total the number of premium passengers flying Delt
200 FlyASAGuy2005 : Exactly.
201 Jetlanta : Yes there is. See Reply 196. And you are certainly right, as every single AF pax leaving LAX in a premium class qualifies. AF exponentially more capa
202 FlyASAGuy2005 : Thanks for the post with the numbers BTW Jetlanta. That's what I was looking for. V/r
203 Cubsrule : We can get close (and, knowing something about the relative distribution of domestic versus international connections over various DL hubs, we can ge
204 Mir : My point was that Delta doesn't offer that much beyond Europe anyway, no matter when the flights leave. So you're not missing many opportunities by c
205 Jetlanta : Even I don't know what I was trying to say here. I hate it when I don't reread my posts before sending! Only Delta would have the exact data, true. T
206 SATexan : Agreed. You helped me prove my point Please see above Again, I am not talking about business people from all over the United States. I am also not ta
207 Jetlanta : Yes, in general. I always prefer to let the facts talk. But I do think you were making some pretty significant assumptions without data to support. I
208 Sxf24 : Your claims are completely anecdotal. Yes, there has historically been demand for 3-class service on JFK-LAX/SFO. Entertainment traffic is certainly
209 Klkla : So nothing has been officially announced, therefore at the present time the answer is no. You're right in the context that they share the revenue any
210 WorldTraveler : All of DL's Mediterranean surrounding cities are highly profitable athough also highly seasonal. It is precisely for this reason that DL sticks w/ th
211 Cubsrule : It's interesting, though. His data show about 27 connecting coach passengers for every connecting J passenger, but the aircraft DL uses on the route
212 Klkla : His statistics wouldn't show customers that upgraded as coach passengers. Passengers upgrading on DL are certainly considered premium passengers beca
213 N1120A : You must have never lived in L.A. The entertainment industry is absolutely massive.
214 Sxf24 : I'm not denying its a large industry, but how many of its people are jetting back and forth between LA and NYC on a F/C/J ticket on a regular basis?
215 MAH4546 : A huge amount. AA has built LAX-JFK on entertainment industry traffic. Past that, AA has built a lot of their LAX network on entertainment industry t
216 LAXintl : Hundred+ a day easy - its not just the stars we all recognize but all the support, marketing and business staff between corporate office and working
217 MAH4546 : AA also has these teams at MIA and JFK; and at ORD and DFW to assist with connections.
218 Sxf24 : How many a day and what's the average fare? The anecdotal stories are nice (I ran into a producer flying AA F, blah, blah, blah), but I feel like the
219 DeltaCTO : In 2000/2001/2002 DL operated 767-300-ER's JFK to/from LAX (4) SFO (3) SLC (2) PHX-SAN DEN SEA-PDX ATL (2) CVG (2) At the time the 767-300-ER's were
220 MAH4546 : The proof is very clear, and you choose to ignore it, and so be it. And they aren't "my" claims. Other people are backing it up. It doesn't take a ge
221 Jetlanta : This is absolutely true. The premium data I showed was PAID premium class bookings.
222 Cubsrule : Correct, but if we assume that J and Y load factors are similar, that means they're only filling 1/3 of their J seats with paid customers. On a route
223 Sxf24 : The "proof" has been completely anecdotal to this point. I don't care how many people work in the entertainment industry: they don't all travel, and
224 Jetlanta : These numbers tell us absolutely nothing about how many paxs are paying for the front cabin in the local O&D. As I said, Delta has several other opti
225 MAH4546 : Then prove to me that: 1) Traffic between Houston and Amsterdam relies on the oil industry. 2) Traffic between Austin and San Jose relies on the tech
226 Sxf24 : This thread is about whether DL's enhanced service in the JFK-LAX/SFO can succeed against the incumbent carriers. I have repeatedly asked for you to
227 LACA773 : Dude, you obviously have no clue as to what goes in Los Angeles regarding the entertainment industry and that the majority of the motion picture stud
228 Sxf24 : I'm not denying the entertainment industry is an important customer to AA and other airlines. There is a lot of travel between LAX and NYC and some o
229 WorldTraveler : The bottom line is that any claims about the size of a particular market or segment should be able to be substantiated by evidence. The fact that ther
230 Cubsrule : They don't, although if the local load factor is much higher in front than in back (and assuming that local traffic is preferable in terms of yields)
231 WorldTraveler : Given that the 762s almost exclusively fly the transcons for AA, they could reconfigure them if they chose to do so. Upgrades are a very common part o
232 WorldTraveler : The room would still like to know some sort of substantive answer (such as some sort of a verifiable statistic) that you use to make this claim/guess
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