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Why Is VX Using International Terminals?  
User currently offlineJetBlue777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 1468 posts, RR: 1
Posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6563 times:

Hi, I just wonder why VX is using international terminals in JFK and SFO and they are a domestic carrier?


It's a cultural thing.
36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJolau1701 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6562 times:

Because there's no room for them in the Domestic terminals until the old D-terminal is ready?

User currently offlineRidgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6522 times:

There is no space for them in the domestic terminals.

Something interesting that is similar to this, was that in the early 80's when Mid Pacific started up, HA and AQ had a major hissy fit about allowing them in the Interisland Terminal...so they located to the main terminal. As time went on, it became very apparent that it was easier to use Mid Pacific for connections to get to the other islands, than making the trek to the interisland terminal, and many travelers opted for the Mid Pacific which affected the loads at HA and AQ. It wasn't long until the 2 that lobbied to keep Mid Pacific out of the itnerisland terminal were pushing for their move to the interisland terminal.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6509 times:

FWIW, when VX decides to pay market rates for ORD gates, they'll likely be in the international terminal there too.

VX isn't the only one to do this, either, as many airports have more gate space at their international gates than elsewhere. B6 uses an international gate at CLT, for instance, and F9 uses an international gate at MDW (as have, at various times, DL, UA, and US).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAtomsareenough From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 566 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6421 times:



Quoting Jolau1701 (Reply 1):
Because there's no room for them in the Domestic terminals until the old D-terminal is ready?

 checkmark  Yep, at SFO there's no room anywhere else, so they'll be in the International Terminal until the Terminal 2 renovation is complete, which I believe is scheduled to be around January or February 2011.


User currently offlineTharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1867 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6365 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
VX isn't the only one to do this, either, as many airports have more gate space at their international gates than elsewhere. B6 uses an international gate at CLT, for instance, and F9 uses an international gate at MDW (as have, at various times, DL, UA, and US).

also WN at BOS.

No exit controls in this country, so it really doesn't matter.


User currently offlineN623JB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6233 times:

Please put under consideration that jetBlue has a partnership with Aer Lingus/Lufthansa and Aer Lingus is located right in the same terminal as well, which allows easy access to connecting flights(Aer Lingus pax to jetBlue flights). Also, jetBlue may do international expansion from SFO as well(never know).  Smile


Bring JetBlue To Mexico City! (TLC and/or MEX would be great)
User currently offlineGothamSpotter From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6185 times:

VX is not the only domestic-only carrier in JFK's T4...Sun Country operates out of there, as well.

User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8913 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks ago) and read 6146 times:

Not uncommon for all airlines to use Concourse E in Atlanta as well to deboard overnight arrivals - their own gates are tied up, Concourse E is pretty open (not many international overnights), so they'll park them there, get everyone off and then tow them back in the morning to the regular gates for departure.

At JFK T-4, Delta/Northwest also operate domestic flights out of there - all NW flights (DTW, MSP, MEM) and Delta's LAX flights are all T-4 departures. CO was in T4 for a while too before leaving JFK a year ago.


User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5920 times:
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The only terminals in JFK that are not "international" (dont have FIS facilities) are terminals 2 and 5 and those terminals are single carrier terminals so an international terminal is the only option in JFK.


The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5682 times:



Quoting Tharanga (Reply 5):
also WN at BOS.

Interesting; I thought they were in the domestic ex-NW gates (E1 rather than E2). Did that change?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5702 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5588 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 10):

Interesting; I thought they were in the domestic ex-NW gates (E1 rather than E2). Did that change?

WN has E1A and E1B at BOS. Whatever gate those are at BOS, Domestic or Intl thats what WN is at . I don't know BOS area to determine what type of gates those are.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5537 times:



Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 11):
WN has E1A and E1B at BOS.

Those are domestic gates (though they are in the international terminal).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15831 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5452 times:

Also, don't most international terminals have common use gates? Could this be saving VX some money?


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineLive2fly83 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 151 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4858 times:

actually there was room for them in the domestic terminal a few years ago (the same section WN now uses) however, operationally and aesthetically the Intl section was a better fit for the brand


"come fly with me"
User currently offlineMarcoPoloWorld From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 654 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3943 times:

I don't know about others, but I really have an issue with a major airport like SFO building an International Terminal, designed for int'l ops, having to provide overflow space for domestic operations.

SFO could easily manage the domestic ops completely via the domestic terminals if they didn't indulge in their "gate lease" nonsense business. Just assign gates to inbound flights as they become available, and manage them efficiently. That's the most optimal use of resources, and then you would avoid having this confusing setup, where you name a terminal "International" but it's really some domestic overflow stuff going on there. It wasn't designed for major domestic ops - as a small example, the departure displays in the International Terminal aren't set up to properly handle domestic flights (which add frequencies galore), so if you arrive even just a few hours ahead of your int'l flight, you can't view the info on the screens because it's outcrowded past the bottom by all the domestic departures.

Theoretically, this will all end when Terminal 2 reopens. But I have a sneaky suspicion that some of the domestic operations currently taking place in Terminal 1 will shift "temporarily" to the International Terminal after that, due to Terminal 1's planned renovation and expansion. If someone has good news to the contrary, let me know.


User currently offlineAnonms From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 623 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3849 times:



Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 15):
Theoretically, this will all end when Terminal 2 reopens. But I have a sneaky suspicion that some of the domestic operations currently taking place in Terminal 1 will shift "temporarily" to the International Terminal after that, due to Terminal 1's planned renovation and expansion. If someone has good news to the contrary, let me know.

Unfortunately, the temporary shift of flights from B to A (and possibly the new D if VX and B6 aren't too expanded by then) is doing to be the case while B gets rebuilt.



This is my signature.
User currently offlineAtomsareenough From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 566 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3728 times:



Quoting Anonms (Reply 16):
Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 15):
Theoretically, this will all end when Terminal 2 reopens. But I have a sneaky suspicion that some of the domestic operations currently taking place in Terminal 1 will shift "temporarily" to the International Terminal after that, due to Terminal 1's planned renovation and expansion. If someone has good news to the contrary, let me know.

Unfortunately, the temporary shift of flights from B to A (and possibly the new D if VX and B6 aren't too expanded by then) is doing to be the case while B gets rebuilt.

Yeah, I think it's almost inevitable, unless traffic goes way down. Depending on gate demand, they might not be able to close down B all at once, but even then, I'm sure some current B carriers will have to move over to the A concourse.

I don't think it's final, but I'm pretty sure B6 isn't going to be in Terminal 2 when it opens. That's not what I'm hearing, anyway. I think there is going to be a pretty big gate shuffle all over the airport after Terminal 2 is done.


User currently offlineAnonms From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 623 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3664 times:



Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 17):
Yeah, I think it's almost inevitable, unless traffic goes way down. Depending on gate demand, they might not be able to close down B all at once, but even then, I'm sure some current B carriers will have to move over to the A concourse.

I don't think it's final, but I'm pretty sure B6 isn't going to be in Terminal 2 when it opens. That's not what I'm hearing, anyway. I think there is going to be a pretty big gate shuffle all over the airport after Terminal 2 is done.

It's pretty much certain; there's a powerpoint on the internet I linked to in some other thread (I think it was about sterile connectors between concourses at SFO); once T2 is finished, the projected amount of available gates is slated to go back down to their current level because of B being redone. It's possible they could do it in phases to keep old parts of B temporarily intact, though.

As for B6, I heard that it was likely them that would join VX over at T2. We'll see in a year or two, I guess.



This is my signature.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3616 times:



Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 15):
That's the most optimal use of resources, and then you would avoid having this confusing setup, where you name a terminal "International" but it's really some domestic overflow stuff going on there.

Wouldn't the simplest solution be to rename the terminal? If they have the space, they might as well use it.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAnonms From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 623 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3574 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 19):
Wouldn't the simplest solution be to rename the terminal? If they have the space, they might as well use it.

The domestic use part is just as overflow, though. The terminal's primary purpose is as an international terminal. Hence why there's, what, 24 gates and only 2 domestic baggage carousels hidden behind locked doors that are only opened when there is a domestic flight landing.



This is my signature.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3555 times:

Quoting Anonms (Reply 20):
The domestic use part is just as overflow, though.

Right, just like Terminal 5 at ORD and E at ATL and D at CLT and all the rest. But again, why build more domestic gates when the existing (international) gates can cover the excess demand?

[Edited 2009-08-27 10:36:16]


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAtomsareenough From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 566 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3535 times:



Quoting Anonms (Reply 18):
once T2 is finished, the projected amount of available gates is slated to go back down to their current level because of B being redone. It's possible they could do it in phases to keep old parts of B temporarily intact, though.

As for B6, I heard that it was likely them that would join VX over at T2. We'll see in a year or two, I guess.

Actually, it'll probably go down lower than the current level; T2 is going to be 14 gates, and B is 18 gates. If it's possible, they will close B down entirely because it would save the airport a ton of money on the project if they can do the whole thing at once. If traffic is too high though, they'll probably have to keep a few B gates open while they build the new concourse. But, they might not need to. By my informal count, there's a free gate in C, plus when DL/NW fully consolidate, that might save a gate... And once the airlines complete their shuffling, that might save a gate or two as well.

I think it's possible, and this is just speculation at this point, that AA might move to T-2 with VX. That could potentially free up E for CO and US, which would bring all the Star Alliance carriers together on one side of the airport in T-3 and G. Again, who knows how it will eventually all pan out, though. I think nothing is settled yet.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 19):
Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 15):
That's the most optimal use of resources, and then you would avoid having this confusing setup, where you name a terminal "International" but it's really some domestic overflow stuff going on there.

Wouldn't the simplest solution be to rename the terminal? If they have the space, they might as well use it.

That's the thing though, it's not just domestic overflow. Sure, B6 and VX fly out of A, but so do a ton of international carriers. NW flies to Japan, OZ and KE fly out of there to Korea, QF to Australia, CX to Hong Kong, WS to Canada... JL, BA, VS, AF, KL, PR, etc...


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3528 times:



Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 22):
That's the thing though, it's not just domestic overflow.

They wouldn't need to call it a domestic terminal (that would be false). Just slap someone's name on it-- the Nancy Pelosi Terminal or some such.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAtomsareenough From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 566 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3514 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):

They wouldn't need to call it a domestic terminal (that would be false). Just slap someone's name on it-- the Nancy Pelosi Terminal or some such.

Hah, that's an interesting idea, but considering that none of the other terminals are named, it would just add confusion for the passengers. The current setup (terminals IT/1/2/3, and boarding areas A, B, C, D, E, F, G in order) makes a lot of intuitive sense.


25 Anonms : I think the most logical gate shuffle would be to dump dump all of Star into T3 as you said and put DL and AS in B (and fill it and C with other carr
26 Cubsrule : It does, but couldn't the international terminal be 4? The trouble is that it comes before 1 and after 3...
27 ExFATboy : Not entirely correct - only JetBlue's international arrivals are in T4 with Aer Lingus. All other JetBlue arrivals, and all departures, are in T5, Je
28 Cubsrule : Does T-5 have any widebody gates? Before too long, EI will be able to arrive at domestic gates.
29 ExFATboy : That's a good question - I'd forgotten we'll have full pre-clearance soon. I don't know the answer to that one - I've only flown out of the new T5 on
30 N623JB : [quote=ExFATboy,reply=27] I was referring to SFO not JFK. Aer Lingus and jetBlue @ SFO are at the same Terminal. sorry for the confusion.
31 MarcoPoloWorld : That's why I also raised in the same post the issue about implementing more common-use gates in the domestic terminals. So on that note - does anybod
32 Anonms : A1, A3, A5, A11, and A12. Wait, those are in the international terminal. There are no actual common-use domestic gates.
33 SurfandSnow : Some competitors seem to think that VX is not actually a domestic carrier at all
34 Atomsareenough : That's correct. It's my understanding that even the new T-2 gates aren't going to be common-use.
35 ExFATboy : Ah, my mistake, but no worries, it led to an interesting sidebar conversation. I don't believe that the JetBlue/Aer Lingus partnership allows for Aer
36 FlyASAGuy2005 : It would be the exact opposite in Atlanta. E is pretty expensive compared to the other gates.
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