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Ryanair Boss 'Disapproves' Of 'Insane' HSR For UK  
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2711 posts, RR: 4
Posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 15248 times:

What a surprise! The red neck of the airline industry, O'Leary, thinks the UK would be 'insane' to replace short-haul air travel by HSR, as proposed by the government. Presumably, this is because it has been so spectacularly successful in doing so everywhere else and he loses market share. Personally, I can't think of a better reason:

HSR has completely eliminated short haul flights on many French, German, Spanish and Belgian regional routes, as well as in Japan. The south of the UK is more densely populated than almost any part of continental Europe and is a STRONGER candidate for HSR than France or the the other listed countries other than Japan. It only political confusion, mismanagement and opportunists that have held back UK's HSR network after they were such pioneers of rail from its inception.

Isn't it rather 'insane' that the UK has neglected it's once glorious rail network so long and that there is still such an uninformed debate running?


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...05/high-speed-rail-airline-flights

[Edited 2009-08-26 05:31:11]

[Edited 2009-08-26 05:38:27]


When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
176 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDogbreath From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15125 times:

A bit of competition is great for the consumer, but what is not so great is that this Govt wants to replace air travel with rail travel. I'm guessing that's what MoL is not so keen on.

Bring on the HSR, and if the fares equal LCC's then wonderful. But I just don't see it. As it is today, an average rail service from Portsmouth to London and return (2 hour round trip) costs me in the region of Stg25. Can't even imagine what a HSR fare would cost.



Truth, Honour, Loyalty
User currently onlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 716 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15117 times:

Which FR services would be affected? They don't serve London-Manchester, which would be the best idea for a high speed rail link.
Here in Germany some route were replaced by rail: TXL to HAM and HAJ, FRA-CGN (were you can even check in your bags). MUC-NUE is also served by high speed train, though flights survived, the same with MAD-BCN or London-Paris.



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2711 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15094 times:



Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 1):
A bit of competition is great for the consumer, but what is not so great is that this Govt wants to replace air travel with rail travel. I'm guessing that's what MoL is not so keen on.

Bring on the HSR, and if the fares equal LCC's then wonderful. But I just don't see it. As it is today, an average rail service from Portsmouth to London and return (2 hour round trip) costs me in the region of Stg25. Can't even imagine what a HSR fare would cost.

The government can't force air travel to be "replaced". It can only facilitate other options. Careful of the propaganda machine.

What is there so special about the UK to condemn HSR to failure whilst it is a spectacular success elsewhere, appart from perhaps a lack of imagination?



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently onlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19188 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15073 times:

He is allowed to say what he thinks, and to spin it however he wants for his business. Obviously he would always discuss it in his characteristically forthright manner.

I find it quite interesting on two fronts. Firstly, FR barely operates domestic UK services if you exclude BHD. Nevertheless, its number-one route is STN-PIK-STN that carried 402,615 in 2008, and this would obviously be impacted by the proposed HSR between London and Glasgow. Secondly, if this idea materialises it won't be fully implemented for 10+ years.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineDavehammer From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 472 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15033 times:

Should have been built years ago and connected to both LHR and LGW. I hope that work finally gets started and we can have a proper High Speed network running. LON-GLA/EDI in 2 1/2 hours would be brilliant as well as MAN in just over an hour.

Hope they finally agree to the plan and just get on with it!


User currently offlineStyles9002 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 526 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15002 times:



Quoting OzGlobal (Thread starter):
What a surprise! The red neck of the airline industry, O'Leary

I don't understand why you refer to O'Leary as a 'red neck' in the industry. Would you please clarify what the reference is to and how it relates to your point?



It is what it is.
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2711 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14957 times:

Quoting Styles9002 (Reply 6):
Quoting OzGlobal (Thread starter):
What a surprise! The red neck of the airline industry, O'Leary

I don't understand why you refer to O'Leary as a 'red neck' in the industry. Would you please clarify what the reference is to and how it relates to your point?

In my opinion, O'Leary :

- Maintains an often vulgar communication style in public and shows contempt for alternative points of view, for his competitors and for his customers
- Maintains a cynical attitude to customers and customer service, that cannot be explained by the low cost nature of the business alone, as Easyjet and others do not replicate this behaviour
- Based on the events of recent years, 3 emergency landings in France, 2 after explosive decompression at altitude with 16 passengers with burst eardrums,due to loose panels on newish 737's that were simply used too often and not maintained sufficiently, I would propose also, a potentially casual attitude to maintenance.

And this relates to my point because branding the much needed government proposed HSR network in UK as 'insane' because it eats into your market is more of the same from this guy.


[Edited 2009-08-26 06:02:27]

[Edited 2009-08-26 06:03:26]

[Edited 2009-08-26 06:05:55]


When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9149 posts, RR: 29
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14909 times:



Quoting Styles9002 (Reply 6):
don't understand why you refer to O'Leary as a 'red neck' in the industry. Would you please clarify what the reference is to and how it relates to your point?

I would consider that statement as an insult to red necks as well.

 Wink

There is no reason for airlines to be afraid of HSR. It depends on how the poulation centres are spread over a country. In centralized France, HSR has indeed killed a lot of air routes, in Germany the few routes have been mentioned above, CGN-STR can be added as the remaining other one. It may have thinned out some routes like FRA to DUS/HAJ/STR as well as DUS-STR but the impact really has not been that big.

The UK is a centralized country as well but with the exception of LON-MAN most routes will remain, eventually some will be thinned out or the effect will be taken by increased ridership.

What MOL may have to fear is, that coach or second class on trains may be more comfortable, without the ridiculous baggage restrictions FR imposes and that is the real threat to his business.

In any case, the completion of HSR lines takes a long time, nothing to be set up about today.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently onlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14870 times:



Quoting OzGlobal (Thread starter):
HSR has completely eliminated short haul flights on many French, German, Spanish and Belgian regional routes, as well as in Japan.

Sorry, but you have lost all credibility with this statement. I don't know the truthfulness of your statement WRT high speed rail in Europe (I assume it is a gross exaggeration) but high speed rail has not come close to eliminating any reigonal routes in Japan. None. Period. The statement is an out and out falsehood.


User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14869 times:



Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 2):
FRA-CGN

Well, these hops of 20 minutes in the 727 were really to short. Big grin

Axel



Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineShankly From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 1540 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14828 times:



Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 4):
Secondly, if this idea materialises it won't be fully implemented for 10+ years

Hopelessly optimistic. 15/20 years is the true timescale for such a significant public sector project in the UK. Absolutely nothing in place at this time planning or funding wise to even get excited about. For a case study check out Crossrail.

MOL, bless him, will be in his low cost bath-chair (painted blue and yellow with non-adjustable footrests and non-pneumatic tyres) by the time the first train pulls into Glasgow



L1011 - P F M
User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3535 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14827 times:



Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 1):
Bring on the HSR, and if the fares equal LCC's then wonderful. But I just don't see it. As it is today, an average rail service from Portsmouth to London and return (2 hour round trip) costs me in the region of Stg25. Can't even imagine what a HSR fare would cost.



Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 4):
Nevertheless, its number-one route is STN-PIK-STN that carried 402,615 in 2008, and this would obviously be impacted by the proposed HSR between London and Glasgow.

This is a prime example of the competition that HSR would provide. FR's low cost service from London to Glasgow, actually runs from about 30 miles out of each City. Most people spend more money and time on the journey at each end than they do on the flight.

HSR could be 3x the FR STN-PIK fare and probably still be a bargain to many travellers.


User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14811 times:

The much needed HSR network will never appear in MOL's lifetime or that of his children or even probably his grandchildren. How long did it take to build the high speed rail link in the UK between London and the Channel Tunnel, which is not even a quarter of the length of the proposed HSR? MOL has nothing to worry about, besides which the cost of travelling on the HSR will probably only be for the wealthy, MPs and businessmen on expenses accounts.

For once I agree with everything that MOL says. In fact I think he put his case across brilliantly, in particular

Quote:
"On [return] domestic flights from Glasgow to London, passengers are paying £20 in taxes while they continue to subsidise the sh$t out of the railways. Substituting one form of transport that is heavily taxed for a form of transport that is heavily subsidised is not the answer."




MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2711 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14792 times:



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 9):



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 9):
Quoting OzGlobal (Thread starter):
HSR has completely eliminated short haul flights on many French, German, Spanish and Belgian regional routes, as well as in Japan.

Sorry, but you have lost all credibility with this statement. I don't know the truthfulness of your statement WRT high speed rail in Europe (I assume it is a gross exaggeration) but high speed rail has not come close to eliminating any reigonal routes in Japan. None. Period. The statement is an out and out falsehood.

Sorry, but if you don't know the 'truthfulness' of a statement and "assume it is a gross exaggeration" then credibility I suggest will be difficult for anyone to maintain for you.

For Germany: please see reply 2

For CDG - Brussells - ALL flights have been discontinued and are now sold as train ticket sectors. Further, AF will soon start ITS OWN HSR train services from CDG-Brussels-Amsterdam.

AF flights Paris to Lyon, Avignon, Lille, Dijon, Strasbourg and Marsaille are all etiher eliminated or 80% reduced.

Paris - London - 80% HSR 20% air travel, same for London - Brussels

Madrid - Barcelona is a recent line but currently has more than 50% of traffic I believe and steadily increasing.

Japan - I may be wrong and will check which routes are concerned.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4917 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14739 times:



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 14):
For CDG - Brussells - ALL flights have been discontinued

Picky, but Brussels Airlines retain one daily flight for African connections at BRU (There is no Paris-Brussels Airport train service is there?)



Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2804 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14718 times:



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 9):

Sorry, but you have lost all credibility with this statement. I don't know the truthfulness of your statement WRT high speed rail in Europe (I assume it is a gross exaggeration) but high speed rail has not come close to eliminating any reigonal routes in Japan. None. Period. The statement is an out and out falsehood.

Eliminating, no. But in France, there's strong competition between TGV and air carriers. We're not a large country, so taking the HST is much more convenient than taking the plane.

So his statement is not entirely false.



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineEI564 From Ireland, joined May 2007, 373 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14681 times:



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 14):
For CDG - Brussells - ALL flights have been discontinued and are now sold as train ticket sectors. Further, AF will soon start ITS OWN HSR train services from CDG-Brussels-Amsterdam.

How well trains replaces flying partly depends on whether the HSR actually goes to an airport. CDG is a good example of an airport with HSR. But some flights survive between London and CDG because there is no HSR in any of the London airports.

Of course, there are a number of other factors too.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7688 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14668 times:
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Quoting OzGlobal (Thread starter):
HSR has completely eliminated short haul flights on many French, German, Spanish and Belgian regional routes as well as in Japan

That's rather overstating it.

Quoting OzGlobal (Thread starter):
Isn't it rather 'insane' that the UK has neglected it's once glorious rail network so long

Yes, it certainly is. It's a national disgrace.

Quoting OzGlobal (Thread starter):
and that there is still such an uninformed debate running?

I should imaging that Michael O'Leary is far from uninformed about such matters.

In general, I am not exactly shocked that the boss of a major airline would speak out in favour of aviation over rail travel. Hardly the surprise of the century now, is it?



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9149 posts, RR: 29
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14647 times:



Quoting EI564 (Reply 17):
How well trains replaces flying partly depends on whether the HSR actually goes to an airport.

take an example - if STR airport gets connected to the HSR line STR-south-MUC, that will elimiate the remaining FRA-STR flights.

OTH - NUE-MUC flights still exist because MUC was not conncted to the HGSR and it takes about as long to get from MUC central station to the airport as it takes from NUE

The flights on the above mentioned routes however already today mainly serve connecting traffic, hardly any local passengers. That goes for the LON/PAR flights as well..



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2711 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14590 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 18):
Quoting OzGlobal (Thread starter):
HSR has completely eliminated short haul flights on many French, German, Spanish and Belgian regional routes as well as in Japan

That's rather overstating it.

Then check details in reply 14. The principle stands.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7688 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14547 times:
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Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 20):
Then check details in reply 14. The principle stands.

And? I'm not saying it hasn't had a large impact, it obviously has, but it almost reads as though it has totally killed off domestic flying in those countries and that is clearly not the case.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14515 times:

This happened with Southwest Airlines in Texas back in the late 80s and early 90s.

Texas had one of the first serious high speed rail plans in the US, basically a triangle linking Houston, San Antonio and Dallas (similar to WNs first routes). Southwest lobbied hard to kill the commision and the plan. To be fair there were other groups involved, but the HSR would already be running if WN and others hadn't killed it.
Texas has no rail link between its two largest metros Houston-Dallas.

as for FR, seems MOL is doing what he does best-his personal PR musings/rants.



Ciao Windjet mi manchi
User currently onlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19188 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 14455 times:



Quoting Shankly (Reply 11):
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 4):
Secondly, if this idea materialises it won't be fully implemented for 10+ years

Hopelessly optimistic. 15/20 years is the true timescale

I got it from BBC News who got it from others. Hardly the first time projects have been exaggerated time-wise.  Wink



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineMogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 14412 times:

yea, i'm, like, TOTALLY shocked that the master of short-haul nickel-and-dime would be against the convenient reliable environmental-friendly alternative of HSR  Embarrassment

LCCs can't thrive in French or German domestic markets because of the immense success of HSR. The trend is inevitable, esp with all the hassle dealing with airport security and stuff. Instead of fighting the trend, how about considering a partnership with DB or SNCF (or any rail), then he can sell tickets like Dublin to Interlaken Switzerland, or Madrid to Bonn Deutschland.


25 Post contains links Rheinwaldner : - At the opening of the HSR route Tokio-Nagoya flight were abandoned. - In 2005 between Tokio and Osaka HSR traffic share was 81%, air traffic share w
26 RussianJet : Why does Nagoya airport's website show arrivals from Narita then?
27 ArniePie : With regards to the whole HSL projects going on or already been build in Continental Europe and in a way also in Japan there are always two things tha
28 Nighthawk : so should MOL instead wait until funding IS in place before voicing his opinion? How about waiting until the first train pulls into the station befor
29 Shankly : Which proves Pe@rson you should not believe everything you read or hear in the media before requoting it on as fact. No, not really. Gets himself on
30 T8KE0FF : Im flying BHX-GLA tomorrow afternoon as it's half the price than trains. I would consider train's if they were cheaper...
31 Pe@rson : Thanks, Dad. That cheered me up.
32 AirbusA6 : I would imagine that HSR would be more expensive than the current cheapest LCC domestic flights, but that as it would scoop up the more expensive busi
33 Shankly : My pleasure. Now off to your room Pe@rson and write 100 times "MOL is my hero, but i do sometimes miss the wood for the trees" Regards, Shankly
34 Bongodog1964 : In answer to the subsidy question, how much fuel duty does FR pay ?
35 Pe@rson : You're my hero Shankly, not MOL! Regards, Pe@rson. P.S. If you're correct with your estimation that it would take 15-20 years, then all the better fo
36 Par13del : A question, if carbon taxes will be levied on existing domestic RyanAir routes, how much money will the govt. loose by "killing" local air traffic or
37 VV701 : The claim of an 80 per cent market share even exceeds that made by Eurostar themselves in their own publicity. Here is what they said in a press rele
38 AirNz : No-one suggested they were 'forcing'......the comment made was 'wants'. Two very different comments entirely. What exactly are you talking about? The
39 Pe@rson : FR has minimal routes on which people could instead choose to travel overland by train, coach or car: EDI-BOH-EDI STN-PIK-STN STN-NQY-STN Including N
40 BrouAviation : I won't react on the MOL-related part, as some people are not going to like it. Just some nitpicking. I thought LH still flies this route?
41 N1120A : Those two sentences are mutually exclusive. That actually is quite possible. As it is, flying one of the old Flag carriers is often cheaper than FR w
42 BrouAviation : They do the other way round though (HAM-TXL). LH3206 leaves HAM tomorrow morning 1055LT for flight to TXL.
43 N1120A : Some sort of aircraft positioning flight? OAG does not have any flights between HAM and TXL, in either direction. Neither does Lufthansa's website.
44 RussianJet : Right, and I assumed as much - but either way it is a fact that there are still flights between Tokyo and Nagoya.
45 PanHAM : No local traffic is carried. These flights continue resp. come from Moscow. Routing is HAM-TXL-DME-TXL-HAM In order to be profitable HSR needs to ser
46 Bongodog1964 : Pray tell me where any reference to LHR, LGW or "legacy" carriers is applicable to my statement. if you cared to read it, it was a comparison between
47 BrouAviation : They are. I found them by searching for actual departures/arrivals AND in the online timetable on Lufthansa.com. Just look for departures tomorrow ou
48 OzGlobal : I live in France, don't often fly AF; but since you've chosen to make an issue of it, bring it on. Not sure what it has to do with O'Leary though. Th
49 OzGlobal : Which has nothing to do with the subject under discussion, as these are not O&D, but rather internationally legs, so it supports the HSR argument as
50 OzGlobal : Did you read the Guardian article in first thread post? They cite 80%. Happy for you to take it up with them.
51 RussianJet : But it does have everything to do with the statement that there are no flights between those cities.
52 Cjpark : He is correct about Japan flights have been reduced and the equipment on some routes has been downsized to narrow body aircraft. Seems like Deja Vue
53 Rheinwaldner : Get the big picture. When people claim that HSR did not steal air traffic AT ALL (as happened two times in this thread for the example of Japan) I wo
54 OzGlobal : It's a bit like the challenge of proving to the 'Birthers' that Obama has a birth certificate: they never like the one you show them, but can't tell
55 EI564 : HSR very clearly works. Its just very expensive and takes a long time to build.
56 Eugdog : Whilst I would welcome HSR to the UK I think that $55 billion seems incredibly expensive. That is nearly $1000 per head!!! Some of the cities not serv
57 N1120A : And air travel isn't? Sure, your ticket looks cheap, but just how much do airports cost? How long does it take to get the land and build an airport,
58 NEMA : Agreed, especially that it will not get used by the East side of the UK population, its totally a West side story.
59 PanHAM : The advantage of an airport is, that you can use the same runway to go from that place to anywhere and simply switch destinations. The large airports
60 LTBEWR : Perhaps MOL's anger is more about that HSR is highly subsidised by or owned by national governments where most of the funding is from general taxpayer
61 OzGlobal : Are you sure? I think you'll find that most airports' set up costs were government funded. Then there is ATC and many other layers of air transport i
62 ArniePie : deleted e l e t e d[Edited 2009-08-27 04:54:09]
63 PanHAM : I doubt very much that MOL cares about the tax payers and how their monies are spent. we all know that his business scheme is based on contributing ne
64 OzGlobal : Sources, please. This is not supported by the majority of facts discussed and presented on this thread and elsewhere. Saying it, don't make it so...
65 R2rho : MOL has nothing to worry about. There hasn't been a single ambitious infrastructure project in the UK in the past 30-40 years (except for the Channel
66 Tharanga : Don't let the appearance of private airlines and privately-run airports distract you from the large amounts of government money that go, or have gone
67 BCAL : Reading replies in this thread perhaps reveal some people are unaware of the train network in the UK and the UK Government's transport policy. You can
68 Tharanga : I'll point out one thing - you can't let your own personal situation dictate how you view an entire endeavour. For some people, rail will make sense
69 BCAL : OK, let's rephrase the question to "so for someone who lives in the south east outside the M25 corridor" so it gets the point across as an illustrati
70 Post contains links ArniePie : I deleted my post because I expected it to be questioned as to my sources and because I'm currently working I cannot hover around in this interesting
71 EI564 : But it would be very difficult to go back in history and see what industry got the most government support over the last 60 years. What's important n
72 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : Most of all the fossil fuel prices, that have increased much more than other prices. This is another paper that tries to explain under what condition
73 RussianJet : I had it all along, thank you. I was merely responding to the statement that flights between those towns ceased altogether when in fact they have not
74 ArniePie : " target=_blank>http://florio.economia.unimi.it/Mate...s.pdf I concur that a high oil/gas price is the HSR's best friend for now but it still wont of
75 Tharanga : And if air continued to serve such people better, then those people will fly. But that has little bearing on rail being insane or not. Rail doesn't h
76 Eugdog : I do not quite understand the arguement that air travel is subsidized becasue there is no tax on aviation fuel. How is not being taxed a subsidy? it i
77 AirframeAS : He disapproves because he is deathly afraid of competition?
78 VV701 : Virtually all air traffic between other English airports and, for example, LHR and a significant portion of traffic between EDI and GLA and LHR are e
79 OzGlobal : Why should you be? You're not travelling from London to Paris. Your argument is really that Eurostar is not counting all UK-France traffic. But why s
80 A340Jamaica : How many persons do you realistically think are travelling from Aberdeen via rail to Paris? I bet it is miniscule and has very little effect on that
81 Tharanga : Pretty much by definition, that's a subsidy. If one good or activity is normally taxed, and an exception is made for one particular group, that's a s
82 PanHAM : [ for the simple matter that aviation takes place across borders and would require a supra national taxation in order to be effective, which then woul
83 Shamrock604 : So, MOL is sticking his nose in yet again to surface transport policy. Dont worry, its not just the UK.. he does this here in Ireland too. He is curre
84 R2rho : Except that the electricity doesn't come from renewable sources, and it won't for the next 20 years, which is the minimum time it will take to build
85 OzGlobal : That's right, if you you want to really push the environmental argument for HSR, it works best if the electicity is nuclear generated, as it is in Fr
86 PanHAM : That statement would be correct if the average load factor would be similar to that of aviation. Unfoirtunmately, in most countries it is not even co
87 ArniePie : The day that the HSR can compete on a completely fair base , this means without any substantial government subsidies on a contiuous base, with all oth
88 CARST : That is wrong, it is an argument made by the airline industry a lot of times... The countries build the airports, maintain all the airport and ATC fa
89 Shamrock604 : Not true in many cases. Here in Ireland for example, the airport authorities are run as commercial, for profit entities, and all airport developments
90 ArniePie : Correction, in the free world it is not true in most cases. Eg. Brussels airport is now owned by a Australian group (that's at least last time I hear
91 OzGlobal : I take it you will therefore campaign tirelessly for the shutting down of the American Interstate highway network, the UK Motorway Network, governmen
92 PanHAM : Simply not true. we just see a 7 Billion Euro expansion of FRA airport, totally with private financing. They even build the access roads, which in so
93 Rheinwaldner : The operation of HSR's at least is profitable everywhere, so no, on a contiuous base there are no costs paid by the government (it is very likely eve
94 Tharanga : This is true. I was just saying in general, not paying a tax that would normally be paid is a subsidy. Here, the money is found elsewhere. Exactly. P
95 ArniePie : Talking about comparing apples and oranges. Every single human being benefits from the highway/motorway and all other kind of road system. It is the
96 PanHAM : I gave up on making 10 am appointments at Zaventem and leave my home near FRA at 6 am simply because of road congestion on the last 10 kilometers. Wi
97 ArniePie : Yeah , I know the Swiss system rather well, having worked out of Felben a couple of years myself. It is mainly profitable because it has to do what r
98 CARST : Sorry to say that PanHAM, but you are comparing apples and oranges. There are some airports which can be run by private companies. The big ones with
99 ArniePie : Sorry to say this but you seem very well informed as to how you can benefit personally from this wonderfull HSR system which, I agree, is very conven
100 Tharanga : I find this to be a bizarre sentiment. Airports and railroads serve mainly a purpose for the economy, but roads do not? Huh? The traveling habits of
101 PanHAM : If a county, a city or a state determines that they need an airport as infrastructure to attracht business, they have to foot the bill if the airport
102 Arniepie : Ok than for all those who believe that roads are no different than railroads and waterways. Why is it that only those who make use of all these roads
103 Tharanga : What, exactly, are you trying to say? It is unclear. Are you saying that roads and aviation are not subsidised by the general taxpayer, but rail is,
104 A340Jamaica : Germany already has better than 25,000 MW of wind power installed which amounts to about 7.5% of electricity supply. They are looking to gradually bu
105 A340Jamaica : If we want to talk about subsidies, we cannot ignore the direct and indirect support of Airbus, Boeing, Embraer, Bombardier, Lockheed etc. etc. Aviat
106 N1120A : Don't know. Odd that it isn't on the website. There's the rub actually. The large European airports were and are still paid for by government investm
107 PanHAM : I mentioned befoe that the investment for Munich airport is fully activated in the Munich airport corporation and written down by that corporaqtion T
108 R2rho : Wind power is a great complementary energy source, but it's not the solution to everything. Particularly not for a HSR network which needs a constant
109 A340jamaica : Yes, very much even cars. If you put 4 persons in any average car, it will obliterate any efficiency advantage of air. I know that a mid sized diesel
110 N911YX : This red-neck knows that HSR is not safer nor more environmentally friendly. HSR can't be quick-changed to haul a full load of freight overnight can
111 David_itl : Just to reinforce, VV701's point, the CAA published a report in November 2008 on connecting pax, and the following is an extract (data sourced from t
112 OzGlobal : Go be "offended" if you want, and then do some research to correct your uninformed view of HSR in 2009 in Western Europe. Or even read the thread if
113 A340jamaica : While agreeing that HSR is not really about freight, I bet if we were to do any analysis, you will find that it is every bit as capable of hauling th
114 PanHAM : there is a project for a freight TGV in France and neighoruing countris that speeds overnight parcels. It will replace trucks, vans and flights betwe
115 Signol : What they ought to do is build a spur at the London end (or even a curt through to the Heathrow Express line) from the main LGV north to Heathrow. The
116 Post contains links SpeedyGonzales : All you ever wanted to know about the UK HSR plans: http://lokreport.de/images/galerien/europa/Strategic.pdf
117 Post contains links OzGlobal : Oh yes they can! http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,534978,00.html
118 Post contains links N1120A : Actually, that isn't necessarily true. LAWA "makes money" on its triumvirate of LAX/ONT/VNY (don't count PMD there) but that is because it is essenti
119 JRadier : While one and two might be true (although for example the Schiphol Group is profitable as well, and they don't do their own ground handling) point th
120 PPVRA : I can't blame MOL for opposing this. The US pax rail industry was destroyed by government's subsidizing of interstates. Now people want to re-built ra
121 N1120A : There are shops in US airports, they are just run differently.
122 PPVRA : BAA makes most of it's money from retail because it is not allowed to raise landing fees. It is not allowed to run an airport like a business, just l
123 N1120A : Garbage. They were handed a monopoly and have acted as such. Hardly. BAA has been as guilty as Standard Oil was of anti-competitive behavior.
124 Davehammer : Ferrovial, the current owners paid through the nose for BAA back in 2006. So much so it may bankrupt them. That they have a monopoly and behave as su
125 N1120A : Right, but BAA had been formed long before Ferrovial did that.
126 Bongodog1964 : US airports do have shops, however they tend to be much lower scale than in the UK.
127 N1120A : I know this. Further, the larger percentage of international traffic makes shops more attractive because of duty free pricing.
128 JRadier : Don't get me wrong, I've been to several US airports as well as European airports, so I know the differences. That was my point exactly. European airp
129 N1120A : The point is that they aren't actually better at running airports. They are just good at running shopping malls with a captive audience.
130 JRadier : Keep in mind that a lot of the shops are actually landside, and thus are not Duty-Free, and that duty-free is only to countries outside the EU, as th
131 Bongodog1964 : I have at times subscribed to the view that the "retail experience" is overdone at UK airports. Last week though when departing from the TBIT at LAX,
132 VV701 : Not really a counter argument. If you have read all I said you will have seen it was actually part of my own argument. What I actually said was: I th
133 N1120A : Only sort of. The shops generally try to maintain "duty free pricing" as an advertising gimmick even with EU flights. Different priorities. LAX is ab
134 PPVRA : Like it was said above, BAA Airports Limited paid through their noses for the airports. I am not familiar with the history before Ferrovial purchase
135 A340Jamaica : Nonsense!! Even when ancillary carbon effects are included, the train wins. Believe it or not, a high speed line from say London to Glasgow occupies
136 N1120A : BAA was a private (public) company for 20 years prior to the Ferrovial purchase. What Ferrovial essentially did was take the company private, i.e. pu
137 PanHAM : Handling is run in competetion with others, handling is a part of the business that cintributes to income. No one hinmders airports in the US to do l
138 N1120A : Again, US airports aren't in the ground handling business. They let the airlines or ground handling companies do that themselves. Similarly, they are
139 PanHAM : OK, I know that, what I said is that they give up on potential income from concessions Except for T2, the McDonalds is about the most difficult place
140 Group51 : Yes there is a reason. Although the railway itself may not be profitable, it acts a a multiplier to growth in the rest of the economy. I mean, this i
141 N1120A : Sure, and US airports have duty free shops. The difference is that they aren't mini-shopping malls with jetways attached. Not that I mind shopping at
142 Planesmith : The German train that had the Lufthansa livery was the first HST that I travelled on in Europe many years ago - so much more sensible to get from DUS
143 Post contains links OzGlobal : Restaurants at LHR: T5 (T3 and others also have good options) has the following very good 22 restaurants and bars; I have gone hungry several times r
144 Post contains links VV701 : Thanks for so eloquently proving my point. I said And I was discussing a proposal to build a new high speed railway line between London and central S
145 ArniePie : Don't be so pedantic, besides you contribute to cover the costs for that system (HSR) only partially , that's what this whole argument is about , Usi
146 Bongodog1964 : Yes a railway has a footprint of only 60 feet wide, when it is on level ground, with no roads or rivers crossing it. This situation however is not of
147 N1120A : Actually, that isn't true, unless you are considering land use. Even then, rail doesn't need any more land than building a new highway. In fact, a ma
148 Bongodog1964 : Doesn't LAX count as major then ?
149 N1120A : Of course it does and it is far and away the airport I have the most experience with, since I grew up in and live in Los Angeles. All of the numbered
150 Bongodog1964 : And after security ?
151 PPVRA : Floating ownership interest in the stock market doesn't qualify as a gift either. They have price controls in. That guarantees problems, if anything.
152 N1120A : Again, context. Built before sterile corridors were common here. Of course it does. It gave private airport owners airport infrastructure.
153 PPVRA : It sold them airport infrastructure.
154 N1120A : Not really. It gave BAA the infrastructure free and sold shares in the company. Big difference.
155 Planesmith : Not quite accurate, Britain's private railways, including Virgin, are truly appalling whilst French, Japanese, German, Italian and Swiss railways off
156 Bongodog1964 : Thats no excuse really considering how long they have been up.
157 OzGlobal : Apart from being completely inaccurate with respect to European and Japanese HSR, this statement pretty well describes the US airline industry, which
158 PanHAM : He will not understand that.
159 Vinniewinnie : If u really want to talk about costs, why don't u add all non financial items such as noise, pollution (Emitted by planes, adjacant vehicules togethe
160 N1120A : How often are airports completely rebuilt? Especially on small footprints like LAX? Besides, at least LAX has 4 runways and the space for a 5th, whil
161 Rheinwaldner : The same with taxi, bus transport, road haulage, bicycle couriers or just anything that uses a road to deliver a paid service. None of these pay the
162 Planesmith : Of course, privately run - although the passenger public have not seen any benefit in the move from British Rail so far are fares go - year upon year
163 ArniePie : You sure do over here in the rest of the EU. Roadtransport is more than payed for by roadtaxes, a large portion of your gasbill and on many occasion
164 PanHAM : Huh? If one country is known for extensive use of cars then the US of A. Ever heard of toll bridges, toll roads in the US? But the real point is, abo
165 SKAirbus : Add to that list, being a bit of an idiot... My father used to work at the CAA and to add insult to injury was involved in grounding a number of Ryan
166 ArniePie : PanHam, I clearly stated some US states, not the whole country as states can and do have differing levels of transport taxation. Some states are good
167 Planesmith : Aah! If only that could happen in the UK... Sadly any benefits go straight to the private part of the public/private finance initiatives that are so
168 Theginge : HSR can work in the UK but only as part of an intergrated transport system meaning you can change from train to train to plane to car etc etc seamless
169 A340jamaica : And what is the lifetime period being used for the study? I hope it is measured in at least 100 years!!! That is how long rail infrastructure lasts.
170 PPVRA : So you're saying that the British Airports Authority didn't hold title to the infrastructure, so they were given those titles (still a government age
171 Rheinwaldner : I know these things. But I really meant all of these too with the simple term "taxes". They all qualify to my definition of taxes: "money which is pa
172 ArniePie : I really struggle what you try to prove with this statement? Because you don't get more service , you don't count it as a payement for what you use?
173 Rheinwaldner : I only mentioned road vs. train to support my claim that roads and trains are in the same boat and compete with each other and to support my claim th
174 Orlik : regarding subsidies - I have calculated the only withdrawn consumption tax on petrol in case of one small Airline (in this case CSA) means almost 110
175 PanHAM : now you open another can of worms. Internationbal trade is not only free of VAT but of ALL taxes and there are many good reasons for that. think abou
176 Bongodog1964 : This week I travelled by rail for the first time in many years; if rail is to be the future, lets hope they drastically improve their act: Route trave
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