Porkchop From Canada, joined Jun 2008, 18 posts, RR: 0 Posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7860 times:
Just curious as to what people's opinion would be about Westjet and Air Transat merging to strengthen their individual and (possibly) collective position in the Canadian travel market. With many discussions on Westjet's future plans for expansion, particularly in the longhaul market, focussing on how and when, and with counter arguments being geared around sticking to their relatively simplistic business model and the cost of going longhaul, would it make sense for the two companies to merge and take on Air Canada as a strengthened duo? Is there any possibility of this happening?
Sorry if this has been discussed recently, but the only thread I could find regarding this topic was from 2004.
YULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2115 posts, RR: 6 Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 7637 times:
Not a good idea i would say. I think the operations of each are simpler the way they are than once merged. WJ has (somewhat) frequent scheduled (mostly) domestic service on the busiest routes across the country, while TS has many more routes which they don't necessary run daily, let alone multiple daily, with large aircraft capable of doing long-haul when necessary. Two completely different business models, and merging the two would result in some complex entity and network a-la legacy airline (put AC here).
If it were to merge, WJ could merge with CanJet, and TS with, say, Zoom (if we were more than a year ago, obviously).
Now, the two could always develop partnerships and codeshare, with WJ bringing pax to TS bases to connect internationally.
9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1350 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 7621 times:
Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 2): Now, the two could always develop partnerships and codeshare, with WJ bringing pax to TS bases to connect internationally.
Did they not just recently cancel an agreement with each other where TS wet-leased WS aircraft to operate various charter flights. Seems they are going in the opposite direction. WS has already started an interlining agreement with KL / AF with YVR and YYC as the testing grounds. WS has stated that they will have a lot more in place by year end with various major airlines once their SabreSonic reservations system is up and running. I would think it likely that they will start longhaul codesharing with one of those partners before considering a similar arrangement with TS.
Rikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1470 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 7615 times:
I would liken this to the Canada 3000/Royal/Canjet merger... we all know where that eventually lead. The other great example would be: PWA / CP Air (Canadian Pacific) / Wardair...etc etc
Trying to integrate such different companies and cultures can eventually lead to the demise of the larger entity.
The only thing that would be different in this case, is that financially Westjet and Air Transat are not in anywhere near as bad a financial position as some of the previously mentioned carriers.
Cessna 172; King Air 100; Twin Otter; SAAB 340; Dash 7; Dash 8-100,-200,-300,-400; CRJ-200,700,900; ERJ-170; F-28; DC 9-
Matt From Canada, joined May 1999, 679 posts, RR: 2 Reply 5, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7461 times:
Quoting 9252fly (Reply 3): Did they not just recently cancel an agreement with each other where TS wet-leased WS aircraft to operate various charter flights.
Indeed, yes. They have signed an agreement with CanJet for the next five years. CanJet will be operating a lot of charter flights down south on behalf of Transat Holidays, similiar to what WS had been doing for a few years.
CPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4759 posts, RR: 26 Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7234 times:
Has there been a recent airline merger in Canada that didn't result in disaster?
Canadian - Wardair (Huge debt load, struggled for years before shotgun marriage with AC)
Canadian - AC (AC still running but hardly healthy)
RootsAir - AC (AC shut down all RootsAir services)
Canada 3000 - Royal - CanJet (Only lasted a few months before going out of business entirely)
There would be a major clash of cultures if such a merger ever took place - much more so than in almost any merger I could think of.
YXXMIKE From Canada, joined Apr 2008, 306 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6900 times:
Quoting 9252fly (Reply 3): Did they not just recently cancel an agreement with each other where TS wet-leased WS aircraft to operate various charter flights.
Yes, and this agreement ended on a sour note from what I've heard. Once WS started their vacations division TS got quite upset at them as WS was basically now competing with TS!
Now if AC had money would it make sense for them to pick Porter? Business passengers on business routes flying on new machines? I'm sure Jazz would have something to say, but it could be interesting!
OP3000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1678 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6530 times:
Quoting Porkchop (Thread starter): Just curious as to what people's opinion would be about Westjet and Air Transat merging to strengthen their individual and (possibly) collective position in the Canadian travel market.
A good comparison would be AB and LTU which merged within the past couple of years. Similar case - a low cost carrier and a charter operator. By most accounts it has not been working well as they are two different business models. Recently AB has been considering cancelling the 787 oders it had for the charter operations, which indicates that they intend not to focus on that segment long term.
Robsaw From Canada, joined Dec 2008, 188 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6412 times:
Quoting 9252fly (Reply 3): Did they not just recently cancel an agreement with each other where TS wet-leased WS aircraft to operate various charter flights.
Technically not a wet-lease as it was Transat (the tour operator) simply chartering a Westjet aircraft which flew under Westjet codes. A wet-lease would be if Air Transat (the airline) leased the aircraft (they didn't) and flew under Air Transat codes. Regardless, Westjet Vacations did move into a competitive situation with Transat which Transat probably didn't want to assist with by providing them more business.
Their business models are very different and probably not suitable for a merger. Transat also shares aircraft with other operators depending upon the season and wouldn't bring much to the table as far as where Westjet wants to go as a business. Westjet vacations is a means to utilize additional aircraft capacity for holiday travel when not needed for scheduled op's. Holiday travel is Transat's main market.
CXH From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 141 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6318 times:
Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 6): RootsAir - AC (AC shut down all RootsAir services)
To the best of my knowledge, this didn't occur. In the summer of 2001, Skyservice started a full service airline and licensed the 'Roots' name as its' brand. Skyservice shut it down only six weeks after the first flight when sales didn't meet expectations.
I do recall the Skyservice president at the time (Peyton something?) talking to other airlines including AC, but no deal or buyout was every struck.
I've seen the future, I can't afford it. - Martin Fry
Brilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 3271 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6260 times:
WS should just wait for AC to crap out and then pick up the pieces. AC looks like it is disorganized to the point that every month there is renewed calls for re-nationalizing this flying dinosaur but I think that the open market will eventually force AC to make drastic changes to the behest of its unions and become more like WS. WS doesn't need TS and I don't think that TS needs WS to compete against AC. TS has its own market and is doing just fine with it.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21679 posts, RR: 23 Reply 12, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6246 times:
Quoting Brilondon (Reply 11): WS should just wait for AC to crap out and then pick up the pieces. AC looks like it is disorganized to the point that every month there is renewed calls for re-nationalizing this flying dinosaur but I think that the open market will eventually force AC to make drastic changes
With AC's latest financial restructuring and union/pension concessions etc, plus some signs of an economic upturn soon, I think AC will be around for quite a while. I still consider AC's overall products and service better than most European carriers I fly frequently.
Airman99o From Canada, joined Aug 1999, 969 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6030 times:
Actually, In regards to CXH's post
Ah the RootsAir MESS!! Airline Kept pushing back the original Start up date, Original Plans were to start service a few weeks after the Merger Between AC / CP. But Date pushback kept going till March 2001. Anyway, Canada 3000 Started Sched Service, Introduced Club 3000 Seating, added more Frequency on YYC / YVR route, Roots Flights were near full, taking good few pax away from AC. How things went down in the office behind closed doors only a few will really know. Press Release at the Avitat between Russ Payson ( Skyservice ) Robert Milton. We were to become the LCC of Air Canada, Take the AC Vacations routes. Air Canada really wanted their hands on the FBO, as at the time I do believe United was going that route as well. Air Canada purchased about 31 % of Skyservice at the time, for an undisclosed amount, Rumor has it a good FEW million, Would have been a Great set up, but the Unions at Air Canada, didn't like the Idea of a Non Union doing their flying, Very quietly Air Canada walked away from this deal. Then TANGO was born. If RootsAir Had to be around during the 9/11 Mess. Canada would have lost two airlines in one shot.
Brilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 3271 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6011 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12): With AC's latest financial restructuring and union/pension concessions etc, plus some signs of an economic upturn soon, I think AC will be around for quite a while. I still consider AC's overall products and service better than most European carriers I fly frequently.
I can't say I blame you having experienced the good, the bad and the ugly of traveling around Europe by air recently. Unfortunately if you had experienced what I had experienced that I had on AC you would be grateful for the "European experience" I will never ever fly AC ever again.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12): With AC's latest financial restructuring and union/pension concessions etc, plus some signs of an economic upturn soon, I think AC will be around for quite a while.
That's what they said 5 years ago, and now they're back in the same boat. AC has to make some drastic changes in order to stay afloat and competitive.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
Hawaiian763 From Canada, joined May 2009, 240 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5670 times:
Quoting 9252fly (Reply 1): Listen here Porky,if WS wants to go international,they'll just order the planes from Boeing.
I don't see them buying a different model of plane of Boeing, they have it pretty good right now with an all 737 fleet. If WS wants to go International they will just find another airline to codeshare with, someone like KL or AF.
As for them merging with TS is probably the dumbest move that the two airlines can do, the way work they work together now seems to be working for both of them, so why change all that by merging together?
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21679 posts, RR: 23 Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5499 times:
Quoting Brilondon (Reply 14): Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
With AC's latest financial restructuring and union/pension concessions etc, plus some signs of an economic upturn soon, I think AC will be around for quite a while. I still consider AC's overall products and service better than most European carriers I fly frequently.
I can't say I blame you having experienced the good, the bad and the ugly of traveling around Europe by air recently. Unfortunately if you had experienced what I had experienced that I had on AC you would be grateful for the "European experience" I will never ever fly AC ever again.
I've had good and bad flights on every airline. Perhaps you've just had more bad luck with AC than usual. My last 2 flights on AC were both Rapidair flights YYZ-YUL-YYZ a couple of months ago and I was very impressed at how efficiently the gate staff handled the full loads on both flights (A319 and 763) and the many standbys, and both flights still pushed back on time. Cabin crew (in Y class) were also friendlier than usual on most European carriers. The A319 Y seats (including seatback PTVs which are unheard of within Europe) were also much more comfortable than those on any European carriers I've flown recently.
Canadians have been complaining about AC as long as I can remember, but after living in Europe for 13 years, I don't think most Canadians realize how lucky they are to have an airline with AC's service and operational standards.
CXH From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 141 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5352 times:
Quoting Airman99o (Reply 13): Very quietly Air Canada walked away from this deal. Then TANGO was born. If RootsAir Had to be around during the 9/11 Mess. Canada would have lost two airlines in one shot.
Thanks for the insight, Airman99!
Indeed, I agree, if RootsAir was still operating around 9/11, it would have dragged Skyservice down with it. As it was, ironically, 9/11 helped Skyservice, IIRC. Canada3000 went backrupt in November 2001, so Conquest Vacations and Signature Vacations needed a charter airline quick. Viola! Skyservice stepped in and even began using an aircraft or two leased/bought for RootsAir by Skyservice and also took over the leases for some 319s which were to be leased by C3.
Back on topic: I agree with the majority. WS and TS are different airlines with different sucessful business models. There's no reason for them to merge. They are both doing well independently of it each other.
I've seen the future, I can't afford it. - Martin Fry
9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1350 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4844 times:
Market analysts are mystified by this equity offering in that WS already has USD $700 million in cash on-hand. WS has also recently rescheduled and delayed the delivery of a number of B737NG aircraft so it's hard to say why they need the additional capital. It's my guess that they are starting to feel the effects of recession and realize their expansion plans have been a bit over ambitious. Once the equity offering closes,WS will need to clearly state what they intend to utilize the funds for as it will cause a dilution of the value of current shares. I would not be surprised to see a change in strategy on their part,be it a new aircraft type,acquisition,etc. Speculation now includes PD and TS and other tour companies.
ThegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2278 posts, RR: 3 Reply 23, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4796 times:
All the Mergers in Canada have turned out for the worst except AC& Canadian (arguably) for an airline like Canjet this would be a huge favor
Airman99o From Canada, joined Aug 1999, 969 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4781 times:
Hey CXH
Well with the fall of Canada 3000, Sky had gone from a 3-4 plane operation to a 27 plane operation pretty much over night. As we were partnered with AirTours, and really had no need to have many of the planes brought over for that winter season, many of the 320's were meant to sit for the winter overseas, It was Crazy coming into work. Our check in office used to be above the C gates in T3. Walking in and seeing nothing buy Skyservice tails at each gate was mind blowing. some of the planes operated most of the winter missing coffee makers, ovens, entertainment options and the like. Also we were waiting on the release of 5 320's from the proceedings of Canada 3000. That happend a few days later bringing the fleet to 32. Also there was to be a few of the Ex C3er's to be trained on British reg 757's but we managed to get the 320's so that fell through. Also had the 727 flying around that was for Roots. Also at one point we had 4 319's operating for Conquest Vacations as well as a 330 based out of YYC to do Hawaii runs via Vancouver, then downgraded to a 757 then totally canceled.
I still don't understand how we went from that size of a carrier to what we have become today. Oh wait now who is running the show over here now??? haha. I am hoping he has a few tricks up his sleeve!!
Safety is Everyones Responsibility.
25 9252fly: C6 is strictly a charter operation since dropping out of scheduled services a few years ago. Not sure what it offers WS. This recent equity offering
26 YOWza: That was my thought too, similar destinations and 737 = sense. They seem to be the best fit. PD would be interesting but given that they claim to be
27 CYQL: A merger with Air Transat would give Westjet an instant long haul fleet. They could move the A310 and A330 fleet to scheduled daily ops to AMS, CDG, L
28 LongHauler: And an even greater shift from what made them successful. Clearly, Westjet is no longer modeled after Southwest Airlines. As they get further and fur
29 Goose: It would also give them another corporate culture, operation structure and employees that might not be so easily integrated into WestJet's own. You c
30 Crj 900: Hmmmm Westjet and Porter is more what I see. AC wouldn't pickup Porter, they don't have the money, but Jazz does...hell Jazz could buy AC if they were
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million, Would have been a Great set up, but the Unions at Air Canada, didn't like the Idea of a Non Union doing their flying, Very quietly Air Canada walked away from this deal. Then TANGO was born. If RootsAir Had to be around during the 9/11 Mess. Canada would have lost two airlines in one shot.
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