Brilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 3795 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5063 times:
I would suggest that most of the people traveling to POS are holiday types that would not pay for premium fares. Air Transat, Sunquest, Sunwing et al are probably doing fine handling the traffic heading to POS along with Caribbean.
Quoting Brilondon (Reply 2): I would suggest that most of the people traveling to POS are holiday types that would not pay for premium fares. Air Transat, Sunquest, Sunwing et al are probably doing fine handling the traffic heading to POS along with Caribbean.
No, there is significant business pax from POS-YYZ due to the financial sector in Trinidad and the relationships with the Banks, basically AC was not fulling the back of the planes since many of the pax choose the charter competition at those times; Zoom, Air Transat and Skyservice, AC and BWIA had the business pax, and as such AC was in direct competition with Caribbean Airlines who had 14w compared to their 3 weekly. Passengers never like the idea of traveling to CCS from YYZ, more so the business pax, AC lost out and never recovered the following they had in the past.
BA84 From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 393 posts, RR: 3 Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4839 times:
Thank you everyone, for the explanations.
Caribbean certainly is competitive, and they are the home team.
It seems AC was complacent, and let the business slip away.
Is Trinidad considered a "sun" destination?
SurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2738 posts, RR: 31 Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4768 times:
Quoting BA84 (Reply 4): Is Trinidad considered a "sun" destination?
Not in the least! Trinidad is a business hub and VFR city, which makes it attractive to airlines, but unpopular with leisure travelers that fill flight after flight to NAS, MBJ, SXM, etc. Generally, the ethnic traffic opts for the national airline (in this case, Caribbean Airlines) over the foreign carrier such as AC or an American airline. Now, Tobago actually is a "sun" destination, and it is often reached via POS, actually. But, I imagine that market is quite small.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
LongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4558 posts, RR: 36 Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4593 times:
Quoting BA84 (Thread starter): This was a legacy route, via Bermuda, Antigua, Barbados, to Trinidad using DC-8's.
DC-4M North Stars, L1049 Super Connies and Vanguards before that!
The big problem now is that AC does not have the proper aircraft. The A319 was too small for a low yield market like that. The A320 would be better sized, but does not have the range. The 767-300 is too large.
The B737NGs used by Caribbean Airlines make much more sense.
Whenever a route is canceled like POS, it is not just "is the flight making money?" ... sometimes the decision is more "can we make more money with this aircraft somewhere else?" The latter may be your answer with regard to POS.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
BA84 From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 393 posts, RR: 3 Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4480 times:
LongHauler, thanks for your insider views.
I remember the Vanguards when I lived in BDA as a kid.
There are always good reasons when a route is cancelled,
though they may not be apparent to the flying public.
Trintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3211 posts, RR: 4 Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4418 times:
POS was indeed a destination for AC and its predecessor Trans Canadian since 1948. The YYZ - POS route is very heavy with VFR and business passengers but is not a leisure route as such. AC held its own against BW for many years but the rise of the charters in the '90s undid AC badly - Air Transat and SkyService being the leading operators to POS though Canada 3000 came occasionally too. As AC receded from using 767s to POS to the A320 (yes those were uesd to POS around the nid '90s) and latterly the A319, BW strengthened its hold on the market, perhaps helped by its introduction of the new 737-800s.
The final straw appeared to be the takeover of RBTT Bank by RBC last year. Canadian banks have tended to be very loyal to AC for their travel needs but RBTT had a strong relationship with BW, both old and new (i.e. Caribbean Airlines). One of the conditions of the takeover was that BW continued to be the preferred carrier for the new entity. It was shortly after this was announced that AC decided to withdraw from POS - it last flew there in August 2008.
About TAB, AC never flew its own planes there but at one time it was possible to get an AC ticket to TAB with a flight to BGI and a LI connection.
Oh, and they share POS as international airport..........
Most international pax traveling to TAB usually transit via POS since POS is the first point of entry into the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago and the fact that Caribbean Airlines operates up to 24 daily flights between the two islands. However, the Tobago Crown Point International Airport does have international flights year-round. BA operates LGW-ANU-TAB 2x weekly with the B772. Monarch operates LGW-TAB twice weekly as well. VS operates LGW-TAB-GND weekly with the B744. Condor will soon operate both FRA-BGI-TAB and FRA-TAB-PMV weekly with the B763. DL operates a weekly B738 service into TAB from ATL. The regional airline LIAT also operates nonstop flights between TAB and both BGI and GND.
Trintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3211 posts, RR: 4 Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4136 times:
To add to your excellent points SCL767, in fact both Trinidad and Tobago share both airports! TAB's UK services are heavily used by Trinidadians coming home or going over - in many instances flying from TAB is cheaper than from POS. I myself have just flown from TAB back to LGW - a trip report will follow soon. I remember reading on this forum some time ago that TAB at one point had over 66000 transit passengers in one year - many of those were off those long haul flights headed to POS (and also some went to BGI and GND on LI). Once my brother went to TAB to get a connection to BGI for Crop Over because all the flights from POS were fully booked.
BWIA330 From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 919 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3990 times:
Here are past and current operators on the YYZ-POS route
Caribbean Airlines- 737-800
Air Canada-767-200, 747, L-1011, A319, A320
Royal Airlines-L-1011, 727
Canada 3000-A330-200, 757, A320
Skyservice Airlines- A320, A330-300, 757
Air Transat- L-1011, 757, A310, A330-200/A330-300 (Returning to POS as of December 9th 2009 with the A310)
Trintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3211 posts, RR: 4 Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3845 times:
BWIA330, to add to your list, AC used the DC-8-63 to POS prior to using the other jets you listed. I do not know the prop types they used before the jets came aboard though I think that they used the Vickers Vanguard at one point.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 23169 posts, RR: 23 Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3776 times:
Quoting Trintocan (Reply 17): BWIA330, to add to your list, AC used the DC-8-63 to POS prior to using the other jets you listed. I do not know the prop types they used before the jets came aboard though I think that they used the Vickers Vanguard at one point.
AC, under both their current and former name,Trans-Canada Air Lines, has used almost every type in their fleet to POS except the Vickers Viscount, DC-9 and earlier twin-piston types like the DC-3.
Service started in the late 1940s with the Canadair DC-4M North Star. The L1049 Super Constellation was also used in the mid to late 1950s, followed by the DC-8-40/50/61/63, Vickers Vanguard, and all the other types mentioned. When YYZ-POS service started, elapsed time on a North Star was 13 hr. 25 min. with 2 stops at Bermuda and Barbados.