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Why Did Air Canada Stop Service To POS?  
User currently offlineBA84 From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 418 posts, RR: 3
Posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6157 times:
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Any AC insiders know the reasons?
Competition from Caribbean?
This was a legacy route, via Bermuda, Antigua, Barbados, to Trinidad using DC-8's.

BA84

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2447 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6052 times:

In a nutshell

Quoting BA84 (Thread starter):
Competition from Caribbean?




Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently offlineBrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4188 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5983 times:

I would suggest that most of the people traveling to POS are holiday types that would not pay for premium fares. Air Transat, Sunquest, Sunwing et al are probably doing fine handling the traffic heading to POS along with Caribbean.


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineCaribbean484 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Jan 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5951 times:



Quoting BA84 (Thread starter):
This was a legacy route, via Bermuda, Antigua, Barbados, to Trinidad using DC-8's.

Yes AC had a long prosperous history in POS and one of the longest serving airline to that Airport, They also has their L1011s maintained by BWIA in the past, so why they left:

Quoting BA84 (Thread starter):
Competition from Caribbean?



Quoting Brilondon (Reply 2):
I would suggest that most of the people traveling to POS are holiday types that would not pay for premium fares. Air Transat, Sunquest, Sunwing et al are probably doing fine handling the traffic heading to POS along with Caribbean.

No, there is significant business pax from POS-YYZ due to the financial sector in Trinidad and the relationships with the Banks, basically AC was not fulling the back of the planes since many of the pax choose the charter competition at those times; Zoom, Air Transat and Skyservice, AC and BWIA had the business pax, and as such AC was in direct competition with Caribbean Airlines who had 14w compared to their 3 weekly. Passengers never like the idea of traveling to CCS from YYZ, more so the business pax, AC lost out and never recovered the following they had in the past.



All ah we is one family
User currently offlineBA84 From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 418 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5759 times:
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Thank you everyone, for the explanations.
Caribbean certainly is competitive, and they are the home team.
It seems AC was complacent, and let the business slip away.
Is Trinidad considered a "sun" destination?

BA84


User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2862 posts, RR: 30
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5688 times:



Quoting BA84 (Reply 4):
Is Trinidad considered a "sun" destination?

Not in the least! Trinidad is a business hub and VFR city, which makes it attractive to airlines, but unpopular with leisure travelers that fill flight after flight to NAS, MBJ, SXM, etc. Generally, the ethnic traffic opts for the national airline (in this case, Caribbean Airlines) over the foreign carrier such as AC or an American airline. Now, Tobago actually is a "sun" destination, and it is often reached via POS, actually. But, I imagine that market is quite small.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4923 posts, RR: 43
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5513 times:



Quoting BA84 (Thread starter):
This was a legacy route, via Bermuda, Antigua, Barbados, to Trinidad using DC-8's.

and ...

DC-4M North Stars, L1049 Super Connies and Vanguards before that!

The big problem now is that AC does not have the proper aircraft. The A319 was too small for a low yield market like that. The A320 would be better sized, but does not have the range. The 767-300 is too large.

The B737NGs used by Caribbean Airlines make much more sense.

Whenever a route is canceled like POS, it is not just "is the flight making money?" ... sometimes the decision is more "can we make more money with this aircraft somewhere else?" The latter may be your answer with regard to POS.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineBA84 From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 418 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5400 times:
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LongHauler, thanks for your insider views.
I remember the Vanguards when I lived in BDA as a kid.
There are always good reasons when a route is cancelled,
though they may not be apparent to the flying public.

BA84


User currently offlineTrintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3237 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5338 times:

POS was indeed a destination for AC and its predecessor Trans Canadian since 1948. The YYZ - POS route is very heavy with VFR and business passengers but is not a leisure route as such. AC held its own against BW for many years but the rise of the charters in the '90s undid AC badly - Air Transat and SkyService being the leading operators to POS though Canada 3000 came occasionally too. As AC receded from using 767s to POS to the A320 (yes those were uesd to POS around the nid '90s) and latterly the A319, BW strengthened its hold on the market, perhaps helped by its introduction of the new 737-800s.

The final straw appeared to be the takeover of RBTT Bank by RBC last year. Canadian banks have tended to be very loyal to AC for their travel needs but RBTT had a strong relationship with BW, both old and new (i.e. Caribbean Airlines). One of the conditions of the takeover was that BW continued to be the preferred carrier for the new entity. It was shortly after this was announced that AC decided to withdraw from POS - it last flew there in August 2008.

About TAB, AC never flew its own planes there but at one time it was possible to get an AC ticket to TAB with a flight to BGI and a LI connection.

TrinToCan.



Hop to it, fly for life!
User currently offlineBrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4188 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5265 times:



Quoting Trintocan (Reply 8):
Trans Canadian since

It was Trans Canada. There has never been a Trans Canadian.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineTrintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3237 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5198 times:

BriLondon, that was my bad. Thanks for the correction. Trans Canada indeed.

TrinToCan.



Hop to it, fly for life!
User currently offlineEcuadorianMD11 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5189 times:



Quoting BA84 (Reply 4):
Is Trinidad considered a "sun" destination?

Trinidad not so much, but Tobago yes, very much so.

Oh, and they share POS as international airport..........

Ecuadorian MD11.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8801 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5158 times:
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Quoting EcuadorianMD11 (Reply 11):
Trinidad not so much, but Tobago yes, very much so.

Oh, and they share POS as international airport..........

Most international pax traveling to TAB usually transit via POS since POS is the first point of entry into the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago and the fact that Caribbean Airlines operates up to 24 daily flights between the two islands. However, the Tobago Crown Point International Airport does have international flights year-round. BA operates LGW-ANU-TAB 2x weekly with the B772. Monarch operates LGW-TAB twice weekly as well. VS operates LGW-TAB-GND weekly with the B744. Condor will soon operate both FRA-BGI-TAB and FRA-TAB-PMV weekly with the B763. DL operates a weekly B738 service into TAB from ATL. The regional airline LIAT also operates nonstop flights between TAB and both BGI and GND.


User currently offlineTrintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3237 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5056 times:

To add to your excellent points SCL767, in fact both Trinidad and Tobago share both airports! TAB's UK services are heavily used by Trinidadians coming home or going over - in many instances flying from TAB is cheaper than from POS. I myself have just flown from TAB back to LGW - a trip report will follow soon. I remember reading on this forum some time ago that TAB at one point had over 66000 transit passengers in one year - many of those were off those long haul flights headed to POS (and also some went to BGI and GND on LI). Once my brother went to TAB to get a connection to BGI for Crop Over because all the flights from POS were fully booked.

TrinToCan.



Hop to it, fly for life!
User currently offlineBWIA330 From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 919 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4910 times:

Here are past and current operators on the YYZ-POS route

BWIA- 707,L-1011,MD-83
Caribbean Airlines- 737-800
Air Canada-767-200, 747, L-1011, A319, A320
Rich International-L-1011
Royal Airlines-L-1011, 727
Canada 3000-A330-200, 757, A320
Skyservice Airlines- A320, A330-300, 757
Air Transat- L-1011, 757, A310, A330-200/A330-300 (Returning to POS as of December 9th 2009 with the A310)


User currently offlineFly2YYZ From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 1040 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4860 times:



Quoting BWIA330 (Reply 14):
Here are past and current operators on the YYZ-POS route

Don't forget :

Zoom Airlines 767-300/757-200


User currently offlineBWIA330 From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 919 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4818 times:

Thanks Fly2YYZ,

I cant believe I totally forgot about Zoom lol, and I flew with them to POS many times.

Regards

BWIA330


User currently offlineTrintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3237 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4765 times:

BWIA330, to add to your list, AC used the DC-8-63 to POS prior to using the other jets you listed. I do not know the prop types they used before the jets came aboard though I think that they used the Vickers Vanguard at one point.

TrinToCan.



Hop to it, fly for life!
User currently offlineInbound From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Sep 2001, 851 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4729 times:

Actually if I'm not mistaken, AC said that from time to time they would reassess the route and consider restarting it if needed.

So who knows, maybe it's not the end of AC at POS.



Maintain own separation with terrain!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25106 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4696 times:



Quoting Trintocan (Reply 17):
BWIA330, to add to your list, AC used the DC-8-63 to POS prior to using the other jets you listed. I do not know the prop types they used before the jets came aboard though I think that they used the Vickers Vanguard at one point.



Quoting BWIA330 (Reply 14):
Air Canada-767-200, 747, L-1011, A319, A320

AC, under both their current and former name,Trans-Canada Air Lines, has used almost every type in their fleet to POS except the Vickers Viscount, DC-9 and earlier twin-piston types like the DC-3.

Service started in the late 1940s with the Canadair DC-4M North Star. The L1049 Super Constellation was also used in the mid to late 1950s, followed by the DC-8-40/50/61/63, Vickers Vanguard, and all the other types mentioned. When YYZ-POS service started, elapsed time on a North Star was 13 hr. 25 min. with 2 stops at Bermuda and Barbados.


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