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United's L-1011 Fleet  
User currently offlineFxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7361 posts, RR: 85
Posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 23392 times:
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Where did UA fly their L-1011 and why such a short life at the airline before DL got them?



98 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 23256 times:

I am pretty sure I flew one out of Denver to LAX in the mid to late 80s, I was very young though, it could have been a DC-10

User currently offlineGALLEYSTEW From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 23155 times:

UAL got the L-1011-500 from the PAC DAY acquisition. It was part of the deal with PAN AM. A total of 6 aircraft that flew to Asia, though they might have been used on other routes. A great plane, but with so few a number, there was no reason to keep them. I know they went to DAL, and I think it was a trade for the DC-10's they aquired from WESTERN.


All Posts are my opinions only.
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8500 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 23154 times:
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United got them in the Pan AM Asia deal and needed them to operate smaller routes like SFO to Osaka. UA got 6 from Pan AM.

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15832 posts, RR: 27
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 23113 times:

I remember reading something like the businesspeople at UA wanted the DC-10 and the MX people wanted L-1011s so they compromised. I don't know how much truth there is to this, but I bet if it's true, it would never happen today.


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineGALLEYSTEW From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 23073 times:

In 1970+ UAL could have ordered either the DC-10 or the L-1011. MX thought the L-1011 technically better from what I have read, but if the DC-10 wasn't made, McDonnell Douglas would have gone out of business/purchased earlier. In spite of its short comings, the DC-10 was a good bird. The L-1011, for all of its elegance and superior engineering, was costly to maintain.


All Posts are my opinions only.
User currently offlineGALLEYSTEW From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 23061 times:

And...... I think the $$$ of the RB-211's and the fact MD was selling the DC-10's for less made a difference!!!!


All Posts are my opinions only.
User currently offlineSeptember11 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3623 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 22955 times:

just three more pictures of UA L-1011


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Roland Herzog
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Tadashi Matsuura




View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Takashi Takahashi




Delta, Eastern, and United are the only US major airlines that had L-1011s and DC-10s?



Airliners.net of the Future
User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2607 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 22869 times:



Quoting September11 (Reply 7):
Delta, Eastern, and United are the only US major airlines that had L-1011s and DC-10s?

TWA flew a sizable fleet as well

Quoting GALLEYSTEW (Reply 5):
the DC-10 was a good bird

Indeed - I flew more trips on UA's DC-10's than any other aircraft during the 80's and early 90's. I was a frequent flier on ORD/SEA/ORD and the vast majority of those trips were DC10's. Always enjoyed that aircraft. Of course, the few trips I took on EA L1011's were pleasant as well


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 22870 times:



Quoting September11 (Reply 7):
Delta, Eastern, and United are the only US major airlines that had L-1011s and DC-10s?

Also Pan Am. In addition to their 12 factory-delivered L1011-500s, they also inherited 11 DC-10-10s and 5 DC-10-30s when they bought National.

Hawaiian also operated both the L1011 and DC-10 but I don't believe they were operated simultaneously except probably for a short overlap period while the 9 ex-AA DC-10-10s were replacing a slightly smaller number of L1011s which were mostly ex-NH.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 22857 times:

I flew on one of these across the Pacific from PDX after it was transferred to DL. It was a fine airplane but I will never forget the FA announcement after the safety video that, "Please note that the seat cushions ON THIS AIRCRAFT cannot be used for flotation devices." Apparently floating seat cushions (like gasper vents) was an option (there was still a life vest at every seat) and PA chose not to exercise that option while most original order DL aircraft including their own L1011s had them.

You gotta wonder if some of those people at UAL who weren't as excited about the D10 compared to the L10 from a technical perspective were exonerated after the SUX crash.


User currently offlineSeptember11 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3623 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 22857 times:

Quoting ER757 (Reply 8):
TWA flew a sizable fleet as well

TWA did not have the opportunity to operate DC-10.

United did operate DC-10 and L-1011. Eastern did operate DC-10 and L-1011. And Delta did operate DC-10 and L-1011.

  

thank you Viscount724. United, Eastern, Delta, Pan Am, and Hawaiian..

[Edited 2009-08-27 13:02:44]

[Edited 2009-08-27 13:20:44]


Airliners.net of the Future
User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2607 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 22798 times:



Quoting September11 (Reply 11):
Quoting ER757 (Reply 8):
TWA flew a sizable fleet as well

TWA did not have the opportunity to operate DC-10.

My TWA comment was in regard to the L1011, not the DC10. Was answering your inquiry about the major US carriers that operated it. Then I got off on a rant about how I liked UA's DC-10's, so I'm sorry I wandered O.T. a bit and added some confusion into my reply.

Kudos to Viscount724 for remembering HA as an L1011 operator. For as many times as I saw them at both HNL and SEA, you'd think I'd have remembered. Oh well, the effects of age are sinking in  old 


User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5209 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 22796 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10):
You gotta wonder if some of those people at UAL who weren't as excited about the D10 compared to the L10 from a technical perspective were exonerated after the SUX crash.

I'd say quite the contrary...if the aircraft were an L1011 involved in UA232 and the exact same circumstances occurred the L1011 would not have lost all hydraulics. The DC10 has 3 hydraulic systems whereas the L10 has four; this was one of the areas that the L10 was arguably better and 'more advanced' than the DC10. I'm sure others more knowledgeable on the matter can go into further details though.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7361 posts, RR: 85
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 22588 times:
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Was there a tech stop for UA and the L-1011 to Asia? I was unable to locate a time table for the routes in the past threads. Strange there is only a handful of photos in the Anet database. One of the best liverys for the L-1011.  airplane 

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 22562 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10):
I flew on one of these across the Pacific from PDX after it was transferred to DL. It was a fine airplane

Unless UA made significant interior changes which I doubt, Pan Am's L1011-500s had an unattractive Y class product with cramped charter-type 10-abreast seating, while all their major U.S. competitors using the L1011 and DC-10 had the more usual 9-abreast layout (which had been 8-abreast during their first few years of service in the 1970s).


User currently offlineJrmsp From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 22529 times:

I seem to recall PS operated at least one for awhile as well. BIG grin.

User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 22477 times:



Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 13):
if the aircraft were an L1011 involved in UA232 and the exact same circumstances occurred the L1011 would not have lost all hydraulics.

that's my point. More significantly, the routing of the 4 systems on the L10 were not in the same location; part of the reason for SUX was because the routing of the 3 hydraulic lines was all int he same area so a catastrophic failure took out all systems anyway. That might not have happened on an L10.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15):
Pan Am's L1011-500s had an unattractive Y class product with cramped charter-type 10-abreast seating

I flew in one of the forward cabins... but I think these a/c for DL had 9 abreast seating in back..not sure though.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 22427 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 17):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15):
Pan Am's L1011-500s had an unattractive Y class product with cramped charter-type 10-abreast seating

I flew in one of the forward cabins... but I think these a/c for DL had 9 abreast seating in back..not sure though.

Yes, DL's L1011s began life as 8-abreast and were then changed to 9-abreast (2-5-2) like almost all major scheduled-carrier L1011s and DC-10s with rare exceptions like Pan Am's 10-abreast layout.

BA's early L1011s used within Europe in the 1970s/80s were also 10-abreast but their L1011-500s operated rather briefly on longhaul routes (before being sold to the RAF) were 9-abreast.


User currently offlineGALLEYSTEW From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 22298 times:

UAL's were nine abreast. 2-5-2


All Posts are my opinions only.
User currently offlineGALLEYSTEW From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 22273 times:

AND it was very pretty in the CALIFORNIA SUNSET COLORS. Orange, to Red, to Blue. Look at a Sunset sometime. That is where those colors came from.


All Posts are my opinions only.
User currently offlineJc2354 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 589 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 22226 times:

Weren't these airplanes in pretty bad condition and neglected before United got them?

No source, but it was always the rumors I had heard.

Jack



If not now, then when?
User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1619 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 22212 times:



Quoting September11 (Reply 7):
Delta, Eastern, and United are the only US major airlines that had L-1011s and DC-10s?

So soon we forget TZ.

TZ had the largest fleet of L-1011s in the world in 2002, was a major airline and had both aircraft at one point.

M


User currently offlineDeltaCTO From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 22155 times:

Pan Am's L1011-500's were configured 3x4x3.
UA kept the same configuration ... before selling them to DL

http://www.pbase.com/jseiple2/image/22783335


DL flew them PDX-SEL-TPE-BKK and LAX-ANC-HKG

Once the MD-11's were deployed transpacific, these L10's were reconfigured 2x5x2 for transatlantic routes.


User currently offlineSparky35805 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 22106 times:
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British Airways operated both 1011s and DC10s.The DC10s came with the BCAL merger.
Sparky


25 FLFlyGuy : What you say is entirely true. On the other hand, had an L1011 suffered an uncontained engine failure on the #2 engine (which is what happened to UA2
26 DL_mech : DL flew these until '92 or '93 with 3-4-3 in Y. The configuration was changed to 2-5-2 when the planes were pulled off of the Pacific routes and C cl
27 DeltaCTO : Absolutely correct. DL referred to these L-1011-500's as L16's with the 3x4x3 configuration in Y After they were reconfigured for Transatlantic - 2x5
28 Caljn : I've read over the years the L1011 was a pilots favorite aircraft to fly. Can't articulate why as I, regrettably, don't fly commercial jets. Just wond
29 Max Q : Funny you should mention that : In 1981, an Eastern Airlines L-1011 (also a 3-engine airliner) suffered a similar kind of massive failure of its numb
30 Joemac547 : I believe PSA ordered two, but only took possession of one. She was nicknamed "Mother Grinning Bird" It was just the wrong plane to try on the SFO-LA
31 76794p : My parents fly on one on their honeymoon back in 1986 from ORD-OGG
32 Brilondon : I think that if the problems with RR did not exist, that the L1011 would have been a bigger success.
33 Desertflyer : Well I think we need to get L1011 lovers from around the world and charter one of the last birds for a joyride. Such a great bird, I'm quite sad I nev
34 FX1816 : I believe that they actually ordered something like 4 or 6 but only took delivery of 2 but I could be wrong. FX1816
35 Tiger119 : - TZ had L1011s and a single DC10. The DC10 burned up on the ground at ORD. TZ kept the L1011s flying and at the end they had some used DC10s from NW
36 Malaysia : Technically behind you
37 LACA773 : Did the L15s have the galley below deck like the larger L10/L11/L12 had? I liked how they had the visible galley down down in the cargo hold area. I'v
38 Post contains links Bohica : PSA ordered 5 and took delivery of two. http://www.psa-history.org/hangar/l10.php
39 ETA Unknown : I believe the Pan Am birds had the galley upstairs. I remember this as my economy class JFK-GIG flight in August 1984 operated with a reduced crew exe
40 TZTriStar500 : Actually TZ had two DC-10s, a -10 (N183AT) and a -40 (N184AT) in the early to mid '80's. The -40 burned up at ORD in '86 and the -10 was gotten rid o
41 N318EA : It was a EWR to SJU flight that had the failure. The #2 engine area looked like a missile strike. The pilots had a surge or increase in vibration amp
42 DC10Widebody : It almost pains me to look at those colors sometimes, it reminds me of all the fantastic flights I took with them in the 80's and 90's DC10's from SEA
43 ER757 : I was working at ORD at the time and remember seeing the fire crews still attending to the last of the fire when I was on my way in that morning - I
44 Shankly : Had the pleasure of speaking to a retired BA L1011 Captain a few years ago, who adored the L1011. He recalled having to secure an FAA license so he c
45 474218 : No. Correct The Pan Am/United TriStars had four lavs in the middle of the aft cabin, inlieu of the five lavs in a semi-circle forward of the aft pres
46 Post contains links N702ML : Here is some info I can provide on routes flown: Effective September 3, 1986: Beijing-Shanghai Beijing-Tokyo Manila-Osaka Manila-Seoul Manila-Tokyo Os
47 Post contains links Trijetsrmissed : As a sidenote, I believe the last DC-10 was delivered new to Pan Am, as the merger was already underway. FLYFlyGuy, as has been said, please read up
48 Post contains images Viscount724 : Right, the one below, delivered new to PA August 1980 with the National registration N84NA. Sold to UA April 1985. Scrapped at LAS 2004.
49 474218 : There was nothing "unique" about the RR engines the L-1011. Except for external parts they were the same RR engine used on many 747's.
50 LACA773 : Are there any airline fleet list website for past and present airlines?
51 TrijetsRMissed : Understood, but didn't they debut on the L-1011 first? Either way, of the Tristar, the RRs are quick to be noted by enthusiasts and professionals ali
52 N1120A : You two said the same thing. 2, and they actually used the lower deck lounge. The fuel crisis killed the L1011's operation at PS, but the CASM really
53 LAXintl : Lot more then fuel. The L-1011 did not fit in well with PSA quick turn modus-operendi, plus it was hard to fill outside of the morning and evening ru
54 N1120A : I am sure they could have come up with a creative solution allowing quicker turns. The Japanese turn 744Ds in 20-30 minutes, so it can be done. I can
55 Post contains images 474218 : Turnarounds should not have been a problem as the TriStars was designed with 20 minute in-route turnarounds.
56 B595 : Hmm....that graphic allows 3 minutes for passenger/baggage unloading. That seems a bit optimistic to me. How do you get 200+ passengers unloaded in 3
57 TymnBalewne : AK-47's
58 474218 : That chart was product in the early 1970's. Standard L-1011 seating at the time chart was written was 273. As stated only half the passengers would d
59 B595 : Men in black suits will be showing up at your door in 3, 2, 1.... Bugger, I didn't read the fine print. I wonder what PSA's actual turn-around times
60 N318EA : NYC to Florida throw decks of cards out the door! EAL in 1977 was 28/245
61 474218 : You remember correctly: 28 First Class, 6 abreast and 40 inch pitch. 245 in Coach, 8 abreast and 34 inch pitch.
62 Drerx7 : Initially WT had used the word 'exonerated' - but yes now were are singing the same song.
63 GriffAir : ...and some of the other differences have been noted above. As an aside, the PAA/UAL L10's that went to Delta were internally (and unofficially) refe
64 FlyCaledonian : Wasn't the TriStar 250 comparable to the DC-10-30 performance and capacity wise? I guess it came along too late, with DL taking the only new examples,
65 AvConsultant : Blow the slides, should do in 90 seconds.
66 N1120A : Was actually bigger than the DC-10, and it was a readily available, easily done and relatively cheap conversion to do. Remember that all versions of
67 474218 : There were no factory built L-1011-250's. Delta converted six (6) L-1011-1's to the -250 configuration with kits supplied by Lockheed. The DC-10-10's
68 Viscount724 : The L-1011-500 was about 17 feet shorter than the DC-10, not 6 feet (164 ft. compared to 181 ft.). That made it much less economic due both to reduce
69 474218 : The L-1011-500 was not built to compete with the DC-10-30, it was built to replace the 707 and DC-8 on long thin routes.
70 N1120A : I was reading a bad chart, sorry about that. That said, the L15 was not nearly as inefficient as most shrinks Different aircraft and different market
71 Viscount724 : From my recollection, the L15 was also built to provide an L1011 that was more competitive with the DC-10's range, especially for carriers like DL al
72 Max Q : N1120A, I am a huge fan of the L1011 myself, I think it is one of the best engineered Widebody Transports ever made, light years ahead of the tragical
73 Drerx7 : 8 were built? Are you talking about the DC-10-15? There were ALOT of DC-10-30s built. I think the last one went off the line in the late 80s or somet
74 Viscount724 : DC-10-30 production totalled 206, not 8. The 42 DC-10-40s built for NW and JL should also be added as they were essentially DC-10-30s with P&W engine
75 N1120A : I'm sorry, I left something off. The DC-10-30ER, which competed with the L15 on range.
76 Post contains links 474218 : Suggest reading the following: http://www.icao.int/icao/en/ro/allpirg/allpirg4/wp28app.pdf Seems the L-1011-500 is much cheaper to operated than the
77 N1120A : Smaller plane though. Also, those old charts are notoriously bad.
78 LAXintl : They also did DUS-LAX nonstops into the early/mid 90s prior to switch to MD-11 and 763s.
79 Viscount724 : And how many L-1011-500s were still in scheduled passenger service in 2000, the date on that chart? I believe very few. If the data includes VIP airc
80 474218 : It was a small plane because it was built for a different market. If you have some proof that the DC-10's were cheaper to operate show it. Until then
81 TrijetsRMissed : That is correct. Yet the fleet was sold to the RAF within a few years, and the inherited DC-10-30s were kept in the fleet well into the late 90s... F
82 Max Q : That route did not exist when BA operated the L1011.
83 FlyCaledonian : Didn't BA operate the TriStar 500 on LHR-YYC and LHR-MSY-MEX? As BA's TriStar 200s were delivered in the early 1980s I've wondered why they didn't upg
84 Viscount724 : BA used the L-1011-500 on their LHR-YVR/YYC/YEG routes when they finally got rights to western Canada about 1980 or so. Initially I think it was arou
85 474218 : BA went in another direction and converted their -200's, along with the two (2) British Air Tours -200's to the "Sunset Set Three" configuration. The
86 411A : I have to laugh when some folks contend that 474218 is simply incorrect with regard to the L1011. Let's see...he was associated with the program at Lo
87 WorldTraveler : The L10 was clearly hurt by the delays due to RR's financial problems. The L10/D10 saga also made it SOP at manufacturers of large aircraft not to tr
88 LY777 : Interesting, I didn't even know that UA flew the L1011...
89 Post contains links DeltaCTO : http://www.geocities.com/~aeromoe/fleets/
90 474218 : 411A, thanks for the kind words. While I was always on the maintenance side of L-1011, I always respect your inputs on the operational side. However,
91 Viscount724 : " target=_blank>http://www.geocities.com/~aeromoe/fleets/ That's a good site for historic fleet info, although it only covers U.S. carriers, but it's
92 TrijetsRMissed : What about routes of that length? Both could fly long haul but the DC-10 could carry more payload. 4114A and 474218, the L-1011 is loved by many, and
93 B595 : Taking this statement for granted, why did Lockheed not produce an upgraded L1011 that could match the DC10-30 in terms of payload/range? Was there a
94 NorthStarDC4M : There was an L1011 design, the L1011-8, that would of been competitive with the Dc-10-30 in almost every way (size, range, payload). It would of even
95 474218 : I realize both of you were very young (or not even born) in the early 1970's, but there was that Rolls Royce bankruptcy thing that set the L-1011 pro
96 B595 : Interesting, thanks 474218. So Lockheed's choice not to produce a DC10-30 counterpart was due to financial straits. I found this short entry on the L
97 LACA773 : I believe some of the D15s were built for MX as they flew a small fleet for a period of time. " target=_blank>http://www.geocities.com/~aeromoe/fleet
98 Post contains links Viscount724 : There are quite a few such websites, some better than others. Here are a few: http://airfleets.net/home/ http://www.planespotters.net/ (click "Data C
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