Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
AC To Launch YUL/YYZ-ATH & BCN For SUmmer 2010  
User currently offlineFlyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4970 posts, RR: 51
Posted (4 years 11 months 8 hours ago) and read 9840 times:

Terrific news.. Olympic is pulling out of Canada, and Barcelona is growing significantly in popularity with Canadian travellers.

http://micro.newswire.ca/release.cgi...ey=1708288335&view=13213-0&Start=0

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2844 posts, RR: 30
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 8 hours ago) and read 9801 times:



Quoting Flyyul (Thread starter):
Olympic is pulling out of Canada

No real surprise there. Gone are the iconic days of every single European country operating its own distinctive long-haul airline. The flag carriers of Belgium, the Czech Republic, and Hungary have already completely eliminated their loss-making prestige routes to New York, Toronto, etc. and so too should the likes of Olympic, Alitalia, Austrian, TAP, SAS, and others that continue to lose money. I would not be surprised to see a Europe with just three long-haul legacy airlines: British Airways/Iberia, serving oneworld customers through LHR, and to a much lesser extent MAD (primarily just handling Latin American pax through there), Air France/KLM, serving SkyTeam through a dual-hub network based at CDG and AMS, and Lufthansa/Swiss (perhaps BD, OS, SN, and others too!) handling Star Alliance pax at FRA, MUC, ZRH, and maybe even MXP, VIE, and BRU as the LH family continues to grow...

Quoting Flyyul (Thread starter):
Barcelona is growing significantly in popularity with Canadian travellers

Spain's warm weather, welcoming culture, and beautiful scenery/beaches/architecture/attractions are surely a hit with the Canadians!

Interesting choice to split both of these flights between YYZ/YUL on alternate days. Is this a new strategy for AC? If so, why? Initially, it seemed as though Toronto was the airline's only true hub, whilst Montreal saw a few flights to Francophone places like CDG, GVA, BRU, PTP, PAP, FDF, etc. But now, with flights leaving for FCO, BCN, and ATH, could Montreal be evolving into a true secondary hub a la MUC to alleviate congestion at Toronto??



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineFlyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 8 hours ago) and read 9779 times:

Markets such as Barcelona and Athens have almost equal market sizes from Montreal & Toronto - which is not typical. Toronto usually overwhelmingly dominates the market sizes to the UK/Netherlands/Eastern Europe/Germany/Scandinavia.. where YUL has some strength in the Middle East/North Africa/France/Belgium/Switzerland and Mediterranean

I would suspect that AC is trying to regain some leverage in the YUL market, where AF/TS have been more relevant with their capacity increases.

YYZ remains overwhelmingly the true hub for AC, it outnumbers YUL 3:1 in terms of long-haul departures..and I can only imagine that ratio inceasing when the 787 comes onboard.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26845 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 7 hours ago) and read 9766 times:



Quoting Flyyul (Thread starter):
Olympic is pulling out of Canada

I thought someone would come in to fill the gap. Shame OA couldnt have done a codeshare deal with AC instead of KL Via AMS.


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8540 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 7 hours ago) and read 9778 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 1):
whilst Montreal saw a few flights to Francophone places like CDG, GVA, BRU, PTP, PAP, FDF, etc

it could be a belated realisation on the behalf of AC management that Montréal is not only the biggest Francophone city in Canada , it is also the second biggest Anglophone city - so it does not need to be restricted to service to Francophone destinations only .

surely no coincidence that the 3 European points announced for next year are the hubs for SN , A3 and JK all *A members ( or at least should all be by the time the flights commence )



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineNaritaflyer From Japan, joined Apr 2006, 549 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 7 hours ago) and read 9773 times:

I am currious where the aircraft are coming from. With Brussels being launched next year there are two 767-300s that must be coming from somewhere. Which routes are being dropped to free up the aircraft?

User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 7 hours ago) and read 9687 times:



Quoting Flyyul (Thread starter):
Barcelona is growing significantly in popularity with Canadian travellers.

Let me tell you, AC should advertise in BCN as Canada is a very popular summer destination with Spaniards, specially Quebec due to the european flavor. Flight could get some boost out of the Spain side as well



744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
User currently offlineChrisA330 From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 5 hours ago) and read 9565 times:

"Air Canada flights will be operated using 244-seat Boeing 767-300ER
aircraft providing best-value all-economy service for leisure travellers, with
the option of enhanced seating comfort and legroom in the forward cabin."


The 3 non-XMd 767-300s are being cleaned up and are receiving J seats similar to Domestic J seats for the forward cabin. The old Executive First seats are being removed. In addition no AVOD will be installed on these aircraft.


User currently offlineAC888YOW From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 531 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 5 hours ago) and read 9486 times:

Fabulous news by AC. Too bad about this though (although understandable considering the type of markets):

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 7):
The 3 non-XMd 767-300s are being cleaned up and are receiving J seats similar to Domestic J seats for the forward cabin. The old Executive First seats are being removed. In addition no AVOD will be installed on these aircraft.



User currently offlineLIPZ From Austria, joined Jun 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 4 hours ago) and read 9421 times:

As regards Barcelona I think AC never flew there before.
But does anyone remember when the last time of Air Canada regularly flying to Athens?


User currently offlineYulguy From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 4 hours ago) and read 9355 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 4):
it could be a belated realisation on the behalf of AC management that Montréal is not only the biggest Francophone city in Canada , it is also the second biggest Anglophone city - so it does not need to be restricted to service to Francophone destinations only .

I think you mean that Montreal is the largest french-speaking city in Canada and the second largest city in Canada. It's not Canada's "second biggest anglophone city" (that title would go to Vancouver). Montreal's a french-speaking metropolis with a sizeable anglophone minority.

That being said, you're right. AC is obviously putting more emphasis on the advantages of YUL as a hub, as an alternative to YYZ. Actually, there's an interesting article in La Presse about this. I'll post the link here (in French only):

http://lapresseaffaires.cyberpresse....redevient-une-plaque-tournante.php



"Celui qui diffère de moi, loin de me léser, m'enrichit." - Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8540 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 4 hours ago) and read 9339 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Yulguy (Reply 10):
I think you mean that Montreal is the largest french-speaking city in Canada and the second largest city in Canada. It's not Canada's "second biggest anglophone city"

you are the local so I will take your word for it , but I know that during the run up to the Outgames in Montréal in 2006 a lot of the publicity included 'the little known fact* that Montréal is the second largest Anglophone city in Canada"


*Of course if it is not actually true that could be why it is "little known" , I guess that is publicity for you  

[Edited 2009-08-28 08:23:44]


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineFlyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 4 hours ago) and read 9311 times:



Quoting Yulguy (Reply 10):

I think you mean that Montreal is the largest french-speaking city in Canada and the second largest city in Canada. It's not Canada's "second biggest anglophone city" (that title would go to Vancouver). Montreal's a french-speaking metropolis with a sizeable anglophone minority.

That being said, you're right. AC is obviously putting more emphasis on the advantages of YUL as a hub, as an alternative to YYZ. Actually, there's an interesting article in La Presse about this. I'll post the link here (in French only):

http://lapresseaffaires.cyberpresse....redevient-une-plaque-tournante.php

Notwithstanding AC's comments in the La Presse, there is a ceiling on Montreal. Toronto has much more global aspirations to be connected to India/Asia/more South America and the African continent.

I see this more AC connecting YUL to obvious places of high potential.. given that their YYZ network to Europe is already quite built up.


User currently offlineSflaflight From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1183 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 2 hours ago) and read 9156 times:

just to clarify - here are the ''official'' population totals according to BBM (Bureau of Broadcast Measurement) - Canada's version of Nielsen/Arbitron.

Some points about these numbers: 1) people are classified as either Anglophone/Francophone 2) these numbers are not the entire pouplation. They are people 2 years old +, as younger people generally don't speak yet and don't listen to radio/watch TV. 3) These are the numbers for the entire Montreal viewing area, which is also pretty much YUL's catchment area. Of course there will be some bleed over (Ottawa, US and Eastern Townships maybe) but for the most part, Montreal's coverage area is also YUL's travelling population. Also the total number is rounded to the nearest thousand (with the Francophone population getting +1 because it is the majority and the Anglophone getting -1 as the minority). It is important to remember that most Montreal Anglophones speak some form of French and a good size of Montreal's Francophone population can manage in English. These are primary language numbers.

Total Montreal: 3 713 000

Total Francophone: 2 885 001

Total Anglophone: 827 999


Compared to other cities - which are all considered Anglophone (with the exception of Ottawa which is also split) here is the placement.

Overall order.............................................Anglophone Only
1) Toronto.................................................Toronto
2) Montreal...............................................Vancouver
3) Vancouver.............................................Calgary
4) Ottawa+Gatineau...................................Edmonton
5) Calgary.................................................Montreal
6) Edmonton..............................................Ottawa
7) Quebec.................................................Hamilton
8) Hamilton+Burlington...............................Winnipeg
9) Winnipeg...............................................Every other market is below 500 000 people
Every other market is below 500 000 people

For statistical broadcsting purposes, Hamilton is its own market with Burlington, if we in aviation choose to combine Hamilton with Toronto, nothing would change as it would affect market the already top market.


User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5231 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 2 hours ago) and read 9127 times:



Quoting LIPZ (Reply 9):
But does anyone remember when the last time of Air Canada regularly flying to Athens?

They last served ATH in the early 90s.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2374 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 2 hours ago) and read 9067 times:

I had called it for ATH. BCN comes as a bit of surprise.

BEY is next.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineAH332 From Algeria, joined Mar 2007, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 1 hour ago) and read 8731 times:

Hi,

Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 15):
I had called it for ATH. BCN comes as a bit of surprise.

BEY is next.

Yah, ATH seems logical and BCN does come as a surprise but it does make sense. As for BEY, I thought AC didn't have rights to fly to Lebanon? But, if they can fly there I think they would make a killing on the route, stealing a lot of passengers from AF and to an extent RJ and AH! Especially seeing as MEA doesn't fly to YUL.

Another question would be if the 763 can do it economically without restrictions? Although, I believe that a 77W probably can be filled during the summer on a less than daily basis.

Cheers,
Imad



Bledi Heya Al Djazaeer! // Next Flights: AB MIA-DUS-ORY, AF ORY-MRS-ALG
User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months ago) and read 8685 times:



Quoting AH332 (Reply 16):

Yah, ATH seems logical and BCN does come as a surprise but it does make sense. As for BEY, I thought AC didn't have rights to fly to Lebanon? But, if they can fly there I think they would make a killing on the route, stealing a lot of passengers from AF and to an extent RJ and AH! Especially seeing as MEA doesn't fly to YUL.

Another question would be if the 763 can do it economically without restrictions? Although, I believe that a 77W probably can be filled during the summer on a less than daily basis.

AC uses the 763 on YYZ-TLV, and while that is a stretch, BEY and ATH are shorter distances. It's economical if the yield is high enough.

As for BEY, we've been down this path many times. AC was asked by Canadian authorities to cancel BEY shortly before the route was launched. It has the regulatory green light to serve BEY, but not the "political" green light. The political green light may involve the US - perhaps scared of the prospect of terrorists entering North America via Canada and then driving over the Canada-US border, where, until recently, you could do so with locally issued ID like a driver's licence. Now, with the passport requirement and the general upgrading of even secondary road crossing - like the one in North Dakota that sees an average of 73 crossings a day and is getting a $15 million upgrade with stimulus money - the situation with respect to BEY might change. But I wouldn't bet on it.


User currently offlineElmoTheHobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months ago) and read 8646 times:



Quoting AH332 (Reply 16):
Yah, ATH seems logical and BCN does come as a surprise but it does make sense. As for BEY, I thought AC didn't have rights to fly to Lebanon? But, if they can fly there I think they would make a killing on the route, stealing a lot of passengers from AF and to an extent RJ and AH! Especially seeing as MEA doesn't fly to YUL.

They do have the right and they've even announced such a service, which was to start in 2003. The service never took off, as the United States pressured the Canadians into pressuring Air Canada to not launch the route.

The United States' stance on Lebanon changed in 2007 and such an objection would not be be made now.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24796 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months ago) and read 8553 times:



Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 13):
just to clarify - here are the ''official'' population totals according to BBM (Bureau of Broadcast Measurement) - Canada's version of Nielsen/Arbitron.

I think it's more meaningful to use official Canadian census metropolitan area population data where Montreal is only the 7th largest metro area based on the number of native Anglophones (English mother tongue). These numbers of course don't indicate the number of people who can speak English but where it's not their mother tongue.

English mother tongue totals from latest (2006) Census.

Toronto - 2,961,330
Vancouver - 1,263,385
Calgary - 826,755
Edmonton - 814,080
Ottawa-Gatineau - 569,875
Winnipeg - 525,045
Montreal - 435,070


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24796 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months ago) and read 8517 times:



Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 7):
"Air Canada flights will be operated using 244-seat Boeing 767-300ER
aircraft providing best-value all-economy service for leisure travellers, with
the option of enhanced seating comfort and legroom in the forward cabin."

The 3 non-XMd 767-300s are being cleaned up and are receiving J seats similar to Domestic J seats for the forward cabin. The old Executive First seats are being removed. In addition no AVOD will be installed on these aircraft.

What will the J/Y breakdown be with the new configuration? Going from the currentf 213 seats (25/188) to 244 on the 3 non-XM'd 763s seems like a big increase if it's only based on replacing the current 25 J reclining seats in a 2-2-1 layout at 58-60 inch pitch with a similar number of new J seats (possibly in a 2-2-2 layout?) at roughly 38 inch pitch. I don't think the J seats on AC's A319/320/321 fleet would fit on a 767 at 2-2-2.


User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2374 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8179 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 1):
Interesting choice to split both of these flights between YYZ/YUL on alternate days. Is this a new strategy for AC

AC wants to compete with TS on this route, and the only way to do that is to offer non-stop service. The flight is already 8 hours long, so anything but a non-stop flight is probably not too attractive in the eyes of the customers.

This is a good move by AC, vesus having a YYZ-YUL-XXX operation like GVA and the upcoming BRU flight.

I am sure OA would have been doing the same thing, if it wasn't for the lack of A340's in their fleet.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2009-08-28 14:17:55]


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineYulguy From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8043 times:



Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 13):
Total Montreal: 3 713 000

Total Francophone: 2 885 001

Total Anglophone: 827 999

I think BBM has the definition of anglophone mixed up. Anglophones are those whose mother tongue is English. According to Stats Can, that number is smaller than 500,000 in the Montreal Census Metropolitan Area (CMA), as I see Viscount724 pointed out. In any case, I don't think that our proportion of English-speaking people (native or otherwise) has much to do with AC's addition of ATH and BCN to its YUL roster.

Anyway, great news for AC and YUL. However, I'm sad to see OA leaving us. I really hope BEY happens one day. AF probably doesn't.



"Celui qui diffère de moi, loin de me léser, m'enrichit." - Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2176 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7964 times:



Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 1):
But now, with flights leaving for FCO, BCN, and ATH, could Montreal be evolving into a true secondary hub a la MUC to alleviate congestion at Toronto??

Well, YUL has direct flights to most large Canadian cities which do not have such intercontinental service, so yes, it could become so. Moreover, it is significantly advantageous over YYZ for anything E of YUL as it reduces the backtrack when coming form Europe (thinking of YQB, Halifax, St Johns among others). Also, it reduces the flying time by 45 minutes or so each way, allowing for better use of aircraft. Also, for Central and Western Canadian cities such as YYC, Edmonton, Winnipeg, the more northern location of YUL compared to YYZ shortens a bit the distance travelled, making it again advantageous. There is no point of connecting in congested YYZ if it can be conveniently avoided with good connection times.
In this scheme, the YUL flights would mostly get the connecting traffic while the YYZ ones would mostly get the o&d traffic.
YUL would actually become AC's third hub (it already is anyway) as YVR already is the second hub and would probably remain so.

Quoting Flyyul (Reply 2):
I can only imagine that ratio inceasing when the 787 comes onboard.

Can't the 787 also fly into YUL?



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineNoise From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1768 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7873 times:

Anglophones are those who use English as their 'Home Language' and not necessarily those who have English as their 'Mother Tongue'. For example, my mother tongue (the language I first learned and still understand) is not English, however I definitely consider myself an Anglophone as it is the language I use everyday at home, with my friends, with my family...it's the language of my everyday life and the one I identify myself with.

25 Pnwtraveler : Both statistics are correct. In the case of the population of cities it is people who reside there, versus BBM which is people who identify they watch
26 Thenoflyzone : I wonder how these new flights will impact LH's operations to Canada. I for one have flown from Canada to ATH and BCN, and have used LH to connect bot
27 Aircatalonia : There's already Air Transat flying non-stop Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal to Barcelona. With A310s and A330s if I remember correctly. Not sure about
28 Yegbey01 : Well...Just having flown ATH-PHL-DCA on US Airways about 10 days ago, I saw a bunch of fellow Canadians board the ATH-PHL who were connecting to YUL d
29 SSTsomeday : I wonder if the Canadian government pressured AC to include YUL in their expansion plans in order to encourage commerce and connectivity between Queb
30 Sflaflight : Interesting. I was wondering what the difference was as well. I also was wondering how the bilingual factor played in. Myself, being perfectly biling
31 LongHauler : I agree. I remember the whole Bill 101 (language law) debate. The opinion of the Quebec government was "Bill 101 or the 401!" (401 is the Highway fro
32 Post contains links Jamincan : It is interesting to note that although the number of people who are native speakers of French significantly outnumber the number of those who are nat
33 Flyyul : Thats how you rationalize expansion to Montreal - it must be the government forcing Air Canada's (no longer a crown corp since 1991) hand into loss l
34 Pnwtraveler : The government has no say in the running of AC. AC would never place a flight to keep the government happy they are so far beyond that now. As mention
35 Skywatcher : Any expansion these days must be well researched before the decision is taken. AC must take risks and defend its home market against the European carr
36 SSTsomeday : No - but the government still has some control over awarding/permitting routes, etc., does it not? For example - as I recall EK may only fly into Can
37 Thenoflyzone : Yes, as was the case for the failed attempt by AC to launch YUL-BEY in 2003. As for EK and its access into Canada, that has to do with the bilateral
38 AH332 : Hi, Wow, it's soo freaky how that's my almost exact situation. I did K-5 in french in Ottawa, then 6-7 in English, but then i moved down to Boca Raton
39 Viscount724 : It's always the governments, not the airlines, that negotiate air services agreements with other countries. It's also up to the government to designa
40 Whiteguy : 24J and 220Y. The front won't be sold as Executive First, its more of a Super Comfort. Service will be the same in the front and back just pay a litt
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
VY, XG Resume Malta From MAD & BCN For Summer 2009 posted Wed Dec 31 2008 07:42:00 by BBADXB
Is There Room For AC To Fly Nonstop YYZ To KIX? posted Thu May 18 2006 04:05:46 by AirCanada014
AC To Launch YYZ-PEK Nonstop posted Tue Feb 1 2005 21:06:09 by Scf158
AC To Launch Non-stop Service From YYZ To India posted Thu Jul 3 2003 23:51:24 by SafeFlyer
Virgin To Launch LGW-YYZ In Summer 2001 posted Thu Nov 30 2000 16:54:23 by Jiml1126
AC To Fly A319 YYZ-YQT posted Sun Nov 16 2008 17:52:51 by FighterPilot
AC And YVR-YUL/YYZ This Winter posted Wed Oct 29 2008 12:14:34 by ZBBYLW
LanChile To Canada (YUL/YYZ) posted Wed Mar 12 2008 21:34:08 by Flyyul
Official: Zoom Airlines To Fly YUL/YYZ-FCO posted Wed Jan 23 2008 19:59:07 by FLYYUL
AC To Launch YOW-LAS Nonstop posted Thu May 31 2007 21:22:36 by YOW