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FRA Night Curfew?  
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9528 posts, RR: 31
Posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9041 times:

No one hs reflected yet on the outcome of the legal action regarding the current extension of FRA. That court decision was published last Friday August 21st and the basic result was

new runway for landings only yes, but a strict night curfew, no permission for the requested 17 night ops (too little anyway) and restricted ops of only 150 (total) for the hours of m22h00 to 2300 and 05h00 to 06h00.

That is a ruling with which the airline industry, namely the home carrier LH cannot live.

Especially LH cargo would be hard hit and they would simply have to sell their own freighters, resp. refrain from ordering new metal.

A link , in German only is here

http://www.airliners.de/nachrichten/...t-nachtflugverbot-abschaffen/18958

The CEO of LH, Carsten Spohr, has made it quite clear that, should the curfew become foinal, they will carry cargo in bellies only from that time on. That would be a hard blow for a pioneer cargoi airline like LH, after all, LH was the first operator of a 747F with nose door and still to day is the second largest freight carrier after KE.

One can see how ill informed politicians, fishing for those few votes of NIMBYs can ruin a whole industry. it simply cannot be, that the main air hub of Germany is closed for 6 hours each night and cut off from the rest of the world. That would be unfit for a leading export nation and drive other industry that relies on such flights away and out of the country.

One can only hope that mental sanity prevails and make the necessary and required night ops possible.,


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
77 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 822 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8986 times:

I already heard about the decision some days ago and what i really began to wonder about is, why is it that nimbys have more power than the airline industry?


So many decisions are made which let you wonder why are always the industries winning when some citizens are taking some case to a court.

But when it comes to the airline industry the loser is is always the industry, never the few nimbys which knew what could come when they move close to an airport.

The people of Kelsterbach moved to a village 2km from the main terminals, the new runway threshold will be 1000m from the rwy18 threshold. What is changing for them now?

And to also regard the other side, is the airline industry just to weak? Aren't they lobbying good enough? Why don't they move whole villages? Kelsterbach, Okriftel, Eddersheim, Flörsheim? It wasn't a "problem" at SXF / BBI, too?!

[Edited 2009-08-29 05:02:37]

User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9077 posts, RR: 76
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8980 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting PanHAM (Thread starter):
Especially LH cargo would be hard hit and they would simply have to sell their own freighters, resp. refrain from ordering new metal.

I read somewhere (cannot remeber where) a statement from C. Spohr that LH Cargo will be closed and all planes sold if in FRA no night departures are allowed anymore. That means: No night flights, no LH Cargo anymore...
I read that on some German news station website, but I cannot find it anymore...

wilco737



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 822 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8955 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 2):
I read somewhere (cannot remeber where) a statement from C. Spohr that LH Cargo will be closed and all planes sold if in FRA no night departures are allowed anymore. That means: No night flights, no LH Cargo anymore...
I read that on some German news station website, but I cannot find it anymore...

wilco737

Part of these statements are lobbying. If they can not make arrangements to fly at night i think they will just move to another airport.

I'm still believing there will be a second ruling giving LH Cargo the right to operate in the nightly hours.


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9528 posts, RR: 31
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8947 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 2):
read somewhere (cannot remeber where) a statement from C. Spohr that LH Cargo will be closed and all planes sold if in FRA no night departures are allowed anymore. That means: No night flights, no LH Cargo anymore...

It's actually in today's FAZ Rhein Main part as well, you don't get that paper outside the regiuon here, so read it online on faz.net- Scroll down to the bottom.

True, if the night curfew ruling becomes final, which will happen if the new federal government will make a law that says clearly and unmistakingly that the necessary night flights at airports must be possible, the Federal Administration Court in Leipzig will probably cover the main airport of Germany with complete silence at nights. That will not only affect freight ops but tourist flights as well, as it is impossible to make the necessary 2 or 3 rotations and bring your planes home by 11 pm .

No FRA based airline can use their investment properly and efficiently if such an idiotic night curfew is imposed. That is why LHCargo rightfully says that they have to sell their 19 strong MD11 fleet and will be unable to replace them with more qzuiet and environmentally equipment, be that 777F or 748F. They simply could not earn the depreciation of the investment if they have to idle parts of the fleet for 6 hours each night.

In that case the (then former) market leader would be reduced to a GSA for LH bellies and could eventually use some main deck of Aerologic and Jade plus other chartered equipment., Siggi Koehler would rotate in his grave in Bad Homburg on such news.

One can say that politics goofed that up here in the state of Hesse. The PM has made, driven by his -in this issue divided - home base /especially the Floersheim CDU and the county manager of MTK whose brother is a fierce opponent of the new runway- wrong promises against his better knowledge avout a night curfew.

He tried to "get the curve" with the planning permission which inclued the permission of 17 night ops,(which would have been too little anyhow) and that is what the Hesse Administrative Court cancelled.

Thanks to the FDP whose main candifdate in Hesse for the new Bundestag voiced the need for night operations today. At least one politicians who gets out and says the right thing, but he got the flak from the socialists and the greens already.

One third of the German exports in value move via FRA, closing the main gateway at night will not only have disastrous effects on LH Cargo and the air cargo industry but generally on German industry as well.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9077 posts, RR: 76
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8943 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting CARST (Reply 3):
If they can not make arrangements to fly at night i think they will just move to another airport.

That's not so easy as well. There are not many airports in Germany anymore where night ops are allowed. Even in LEJ it is more restrictive now. And it needs to be an airport with a proper infrastructure. And it is hell of a lot of money to move a whole fleet operation to another airport... If that will ever be done?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
It's actually in today's FAZ Rhein Main part as well, you don't get that paper outside the regiuon here, so read it online on faz.net- Scroll down to the bottom.

Thanks. I knew I read it somewhere, but couldn't find it anymore...

It looks like I need to leave LH Cargo ASAP  Sad

wilco737



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9528 posts, RR: 31
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8922 times:



Quoting CARST (Reply 3):
Part of these statements are lobbying. If they can not make arrangements to fly at night i think they will just move to another airport.

that won't work, CARST. There is an interactivity between main deck and belly cargo each day and night and that must be right here at the location FRA. If you take the connectivity out the whole system does not work anymore.

Quoting CARST (Reply 3):
I'm still believing there will be a second ruling giving LH Cargo the right to operate in the nightly hours.

So do I. But this is a political matter mow, if the election in 4 weeks gows wrong an Gabriel or another dummkopf from that side of the spectrum becomes environmental minister again that'll be it.

Fraport itself is no big help in this matter either, they put the gear in neutral.

They got what they want, a fourth runway for landings, upping the annual operations to 700.000 and with the third terminal the annual passenger capacity to close to 90 million.

Third terminal means a third shopping plaza and an additonal 25 Million plus pax means that number of additonal suckers for so called "duty" free shopping on which they by far make more profits than on dirty and ugly air cargo.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 822 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8891 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
that won't work, CARST. There is an interactivity between main deck and belly cargo each day and night and that must be right here at the location FRA

I didn't thought about that point, could really be a problem...

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
Fraport itself is no big help in this matter either, they put the gear in neutral.

I have my doubts here, LH is their best customer and they should be interested in having a happy customer who is not thinking about moving large parts of his operations to another airport. Otherwise Fraport has a dumb management...

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
So do I. But this is a political matter mow, if the election in 4 weeks gows wrong an Gabriel or another dummkopf from that side of the spectrum becomes environmental minister again that'll be it.

Perhaps we can call us lucky in this case... numbers are currently looking good to bring an end to that politically supported green industry.

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 5):
It looks like I need to leave LH Cargo ASAP

Wait 2 years and you are flying the 748. Won't be your problem then what happens to LH Cargo and their night ops at FRA. ^^


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9528 posts, RR: 31
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8860 times:



Quoting CARST (Reply 7):
have my doubts here, LH is their best customer and they should be interested in having a happy customer who is not thinking about moving large parts of his operations to another airport. Otherwise Fraport has a dumb management...

The Fraport management is very smart, the new CEO had enough time to get acquainted with his new job.

But LH does not move a large portion of their business, they will simply lose it to other carriers if they cannot offer routings via FRA with optimized connectivity any longer.

Cargo is like water, it always finds its way. I am an airfreight forwarder and I have done thousands of routings for my customers over the many years when I actively did exports. The customer wants price and speed, in that order. But the best price is nothing if the freight is in transit too long. If there is no connectivity through FRA, a forwarder in India or the US or South Africa will route the shipments via LUX CDG or AMS.

Simple math, FRA has an annual turnover of 2 Million tons of ffreight. 3/4th of that is by LH and about 40 percent of that is carried main deck in freighters. Roughly that means FRA will lose about 600000 tons per annum, plus the number FX turns over when they leave to CGN. That will kick FRA out of the top 10 world wide.

In terms of money, and ROI however, the 600 000 tons less mean nothingf compared to what 25 million pax will bring to the bottom line. This calculation could only be jeopardized when the main tenant LH says that he will move major portions of traffic away from FRA because he can't fill the bellies with freight any more. Which is something that might happen.

An airport works like a clock, if you take a wheel out, the whole thing does not work any more.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8481 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8838 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Thread starter):
Especially LH cargo would be hard hit and they would simply have to sell their own freighters, resp. refrain from ordering new metal.

Non-sense. Why do they need to operate cargo flights between 11pm and 5am? Not becuase that's the best time becasue Cargo doesn't care what time it departs and arrives, but it saves valuable day-time "slots". If you have an added runway then you have additional "slots" and therefore you no longer need night operations as much. Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me.

Quoting CARST (Reply 1):
But when it comes to the airline industry the loser is is always the industry, never the few nimbys which knew what could come when they move close to an airport.

I've been saying for years. The greatest challenge for the future of air travel is not technology or catering to the wims of a few travelers but rather, the ever increasing environmental restrictions imposed on the industry. The idea of running multiple daily frequencies between 2 city pairs, with small planes will become prohibitively expensive when airport expansion projects are no longer allowed and even existing airports find themselves increasingly restricted, to say nothing of the trend to impose "polution" taxes. The vast majority of the voting public doesn't care if a 787 takes off for an 8,000nm trip 20 times a day. They'd much rather see an A380 taking off 10 times a day.

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 5):
That's not so easy as well. There are not many airports in Germany anymore where night ops are allowed. Even in LEJ it is more restrictive now. And it needs to be an airport with a proper infrastructure. And it is hell of a lot of money to move a whole fleet operation to another airport... If that will ever be done?

See above regarding night ops. Yes Germany is the largest exporter in Europe but most of it doesn't travel by air. Also, FRA is a cargo hug. They can probably shift a lot of it to another one of their cargo hubs. LH operates 4 world-wide cargo hubs. LH has to decide what's more important for them for a 6am arrival: a passenger flight from BOS or a cargo flight from SHJ?


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9528 posts, RR: 31
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8817 times:



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 9):
Non-sense. Why do they need to operate cargo flights between 11pm and 5am? Not becuase that's the best time becasue Cargo doesn't care what time it departs and arrives, but it saves valuable day-time "slots". If you have an added runway then you have additional "slots" and therefore you no longer need night operations as much. Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me.

Like I said, I am over 40 years in air cargo and what you say is BS. You need a 3 or 4 am departure to arrive at JFK or ORD around 6 am in the morning so the freight gets to the customers on that day. When I worked at JFK, driving to work in the morning I had my greetings from the home country, the 747F sitting at the LH terminal, then bldg 230. That flight left FRA around 4 am and was back late evening for onward connections from FRA . That cargo was delivered all over Europe the next day. These days, in the mid 70s, LH still had the 727 QC which left FRA quite noisy during the night as well.

Making a statement like yours above only says that you know nothing about air cargo.





Quoting Airbazar (Reply 9):
See above regarding night ops. Yes Germany is the largest exporter in Europe but most of it doesn't travel by air. Also, FRA is a cargo hug. They can probably shift a lot of it to another one of their cargo hubs. LH operates 4 world-wide cargo hubs. LH has to decide what's more important for them for a 6am arrival: a passenger flight from BOS or a cargo

One third of the German exports in value goes by air via FRA. Cargo cannot be shoifted to other hubs for lack of connectivity there., I explained that above. Pax and all cargo interlines, one cannot do without the other. I wonder which the 4 world wide cargo hubs are that you mention?



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineMutu From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8655 times:

Well it looks like LH and FRA will soon be joining the BA/BD/VS and LHR club!!
A club where the single most important hub of a global leading business restricts the ability of that global leader to expand its business as demand increases.

At least FRA doesnt have to live with only 2 runways!

This looks like a most shortsighted ruling, but then here in the UK there have been numerous such rulings over the past decades restricting the expansion of LHR. Its the way of things now I guess


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25741 posts, RR: 50
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8577 times:



Quoting CARST (Reply 1):
i really began to wonder about is, why is it that nimbys have more power than the airline industry?

Very simple -- because NIMBY are the people, and the people decide, not a corporate special interest.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
if such an idiotic night curfew is imposed

Idiotic? Many global airports espcially in Europe have night time bans. LHR, NRT, ZRH, CDG, etc all seem to survive fine without hundreds of night time movements.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAirNz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8532 times:



Quoting CARST (Reply 1):
But when it comes to the airline industry the loser is is always the industry, never the few nimbys which knew what could come when they move close to an airport.

Because the end doesn't justify the means. You may disagree with the decision if you wish but, at the end of the day, the airline industry is a special interest service industry....why should it be catered for at the expense of other very important interests and which, or course, you don't even take the time to consider?

Quoting CARST (Reply 1):
Why don't they move whole villages?

I'm afraid that really says it all regarding your outlook. I'll say it....if you were one of those residents you'd be among the first to be in court as well, irrespective of the sound bites.

Quoting CARST (Reply 7):
LH is their best customer and they should be interested in having a happy customer who is not thinking about moving large parts of his operations to another airport. Otherwise Fraport has a dumb management...

Have they, just because you disagree? So you're saying keep a customer happy at all costs.....bend over backwards until the next time they decide they want something else eh? When would you, yourself, decide enough is enough after pledging to keep that customer happy?

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 9):
Non-sense. Why do they need to operate cargo flights between 11pm and 5am? Not becuase that's the best time becasue Cargo doesn't care what time it departs and arrives, but it saves valuable day-time "slots". If you have an added runway then you have additional "slots" and therefore you no longer need night operations as much. Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me.

 checkmark  absolutely, and I entirely agree!

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
You need a 3 or 4 am departure to arrive at JFK or ORD around 6 am in the morning so the freight gets to the customers on that day

Then something needs to change. If some customers can't get their freight on the that day then, too bad....is the whole world going to collapse because someone has to wait a few more hours? There is no valid reason whatever that anyone absolutely needs to have their freight that specific day.....if that's the case, then they should have ordered it the day before! This "me, me, me nonsense" has to end.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
Very simple -- because NIMBY are the people, and the people decide, not a corporate special interest.

 checkmark  again......absolutely correct.


User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 822 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8489 times:



Quoting AirNz (Reply 13):
Because the end doesn't justify the means. You may disagree with the decision if you wish but, at the end of the day, the airline industry is a special interest service industry....why should it be catered for at the expense of other very important interests and which, or course, you don't even take the time to consider?

I considered that and have a valid reason for my opinion, but perhaps this quote from PanHAM says it all:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
One third of the German exports in value goes by air via FRA. Cargo cannot be shoifted to other hubs for lack of connectivity there., I explained that above. Pax and all cargo interlines, one cannot do without the other.



Quoting AirNz (Reply 13):
I'm afraid that really says it all regarding your outlook. I'll say it....if you were one of those residents you'd be among the first to be in court as well, irrespective of the sound bites.

I would get an new house for an old one. Why should i go to court? Moving villages is totally common in all countries around the world. It is not a thing happening in 3rd world countries.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
Very simple -- because NIMBY are the people, and the people decide, not a corporate special interest.

The problem is this is not how the free economy works. "NIMBYs" weren't able to shut down nuclear plants, normal people in most cases don't have a chance to win a case against large companies, only the airline industry is loosing all the time because of the bad standing they have at these times where every politician and ruling has to be "green".


I don't know how many years ago we started measuring aircraft noise, but i bet the in the 1970s you could hear much more aircraft noise in the villages surrounding FRA than today...


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25741 posts, RR: 50
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8466 times:

Quoting CARST (Reply 14):
The problem is this is not how the free economy works.

Well in a truly free economy there would be no rules or regulations. However at some point someone (government) must create policy that is meant to protect and benefit the majority of the people.

Listen I work in aviation, I love in industry, however I can very much understand and sympathize with people and understand how noise pollution can have negative effects especially at night.
I've lived some 5-15 miles from major airports most of my working life, and let me tell you that at night when the ambient noise outside is down, airport generated noise is often very pronounced as it gets propagated across a large area, more then during the day.

Quoting CARST (Reply 14):
i bet the in the 1970s you could hear much more aircraft noise in the villages surrounding FRA than today...

Possibly yes, but does not mean the situation today is right either.

Also one thing to consider which I have seen in airport noise studies it that while planes were certainly noisier 20-30 years ago, the volume of flight activity was also much less.
In otherworld’s fewer but nosier flights have been replaced by quieter but more frequent flying which cumulatively has the same if not worse noise pollution effects.
I recall a study here at LAX that showed the airport at some point in the 1970s with 707s and 727s was less a noise pollutant on the community then it is today with lots of A320/737NG flying simply because the flight activity has grown so much.

[Edited 2009-08-29 12:38:50]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8443 times:

Nothing but alarmism by LH. No way in hell they'll close LH Cargo.

And some people really need a little perspective here. Just because you're an aviation enthusiast this doesn't mean that the rest of the world shares your enthusiasm, most people couldn't care less. The government publicly promised after the 18 was built "there is no way that a new runway will be allowed".

I want to see your face when the government decides to built a new highway or a new railroad literally right through your backyard.

If you want unrestricted space and operations, move FRA. That's your only choice. Otherwise you'll have to find a compromise, and LH and Fraport should be thankful that the compromise is so much in their favour.

And I don't get why the term "nimby" is used in such a derogatory manner. What the hell do you expect people to do? They're protecting their interests, just as LH or Fraport. Why is this perfectly fine if a corporation does it, but when a mere citizen does it they're terrible nimbys? It's beyond me.

Noise is an health issue, you can't just ignore this fact. People have a right to be concerned about it and to take action about it.


User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 822 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8428 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
I've lived some 5-15 miles from major airports most of my working life, and let me tell you that at night when the ambient noise outside is down, airport generated noise is often very pronounced as it gets propagated across a large area, more then during the day.

I can totally understand that and that is why i suggested to move the villages in the near area.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
Possibly yes, but does not mean the situation today is right either.

Right. I am not ignoring that fact. But you know what? We need these airports. And at some point we have to make a trade-off between the welfare of some people living in two or three villages and the welfare of a lot of people living in the whole region.

I have no exact numbers, but ten-thousands of people work in the airfreight industry around FRA. And if a downfall of that industry affects the number of the German exports because the exported goods are more expensive then to buy because of higher cargo costs it becomes a trade-off between the welfare of a few and the welfare of a nation.

I know that is a little bit exaggerative, but it shows i am not just ignoring the people living around FRA i just made a trade-off. The whole live is composed of trade-offs and in this case the wrong decision was made, not because that is my opinion, no, because the trade-off should be in advantage of the majority as long as the few suffering from the decision get treated humanly and under a legal framework...

Quoting Racko (Reply 16):
And I don't get why the term "nimby" is used in such a derogatory manner. What the hell do you expect people to do? They're protecting their interests, just as LH or Fraport. Why is this perfectly fine if a corporation does it, but when a mere citizen does it they're terrible nimbys? It's beyond me.

Please see above...

Quoting Racko (Reply 16):
Noise is an health issue, you can't just ignore this fact. People have a right to be concerned about it and to take action about it.

Everyone living at a congested road has more noise then someone living 3km from an airport with some 200 movements between 2200 and 0600.

[Edited 2009-08-29 12:48:15]

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25741 posts, RR: 50
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8403 times:



Quoting CARST (Reply 17):
And at some point we have to make a trade-off between the welfare of some people living in two or three villages and the welfare of a lot of people living in the whole region.

Exactly and that is what the court did.

You might disagree along with many aviation fans or one with a business link to the airport and cargo operations, but I bet a very large portion of society in general applauds the decision.

Quoting CARST (Reply 17):
I have no exact numbers, but ten-thousands of people work in the airfreight industry around FRA. And if a downfall of that industry affects the number of the German exports because the exported goods are more expensive then to buy because of higher cargo costs it becomes a trade-off between the welfare of a few and the welfare of a nation.

Undeniably yes. But operating the airport at night has a negative cost to society also.

Recently the FAA did what is called a part-161 study here in Los Angeles regarding curfew enforcement at a local airport. The study very clearly showed that night time flights and their noise pollution also had a negative economic price on society.
Peoples health care cost would decline, home values would increase and tax revenue generated in the area would increase according to the FAA study if night time flights did not operate. (keep in mind the FAA is neutral in the study, and has no interest one way or the other in its results).

So yes maybe LH, and the cargo industry looses, but others benefit. As you said its a trade-off.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3033 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8394 times:



Quoting AirNz (Reply 13):
There is no valid reason whatever that anyone absolutely needs to have their freight that specific day

Ever heard of "just in time" supply chains - they substantially cut warehousing costs and the price of end products. Sure, we could go back to warehousing of components and increase product prices to consumers to cover the additional costs.

I have no idea if German law has a similar concept, but under the common law (Anglo-American, Canadian, etc.) there is a principle that you cannot "come to a nuisance" - i.e. you can't buy a house beside a pig farm and file a lawsuit about the smell. Same thing applies to moving next to an airport and complaining about planes.



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25741 posts, RR: 50
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8369 times:



Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 19):
Same thing applies to moving next to an airport and complaining about planes.

This has nothing to do with people running out and filing suit claiming the airport is noisy.

This case was about the airport requesting approval to expand by building and new terminal complex and a 4th runway. The night time movement restructions imposed by the local government is more of a mitigation stipulation as part of the approval for the runway.

Here are two stories in English which might help explain things.
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssI...UtilitiesNews/idUSLS68046720090828
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...ALeqM5gScic23ele_pm4DC7vZfDwXYLNcw



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8481 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8339 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
Making a statement like yours above only says that you know nothing about air cargo.

And yours shows how removed from reality you are. If the customer can't get the cargo at 6am then they're just going to have to get used to getting their cargo at 9 or 10 am. Period. We are not living in the 70's anymore.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
Very simple -- because NIMBY are the people, and the people decide, not a corporate special interest.

 checkmark  100%. Whether a small minority in the airline industry agrees with this or not, that is the current reality, and the way the general public is moving towards. I love airplanes as much as anyone but I guarantee you I would never vote in favor or anything flying over my house at 3am. Call me a NIMBY if you will. My quality of life comes first.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25638 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8311 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):

Idiotic? Many global airports espcially in Europe have night time bans. LHR, NRT, ZRH, CDG, etc all seem to survive fine without hundreds of night time movements.

Of those, I believe only NRT and ZRH have absolute night curfews where no operations are permitted between the applicable hours. I think LHR and CDG permit limited night operations subject to various restrictions.


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8481 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8090 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):
I think LHR and CDG permit limited night operations subject to various restrictions.

I think the point that people are missing here is the trend towards the future and not what we have today. I strongly believe that in the near future you will see a night curefew at just about any major airport in Europe. AMS just barely survived a total night ban a few years ago. I think it's only a matter of time until that issue comes up again.


User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3629 posts, RR: 29
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8023 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 5):
That's not so easy as well. There are not many airports in Germany anymore where night ops are allowed

Just move to CGN, just 150km away.


25 Kaiarahi : Really? Citing the article you referred to: "The court said it had received more than 200 complaints against the plans, of which it selected 13 as te
26 LAXintl : Absolutely -- people did not lodge a suit against the airport first, but instead the airport wishing to grow by building a new terminal and runway an
27 Gecmd11 : Should never have left CGN.......too late now! Does Hann have a curfew?
28 Racko : To better understand the issue, in chronological order: - Runway 18 gets built, massive protests - state government publicly promises: "There is no wa
29 PanHAM : see reply # 11 for your answer. BTW, we are ot talking about hundreds of night ops, it will be far less than 100 The customers will get their freight
30 PanHAM : That's when mistake one was made. For the same amlount ofd riots they could have had a third parallel runway in the south, Any discussion would be ob
31 BartBus : Just close the new runway at night and keep the current runways as they are. Make sure that only modern aircraft fly at night, there are a lot off old
32 PanHAM : Exactly. It was never intended to operate the new runway at nights The present judicial stale mate is keeping from LH Cargo from making necessary inv
33 MD11Engineer : I´ve got to say that the places mentioned (Kelsterbach etc.) are quite posh (just check the rents and buying prices for real estate in this region) a
34 PanHAM : HHN is ruled out as an alternative for LH and for the leisure traffic as well. You cannot establish the required connectivity - and that is exactly w
35 Racko : 1. Of course he did. 2. Of course he did. 3. I never disputed the fact that Koch was elected. I do agree however that discussing this is off topic. F
36 Airbazar : Oh I understand it very well. Cargo flights do not operate on a multiple fequency schedule like passenger flights do. If a business on the other side
37 Lightsaber : I haven't decided if this ruling is most advantageous to KL, EK, or UA. LH via this ruling just lost some of their competitive advantage for cargo at
38 Post contains links R2rho : In Germany, entire villages have been moved to make way for open-pit mining of coal to power all those enviromentally friendly coal power plants. Thi
39 Lightsaber : The more I thought about this thread, the more I realize its a victory for LH's competitors. Notably KL. But for cargo from India to Europe, this coul
40 MD11Engineer : In Niederrhein Weeze, ex RAF Lahrbruch) it were three people who went to court to get a (very early) curfew introduced. the situation there was simil
41 IliriBDL : Can't LH Cargo move the operation somewhere else? Like MUC for example?
42 PanHAM : send a PM and I gladly explain to you that he did not. Contrary to you, who has false information from the press I have, a detailled sequnce report a
43 Aviationmaster : Not only that, NIMBYs tried to lengthen the curfew a couple of years ago. Fortunately they failed. One problem with rulings favoring NIMBYs, is that
44 PanHAM : very little, simply because the majority living under the arrivals or departure path just sleep and don't wake up for each aircarft coming over their
45 Revelation : So much for your master's in IT: when BMW didn't have what I wanted on the lot, they got on to their computer and found another dealer who did, and I
46 Revelation : As I am reading here it seems it's LH that is trying to change an agreement they made in advance with the citizenry, so one can argue that it's LH th
47 PanHAM : LH never signed or voiced such an agreement. LH alwas said the night flights are necessary. The former CEO J Weber can be quoted: "As few as possible
48 Lightsaber : On a reduced scale, at best. For much of the cargo moves on in the early morning flights of the passenger aircraft. MUC does not have nearly the scal
49 Fxramper : Exactly what we are in the process of doing at FX. Cheaper, less congestion, and no curfew.
50 PanHAM : works for an integrator and FX is most welcome at CGN to fill the void DHL has left. Does not work for LH however.
51 Thenoflyzone : There you are mistaken. By Scheduled freight tonne-kilometres flown in 2008 (Based on IATA) 1. FedEx 2. UPS 3. Korean Air Cargo 4.Cathay Pacific 5. L
52 Lightsaber : LH needs the quick connections to the outgoing morning pax flights. I do wonder how much of a revenue hit this will be for LH? Side discussion via a.
53 PanHAM : Based on the criteria. FX and UPS are integrators, not pure cargo or combination carriers. Next, the ranking can depend on FTKs, revenue or prue tonn
54 Post contains links Thenoflyzone : http://www.iata.org/ps/publications/wats-freight-km.htm Thenoflyzone
55 Racko : Today's issue of the Frankfurter Rundschau has a 2 page feature on this very issue, including a) an interview with one of the mediators: "The curfew i
56 PanHAM : The Frankfurter Rundschau is doing everything to damage the airport. Read a paper for educated people, I suggest the FAZ. Again, and I just discussed
57 Lightsaber : Thank you! I didn't realize how much FX 's domestic dwarfs its international shipments. I find it interesting that LH does not fly much domestic carg
58 Racko : Oh, the FR is part of the conspirancy, too. Sorry, didn't know that. I'm sorry, but I put more faith in an actual mediator going on record than in wh
59 CARST : The point is in the end a new mediation process will start or a new court decision will be made... After the 4th runway is finished and the cargo comp
60 413x3 : Am I the only one who finds it amazing how the tiny country of Luxembourg handles so much freight? Just a great company all around, I hope they find s
61 PanHAM : Bull. I never said anything about a conspiracy, the FR is on a political side that is against anything especially when commercial interests are invol
62 LJ : I wonder why people think KL will benefit from a curfew at FRA. The number of slots at AMS are very limited and few are used by cargo airlines (the o
63 PanHAM : That's what you think. A good number of Dutch road transport companies (and German, Belgian etc as well) went bankcrupt this year or had to be sold b
64 LJ : This only a valid point for transit cargo (thus cargo from outside the EU and with destination outside the EU). The operating restrictions for cargo
65 Post contains links Lightsaber : That is sad. Its going to hit LH hard. I think it will be a slow spiral down for them. More pax, but less profit per passenger. So less money for the
66 413x3 : From what I'm reading, it seems Lufthansa could possibly be using this as an excuse to move the excess cargo not carried in the bellies of their pax p
67 PanHAM : I don't have this statistics, but all air cargo is time-sensitive. that's why it is shipped by air. The operating restrictions at FRA are important f
68 413x3 : With investments into Jade and Aerologic, and the super hub being built at EDDP, it seems like they have already decided on what to do with LHCargo in
69 LAXintl : You are gambling with peoples wealth, healthy and peace by operating at night also. You make it sound evil that the public and politicians would like
70 LJ : Though not an all out curfew, the slots are very limited (and mostly taken by pax flights). Furthermore, expect that AMS will never get any additiona
71 Lightsaber : But there are night slots that move cargo. If the value of moving cargo becomes high enough, I'm sure (for the right price), KL would consider buying
72 PanHAM : The "LEJ Superhub" is a DHL hub, not an LH Cargo hub.LEJ lacks the passenger flights to connect with. Aerologoic is a joint ventue with DHL, establis
73 LAXintl : Yes, but not necessarily so at night. As a US FAA part-161 noise study showed here, once the ambient noise of the day dissipates, airport operation n
74 Sancho99504 : I lived right off the end off 4R/22L at ORD for 4 years, enjoyed, the noise was no bother at all. People just want to complain and complain some more
75 PanHAM : FRA is the cross roads of 2 majore motorways, the car noise is 24 hours whereas, again, only a few night operations are needed and these can be made
76 Burkhard : We are weeks before the federal elections, which is open in result. Three possible outcomes: A coalition of CDU and liberals. They can find a legal so
77 PanHAM : The judges ruled on local zoning law which is overridden by national law. FRA is not a local issue but a vital part of the German economy. Night oper
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