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Market For More East Coast-Hawaii Flights?  
User currently offlineSoxfan From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 864 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 3 hours ago) and read 6917 times:

Hi All,

Do you think there's a market, at least in the winter, for more nonstop flights from the east coast to Hawaii? I know CO flies year-round out of Newark, but what about JFK, BOS, IAD, etc.? I think one of the major drawbacks is that a narrow-body aircraft like the 757 probably wouldn't be able to reach it on the fly, so an airline would have to devote a larger aircraft, such as a 767 or 777, for the flight to be nonstop.

Soxfan  Smile


Pilot: "Request push, which way should we face?" JFK Ground: "You better face the front, sir, or you'll scare the pax!"
24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineEwRkId From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 hours ago) and read 6911 times:

If it counts I believe DL flies ATL-HNL and US is gonna do CLT-HNL with the 762

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25166 posts, RR: 48
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 hours ago) and read 6872 times:

This gets asked every few months.

In summary - probably not much. If anything Hawaii-Eastern US service has actualy declined over the years.
Hawaii is much more a West Coaster getaway not much of a East Coast market who instead flock to Florida and the Caribbean.

Heck for most East Coasters they can get to the heart of Europe quicker then to Hawaii.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4424 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 hours ago) and read 6846 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):

I agree. When I used to live on the West Coast Hawaii and Mexico trips were a no brainer. Now that I live in NYC, it is a short hop to the Caribbean.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3119 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 hour ago) and read 6718 times:

I flew DCA-EWR-HNL a few years ago. Eleven hours of actual flying time on a DC-10 was too many consecutive hours to be in the air. I told myself never again.

The west coast makes for a nice stopover.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineSoxfan From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 864 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 hour ago) and read 6700 times:



Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 4):
The west coast makes for a nice stopover.

That's what I figured--a lot of people tend to like stopping on the west coast to break up the flight. I also agree that the Caribbean and Florida are closer vacation spots to which east-coastians might travel during the winter.

A question for someone with CO: How do the loads tend to be on the nonstop EWR-HNL? This flight is year-round, so it must be doing at least adequately, and currently is the only nonstop flight to Hawaii in the NE area.



Pilot: "Request push, which way should we face?" JFK Ground: "You better face the front, sir, or you'll scare the pax!"
User currently offlineNws2002 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 896 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 hour ago) and read 6661 times:



Quoting Soxfan (Reply 5):
A question for someone with CO: How do the loads tend to be on the nonstop EWR-HNL? This flight is year-round, so it must be doing at least adequately, and currently is the only nonstop flight to Hawaii in the NE area.

I have only worked on that flight twice, but both times the loads were high, doesn't mean revenue was, but loads were good. This flight tends to go very senior, at least for the flight attendants.


User currently offlineCGKings317 From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 306 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (5 years ago) and read 6625 times:
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Like others have been saying, the location of people's vacations are heavily influenced by where they call home.

Harking back from my SAT/GRE days, an analogue might be in order:

East Coast : Caribbean ::
West Coast : Hawaii/Mexico

Just like the East coast 'lacks' Hawaii flights, the West Coast 'lacks' Caribbean flights.

It is unlikely that more East Coast-HI n/s flights will commence unless a fundamental shift in travel patterns call for HI flights from the east coast. It is much easier in the eyes of the air carriers to funnel PAX to west coast airports or central airports than to tie up more aircraft on east coast-HI n/s flying.

~CGKings317  Smile



I love ✈ & volcanoes but the 2 of them dont get along, just ask KLM867 & PH-BFC
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2560 posts, RR: 53
Reply 8, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6512 times:



Quoting CGKings317 (Reply 7):
It is much easier in the eyes of the air carriers to funnel PAX to west coast airports or central airports than to tie up more aircraft on east coast-HI n/s flying

That is unless that carrier doesn't have west coast/central hubs, but does have a hub in Hawaii. My guess is that once Hawaiian gets the A330's, they'll begin flying to places like JFK, IAD, and/or BWI.

Although smaller than the number of Hawaii arrivals from the western US, those from the eastern US still totaled almost 1.7 Million in 2008. I wouldn't say that a direct flight from any large eastern city would change those numbers much, but I do think that HA could easily fill 250 seats a day from cities like New York, Washington, or Baltimore.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 9, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6330 times:



Quoting HAL (Reply 8):
That is unless that carrier doesn't have west coast/central hubs, but does have a hub in Hawaii. My guess is that once Hawaiian gets the A330's, they'll begin flying to places like JFK, IAD, and/or BWI.

I fully expect to see HA add service to the East Coast when the A330s arrive as well. New York is virtually a given, plus maybe Boston or DC. HA may find themselves slightly under the gun though, if they do not have feed on that end. CO, DL, and US will be filling their planes with people from all over the eastern seaboard, while HA will have to rely mostly on O&D unless, of course, they find a codeshare partner. What HA does have going for them is that they could snag a fair number of connections onward to the Phillipines and especially Australia.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
Heck for most East Coasters they can get to the heart of Europe quicker then to Hawaii.

It is a long flight, and long flights are expensive. It is rare to see really long flights to/from leisure destinations. Most tourists are more than willing to make a stop if it will save them some cash.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7577 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6248 times:

The East Coast market is mostly to the Carribean, not Hawaii. Given the distance, the flights cost more to operate for a smaller market.

The markets that get caught inbetween are the ones like ORD, DFW, and IAH. IAH and ORD both have flights to HNL. DFW has flights to HNL and OGG. But none of the above really has substantial Carribean. SJU, NAS, MBJ, and a couple of others. ORD has alot of snowbird traffic in the winter, but DFW and IAH rely on connections for their Carribean flights (for about half of the seats).



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 11, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5384 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 10):
IAH and ORD both have flights to HNL

I believe that UA still operates the ORD-OGG-KOA-ORD flight on a 777.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDiscoverCSG From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 831 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4761 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 10):
The markets that get caught inbetween are the ones like ORD, DFW, and IAH. IAH and ORD both have flights to HNL. DFW has flights to HNL and OGG. But none of the above really has substantial Carribean. SJU, NAS, MBJ, and a couple of others.

CO's IAH hub is a major gateway to the Caribbean and even more so, Mexico. NAS, SJU, CUR, POS, AUA, BON, GCM, plus at least a couple dozen markets in Mexico and Central America, all have nonstops on CO to IAH. Some of that is certainly business and VFR traffic, but surely the majority of it is tourism, especially to the beach resorts.

(Yes, I know ... don't call you Shirley)

[Edited 2009-08-31 14:55:20]

User currently offlineSlcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3441 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4259 times:

Its a leisure market and most people have no problem connecting/longer routing if its cheaper at all. Plus there are so many hubs on the west coast or central with great one stop connections to Hawaii. DFW, ORD, SLC, LAX, SFO, SEA, IAH all make for one stop connections to almost any cities in the US and ATL and EWR probably capture the rest that dont offer one stop connections

User currently onlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7577 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4041 times:



Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 12):
CO's IAH hub is a major gateway to the Caribbean and even more so, Mexico. NAS, SJU, CUR, POS, AUA, BON, GCM, plus at least a couple dozen markets in Mexico and Central America, all have nonstops on CO to IAH. Some of that is certainly business and VFR traffic, but surely the majority of it is tourism, especially to the beach resorts.

I really dont think IAH is a major gateway the Carribean.

CO doesnt fly IAH-CUR.

IAH-POS is a business route, and has nothing to do with tourism.

BON, GCM, and AUA are once weekly flights.

NAS, SJU, and MBJ have multiple nonstops on a weekly basis, but thats about it.

If you compare that to ATL, CLT, MIA, FLL, and EWR/JFK, who have multiple nonstops to these and many other destinations in the Carribean, its very weak.

I dont think anyone will argue that IAH is the premier gateway to Mexico, but most of the isnt leisure traffic. CUN, CZM, SJD, ACA, and PVR all are mostly leisure, but even then they carry VFR traffic to those places. CO at IAH (especially) and AA at DFW carry more VFR and business traffic to Mexico than leisure.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5801 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3885 times:

Hawaii publishes good tourism statistics which are available online. They are from the visitor cards completed onboard flights, so of course there will be a small error percentage. But overall they provide good comparison numbers.

This link is historical tourism arrivals in Hawaii since 1998.
http://hawaii.gov/dbedt/info/visitor-stats/HAWAII_HISTORICAL_2008.xls
Tab 14 is arrivals by state of origin. Tab 15 is arrivals by MSA.

So looking at MSAs for 2008:
Pittsburgh MSA sent 14,815 touists to the state of Hawaii.
Much smaller Eugene, Oregon MSA sent 14,216 tourists.

Quoting HAL (Reply 8):
Although smaller than the number of Hawaii arrivals from the western US, those from the eastern US still totaled almost 1.7 Million in 2008.

That would probably be all the east of the Mississippi states. Looking at smaller regions, a few examples:
New England states - 105,260
Mid-Atlantic states - 246,367
South Atlantic states - 369,270



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineUALFAson From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 721 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3816 times:

Also consider the trend that, because of the economy, more people are taking last-minute long weekend trips as opposed to 1-2 week long, planned-way-in-advance vacations.

From the east coast, one can be in the Caribbean in 3-4 hours; from the west coast, one can be in Cabo in 2.5 hours and Hawaii in 5.5. All of these examples are possibilities in a 3-4 day weekend, which is how people are traveling now.

Having flown to Hawaii from the east coast and the Caribbean from the west coast, it's really not worth it in either direction, as much as I have enjoyed both destinations. You wind up spending 2 days total traveling, and who wants to spend that much vacation time just getting to the beach, not relaxing there? Of course, there will always be some market (hence the EWR and ORD nonstops), but probably not much more to justify a whole lot of additional service when there are so many connections available through the west coast.



"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4050 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (4 years 12 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3563 times:



Quoting Soxfan (Reply 5):
I also agree that the Caribbean and Florida are closer vacation spots to which east-coastians might travel during the winter.

 checkmark  Which is why SLC & DEN are pretty much equal distance points between Hawaii and the Caribbean. Interestingly north of the border for a while YYC had charter flights to the Caribbean (PUJ/POP) with no direct scheduled service to Hawaii until AC announced they're bringing back 762 service to HNL discussed in a recent thread.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1989 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 12 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3480 times:

If I'm not mistaken, I may have heard something about HA looking at BOS at one point, but I don't think the demand is there. However, I could be wrong. Anything is possible.


2013 World Series Champions!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3316 times:



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 17):
Interestingly north of the border for a while YYC had charter flights to the Caribbean (PUJ/POP) with no direct scheduled service to Hawaii until AC announced they're bringing back 762 service to HNL discussed in a recent thread.

Several carriers have operated scheduled or charter YYC-HNL service in the past, including CP Air, Wardair, Harmony, and maybe one or two others.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 20, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3314 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
Several carriers have operated scheduled or charter YYC-HNL service in the past, including CP Air, Wardair, Harmony, and maybe one or two others.

Didn't AC announce recently that they were adding YYC-HNL two or three times a week on a 767? I always wondered why YYC didn't have direct scheduled service to HNL, but now that is answered.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3295 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
Several carriers have operated scheduled or charter YYC-HNL service in the past, including CP Air, Wardair, Harmony, and maybe one or two others.

Didn't AC announce recently that they were adding YYC-HNL two or three times a week on a 767?

Recent AC press release.
http://micro.newswire.ca/release.cgi...ey=1708185815&view=13213-0&Start=0

It's up to 5 a week YYC-Hawaii during ceratin periods, 2 to HNL and 3 to OGG.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22924 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3289 times:

Here are load factors to HNL for January, 2009

AA/ DFW: 90
AA/ LAX 84
AA/ ORD 89
AA/ SFO 61

AS/ ANC 91
AS/ SEA 90

CO/ EWR 94
CO/ IAH 95
CO/ LAX 70

DL/ ATL 95
DL/ LAX 80
DL/ SLC 90

HA/ LAS 82
HA/ LAX 85
HA/ OAK 73
HA/ PDX 84
HA/ PHX 80
HA/ SAN 87
HA/ SEA 70
HA/ SFO 78
HA/ SJC 75
HA/ SMF 88

NW/ LAX 92
NW/ MSP 95
NW/ PDX 83
NW/ SEA 84
NW/ SFO 82

UA/ DEN 93
UA/ LAX 80
UA/ ORD 87
UA/ SFO 83

US/ PHX 91

Loads from interior hubs seem quite strong. Yields and costs are, obviously, other issues.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7577 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3263 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 22):

Do you have loads for DFW-OGG on AA or ORD-OGG-KOA-ORD on UA?



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22924 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3224 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 23):
Do you have loads for DFW-OGG on AA or ORD-OGG-KOA-ORD on UA?

Sure... Like the others, these are westbound, January, 2009 (and have all the usual caveats associated with DOT numbers)

AA DFW-OGG 89
AA LAX-OGG 79

AS ANC-OGG 86
AS SEA-OGG 89

DL LAX-OGG 60
DL SLC-OGG 88

HA PDX-OGG 77
HA SEA-OGG 86

NW SEA-OGG 91

UA DEN-OGG 98
UA LAX-OGG 68
UA ORD-OGG 89
UA SFO-OGG 73

US PHX-OGG 82



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
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