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Airline Employees The Next Stunt For Terror?  
User currently offlineQantas777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 484 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7465 times:

Being a former airline employee , it makes me wonder if the next aviation attack will come from an actual employee of an airline?

The access gained is tremendous, namely, to the aircraft, and in the U.S it remains somewhat easy to board an aircraft without ever touching security and then going on the journey. Yikes.

My concern is for any type of employee, whether it be management down to ramp Doesn't matter, it just is pretty damn easy to do some damage and I hope authorities are on top of this.

43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJohnClipper From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2005, 835 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7424 times:

Who is to say that the 9/11 hijackers didn't already have "friends" on the inside? It's a possibility I would rather not think of, but I can remember after the ban on small pocket knives and box cutters, they were still being found in seat pockets. Makes you wonder...

User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24823 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7351 times:



Quoting Qantas777 (Thread starter):
it makes me wonder if the next aviation attack will come from an actual employee of an airline?

Lax security for airline staff has already caused several serious accidents/incidents. A couple below.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19871207-0
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19940407-0


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7264 times:

On 9/11/01, my initial thoughts were that it was an "inside job", as back then, when one thought of a hijacking, you thought of bombs and guns, not box cutters.

It wouldn't even have to be an airline employee. Airports have all sorts of vendors that deliver products to the airport and have access between the terminals/concourses and the ramp area. I'm not sure how things are done these days, but several years back when I worked for a book and magazine vendor @ ATL, our loads were never inspected when we drove onto the airport property. All we had to do was to give the security guard at the checkpoints our badges and the vehicle placard (They would check the tag number of the truck against the tag number on the placard.). We could have had unauthorized personnel stowed in the cargo section of the box truck or we could have had weapons or explosives stashed in the totes of books and magazines. The lack of inspection of our deliveries unnerved me a bit. At the time, the only vehicles that were subject to inspection were vehicles that were being escorted onto the airport property.

I do know that the screening of airport employees has strengthened since I last worked out there in 2005.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7260 times:



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 3):
I do know that the screening of airport employees has strengthened since I last worked out there in 2005.

Really? The TSA agents are never screened.  no 



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineContrails15 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7209 times:

I'll put it to you all this way. I liked it better when I didn't work for an airline and didn't know what behind the scenes. The same crap thats been going on pre 9/11 is going on now. Unless you wanna pump billions into Homeland Security and hire i would say 60-70 percent new personal in the TSA with people that give a damn about there job which would mean paying people better, well yeah something is going to happen. This list is endless with problems that I don't want to state on here. Anyone in the industry knows what going on, its up to each person to be aware. Thats the best security. Unfortunatly you got some real scum working at airports and airlines. Just pick up the paper, I'm sure there is an airline or airport story in there. God knows I read enough of them on this website. But what are you going to do, not fly anymore. Of course not and airlines don't have the money to have a secure airline like El AL. All I knows is I'll be flying.


Giants football!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7156 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):
Really? The TSA agents are never screened.

I guess they're given a pass since the assumption is that they're beyond reproach. But much like with law enforcement, there's bound to be some bad apples in the bunch, and some of those manage to slip one past the goalie so to speak.

Then again, someone who would in normal circumstances not do such a thing, could use their position to aid and abet terrorists trying to gain access either by way of being a passenger or an employee. People get into binds financially and the money that may be getting waved under their noses to assist someone with nefarious intentions may overrule their common sense.


User currently offlineSKYYBLUE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7138 times:



Quoting Qantas777 (Thread starter):

The access gained is tremendous, namely, to the aircraft, and in the U.S it remains somewhat easy to board an aircraft without ever touching security and then going on the journey. Yikes.

I was once based in ATL. I'm not sure about now, but in 2005 I not once had to go through security screening. It was very convenient, but at the same time very disturbing.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6857 times:



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 6):

I just don't get why the TSA agents don't need to be screened when they begin their shift and also when they go to lunch outside the secure area but the airline employees do.  confused  That makes absolutely no sense at all.

This needs to change.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineLHR380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6828 times:

Defiantly not the case in the UK, if at all, security is the same for Staff then as it is for a passenger.No differences at all when going from Landside to Airside.

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9159 posts, RR: 29
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6774 times:



Quoting LHR380 (Reply 9):
Defiantly not the case in the UK, if at all, security is the same for Staff then as it is for a passenger.No differences at all when going from Landside to Airside.

same in Germany and most other European countries, whoever enters the secure area is checked, at a separate gate from the passenger screening.

Considering the sometimes really ridiculous actions of the TSA, not screening their own staff is a serious breach of security.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1844 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6710 times:
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The official policy is unless flying on company business. All airline employees when flying must pass through TSA approved security screening. Going to work is another story, I dont have to pass through security to go onto the AOA or into the sterile area but I do have to swipe my SIDA badge.


The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9159 posts, RR: 29
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6672 times:

Every time each employee goes "air side" to the sterile area, they are screened. If by car, cars enter a check zone with barriers in front and behind, the cars are controlled as well. That is EU security standard, mandatory and was, BTW required by the US after 9/11.

Interesting to read, that in the own country, such standards do not seem to apply. This on top of the fact , that in the US it is far more easy to obtai n a false identity than it is in most Euuropean countries.

The EU should, in fact, require the US to apply the same standards or black list the States.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6360 times:



Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 11):
Going to work is another story, I dont have to pass through security to go onto the AOA or into the sterile area but I do have to swipe my SIDA badge.

Oh, I understand that completely. It is just when the TSA doesn't go through security when they are actually coming into work or coming back from their scheduled breaks in front of pax.... That is what I am driving at. Doing that in front of pax, not being checked is a huge  redflag 



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6268 times:



Quoting Qantas777 (Thread starter):
in the U.S it remains somewhat easy to board an aircraft without ever touching security and then going on the journey. Yikes.

You cannot board an airplane as a passenger in the US without going through security. Any airline employee that attempted to circumvent that process would not only lose their pass privileges, but also their job.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6264 times:



Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 14):
You cannot board an airplane as a passenger in the US without going through security.

While that is true, I still see airline employees at DEN still going around that rule.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 14):
Any airline employee that attempted to circumvent that process would not only lose their pass privileges, but also their job.

I have not heard anyone fired for that..............yet.....



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineLHR380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6251 times:



Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 11):
Going to work is another story, I dont have to pass through security to go onto the AOA or into the sterile area but I do have to swipe my SIDA badge.

At LHR, you swipe your ID, and go though a normal standard security check.


User currently offlineDoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6245 times:



Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 11):
The official policy is unless flying on company business.

I still have to be screened if riding in the back on company business. Fly the plane in, check in, exit sterile area just to come right back in and get screened, board airplane (that I flew in). Take 10 minute delay. Hope no missed their connections. #$%^&*(ing ridiculous.



When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6245 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
I have not heard anyone fired for that..............yet.....

Someone's not dumb enough to try it. It's really that simple. It's in the regulations at DL, I saw it with my own eyes when I got my flying privileges back in 2003. The only thing that's changed is the amount of time it takes to get your privileges (30 days as opposed to 90) and that there's a yearly fee attached to it (it was free in 2003).



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineGc2 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6098 times:

And yet I battle daily with US cargo pilots as we as European passenger pilots who winge and complain and don't understand why we have to search them etc.

User currently offline747438 From UK - England, joined Jan 2007, 837 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5081 times:



Quoting LHR380 (Reply 9):
Defiantly not the case in the UK, if at all, security is the same for Staff then as it is for a passenger.No differences at all when going from Landside to Airside.



Quoting LHR380 (Reply 16):
At LHR, you swipe your ID, and go though a normal standard security check.

Working in airport security, every time I pass landside to airside I go through the same security process as passengers and staff. This can be as many as 10 times a day.


User currently offlineLHR380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4988 times:



Quoting 747438 (Reply 22):
Working in airport security, every time I pass landside to airside I go through the same security process as passengers and staff. This can be as many as 10 times a day.

Yea, you take our spoons off us lol, they are classed as bad haha


User currently offline747438 From UK - England, joined Jan 2007, 837 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4755 times:



Quoting LHR380 (Reply 23):
Yea, you take our spoons off us lol, they are classed as bad haha

You know where to write to.
DfT, c/o etc etc  Wink


User currently offlineIad51fl From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 353 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4735 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
While that is true, I still see airline employees at DEN still going around that rule

Then you are in violation of your SIDA rules. It's your responsiblity to turn those people in.

As for screening airport employees... its never going to be 100%.

You have agents who run bags from the plane to baggage claim, have to check the belt, pick up leftover bags and go back to the plane to pick up additonal bags.

You have vehicles that get checked when they come onto the field, but what about the person/people in the vehicle? What keeps them from giving something to someone who "went through security"?

As most people say, the terrorists have won....and we are afraid of our own shadow. Lose the TSA agents and bring back the contract screeners, lose the liquids ban, dump the secure flight program, and bring back intelligence (both physically and mentally) to aviation security.

How many times do you walk into and out of your office door a day? How about we install TSA screeners at your office door, and make you go through all the patdowns, mag scans, etc everytime you walked into your office? Even though you have been an employee of the company for 15 years and your boss knows all about you, your family and friends.

If an employee really wanted to do something to cause a crash, there are many things they could do that physical security would not catch.

And now we know why agents are "insane".... sane people dont take jobs where you get yelled at, get spit on, enjoy daily eroding benefits and pay, and get looked at by people as the enemy who is out to destroy their vacations, bags, or little old grandmother.

Chris



Enjoying the view of KIAH approach end of 27. 29.9758015, -95.2695694
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4364 posts, RR: 19
Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4697 times:

It's a little ironic discussing security concerns on this site when just a few weeks ago numerous posters, some of which are Airline employees revealed in great detail the names of Hotels and exact locations where crewmembers stay on layovers..


The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
25 F9fan : I wonder if anyone ever thought of a suicide bomber getting hold of a BBJ or a Airbus corporate jet, especially if they were a well financed terrorist
26 JER757 : Rubbish, it is 100% in Europe, why can't the US do the same thing? At European commercial airports there is not a single person airside who hasn't be
27 Maverick623 : There was an incident a few months back where a US flight attendant smuggled an unloaded gun through security in PHL for a passenger, as crews there
28 Alphaomega : At some point down the line, we must have trust....you can go on all day saying who is screening the screeners and there will never be a 100% secure a
29 ItalianFlyer : THANK YOU!!!! Yet just a few days ago I was the first to arrive at the gate for a 757 segment at a MAJOR airport...the door to the jetbridge was open
30 Max Q : You are so right Italian Flyer, complacency is the enemy.
31 Burkhard : All screenings systems have holes like Swiss cheese. They are good against individuals. often obsessed or ill, but not against the forces behind "terr
32 Maverick623 : I had a FAM get in my face for asking who let him down into the airplane with no crew. I think it was because he was upset his cover might get blown,
33 TheCol : I don't know how it works elsewhere, but my main concern is with Transport Canada giving restricted area clearance to airport employees that aren't Ca
34 Burkhard : These will be cheaper workers - and in aviation the basic principle has got "money first".
35 LHR380 : Um, and??? Go to any major airport, and just mill around a few hotels, and you will see all the crew coming and going, not a state secret, Jet use th
36 PanHAM : If they are legal residents of Canada you cannot discriminate them. Whoever lives legally in a country has all the rights, usually except voting. If
37 FlyDeltaJets : Im reading about the EU from above, do the drivers of the vehicles that enter/exit the AOA get screened before entering? Do the have some sort of meta
38 LHR380 : Lorry's and the like go into one gate, and then a search takes place before going thru another gate and being airside.
39 Larshjort : What is a commercial airprt. I work at an airport which has 4-5 weekly charter flights in the summer time, I haven't once gone through a security che
40 Max Q : 'Bit of a give away' is probably what you meant to say and your missing the point. Obviously Flight crew's will be observed in Airports and Hotels, n
41 HAWK21M : Not sure whether its correct to post on a Public forum details on security loopholes from an Airline employee findings....It would be risky if misused
42 TheCol : In Canada, certain occupations requiring specific federal security clearances are restricted to Canadian citizens only. Burkhard makes a valid point
43 PanHAM : A government job requires citizenship as well here, that goes for the police, customs, etc. But the vast majority of ramp workers or others who need
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