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LH Might Cancel Widebody Aircraft On Order  
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7064 posts, RR: 4
Posted (5 years 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 19097 times:

According to the latest issue of the German news magazine Focus, LH is considering canceling some of their widebody aircraft that are set for delivery in 2010 a decision will be made this September.

Hope that does not mean the 747-8I ?


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
75 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 19069 times:



Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
Hope that does not mean the 747-8I ?

Do they have anything else on order? AFAIK they only have the 748 and a380 on order and all a333's and a346's have been delivered. EIther way, not good news. Does this mean that the decision for the 787/a350 will also be pushed further ahead?



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 19057 times:

Scheduled for 2010? That smells like deferrals, not like cancellations. And the year 2010 does not sound like 748I (the first is scheduled for late 2011), but A346 and A330 to me. A380 wont be touched as much as I know.

User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 19012 times:



Quoting Kappel (Reply 1):
Does this mean that the decision for the 787/a350 will also be pushed further ahead?

Even more so I think. Thre is no urgency for both types, the oldest A340 can easily serve another 5-8 years.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7064 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 18850 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 3):
Thre is no urgency for both types, the oldest A340 can easily serve another 5-8 years.

Still if they would order now, they won´t receive any of them in 5 - 8 years.
LH has other reason why they don´t order now, they are only interested in the larger -9/-900 variants of the 787/A350 and are waiting for more information for both types.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineSirtoby From Germany, joined Nov 2007, 378 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 18825 times:

I guess the 8 open A330-300 deliveries for Swiss are in question here.

[Edited 2009-09-02 03:44:03]

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9401 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 18732 times:

That'sno news really, it's been out a couple of weeks more or less, but not cancellation. They have said that they take everything as ordered this year and evaluate the positions in 2010. That will most likely be deferrals It all depends on the economic situation, if hell freezes and heaven caves in, they mmight be forced to cancel some.

OTH, they have 30 744s to be replaced for which 20 748 are ordered , delivery between 0311 and 0813 and 15 A380 for which 10 seems to have registrations already and the remaining are schedules originally for0113 to 0215.

On a one to one base, that gives a surplus of 5 A380 which might be deferred. But if things go really bad, they might shrink their L&D fleet, who knows.

At the same time, Fraport defers T3 for about 2 years as well, but will start building as soon as passenger numbers increase again. The T1 "0" extension was officially started yesterday.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 18558 times:



Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
Hope that does not mean the 747-8I ?

I think Boeing might have better ways to invest their resources then going all out for 25 odd ball -8i's. E.g. 787-9 and HGW, 737 replacement, 777 upgrade / replacement, C-130 replacement market. Wiser, more rational ways to invest a hard fought dollar.

About LH; the rest of the world obviously think they can do with 777-300ER/A346, 747-400 and A380 combinations.

But thats just my opinion. The public confirmations from LH and BAC on the Boeing 747-8i have become robotic and sparse IMO.


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 18406 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 3):
Thre is no urgency for both types, the oldest A340 can easily serve another 5-8 years.

Indeed, especially the a346's are very new. But as mentioned above, if they order a replacement now, it won't be delivered for at least 5 years, especially the a350.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 7):
The public confirmations from LH and BAC on the Boeing 747-8i have become robotic and sparse IMO.

Do they need to keep confirming this order? IMHO, as long as it's not cancelled, it's confirmed.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineAntonovman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 720 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 18237 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
At the same time, Fraport defers T3 for about 2 years as well, but will start building as soon as passenger numbers increase again. The T1 "0" extension was officially started yesterday.

What is the terminal 1 "0" extension ?
I worked in FRA for 10 years when terminal was was the only terminal
It would be interesting to me to see what its going to be like


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9401 posts, RR: 29
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 18219 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 7):
About LH; the rest of the world obviously think they can do with 777-300ER/A346, 747-400 and A380 combinations

LH needs the better cargo capacity of the 747s, but with the debacle of a possible night ban at FRA, LH might take a new look at this, since if they are forced to retire their main deck cargo fleet, the connectivity becomes less important and LH will lose a lot of potential cargo business for their pax fleet as well.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 17574 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
LH needs the better cargo capacity of the 747s,

How does the 744 offer better cargo capacity compared to the A346/77W?

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineBlackredgold From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 17428 times:



Quoting Antonovman (Reply 9):
What is the terminal 1 "0" extension ?
I worked in FRA for 10 years when terminal was was the only terminal
It would be interesting to me to see what its going to be like

The terminal extensions, officially called A-Plus, it the extension of the current A-Finger of Terminal 1 to the West. A number of buildings, including hangars, were torn down to make room for it .

The following link, although in German, has some pretty good pictures as you scroll further down.

http://www.deutsches-architektur-for...m.de/forum/showthread.php?p=233181


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7064 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 15799 times:



Quoting WINGS (Reply 11):


Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
LH needs the better cargo capacity of the 747s,

How does the 744 offer better cargo capacity compared to the A346/77W?

He was talking of the 747-8I......



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineAntonovman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 720 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 15773 times:

thanks for that link, very interesting. It brings back good memories for me

User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 15690 times:

LH might defer some planes, but I doubt they will cancel anything. If they cancel, I think it will only be small planes, because they'll need all the widebodies currently on order.

User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5568 posts, RR: 35
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 14604 times:



Quoting Sirtoby (Reply 5):
I guess the 8 open A330-300 deliveries for Swiss are in question here.

I don't think so. There are not anymore 8 open. From the first 9 ordered 333 for SWISS are already 4 delivered. I don't know about the two extra ordered (10+11).


User currently offlineNCB From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 14277 times:

I smell either B748i or A380.
If I had to choose, it'd be the B748i: resale values, parts inventories, crew training, etc... would just make it easier to order an all-A380 fleet.

If LH would cancel, it would have to happen this year, before any assembly starts on the aircraft.


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9169 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 14248 times:

They also have 20 options for the B 747-8

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31007 posts, RR: 86
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 14111 times:
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Well Boeing is so far along on the 747-8 Intercontinental in terms of design they'll finish it even if LH called them up today and canceled their order. Not to mention the 748's superior capacity and performance might be gaining some interest with customers sitting on a number of unfilled 77W orders.

And if FRA does install a night ban, that would improve the 748's chances of staying in LH's fleet since it's cargo volume is better than the A380s and it's lower capacity might be seen as less risky to cyclical demand curves and it can meet the same noise regulations the A380 does.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9401 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 13954 times:



Quoting WINGS (Reply 11):
How does the 744 offer better cargo capacity compared to the A346/77W?

I did not compare that to the 346/77W but the 748, LH needs both the higher freight and pax capy. But now, with the night ban... who knows.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 16):
I don't think so. There are not anymore 8 open

7 according to JP for delivery in 2010

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
And if FRA does install a night ban, that would improve the 748's chances of staying in LH's fleet since it's cargo volume is better than the A380s and it's lower capacity might be seen as less risky to cyclical demand curves and it can meet the same noise regulations the A380 does.

I would not bet on that because they will lose a lot of freight business in that case which will be routed otherwise due to lack of connectivity. LCAG and LH will have computer models based on empiric statistics.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineHeavierthanair From Switzerland, joined Oct 2000, 797 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 13867 times:

G'day

Maybe this has no meaning really, but I noticed there is not a single 747, whichever version, visible on any of these illustrations.

http://www.deutsches-architektur-for...m.de/forum/showthread.php?p=233181

There is talk about 4 gates with three air bridges each specifically for the A 380. OK there is one illustration showing a 747, the only plane visible that is not LH, with a reddish tail.

Well?  scratchchin 


Cheers

Peter



"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879
User currently offlineFRAspotter From United States of America, joined May 2004, 2352 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 13470 times:



Quoting Blackredgold (Reply 12):

Those are some great pics of the work going on. The artists pictures of the completed project look really nice, but I have one question. The artist shows the terminal full of LH birds and A380's. From what I heard, when Terminal 3 in completed, it will be the home of LH and star alliance. If that's the case, what will T1 and T2 be used for?



"Drunks run stop signs. Stoners wait for them to turn green."
User currently offlineLXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2122 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 13182 times:



Quoting Sirtoby (Reply 5):
I guess the 8 open A330-300 deliveries for Swiss are in question here.



Quoting ZRH (Reply 16):
I don't think so. There are not anymore 8 open. From the first 9 ordered 333 for SWISS are already 4 delivered. I don't know about the two extra ordered (10+11).

LX is scheduled to get 5 more A333's next year and the optional 10th and 11th aircraft were scheduled for first quarter 2011. There is no reason why LH should cancel those additional aircraft considering they will first e delivered in Q1 2011 and by the latest for the summer timetable 2011 I see again growth potential hence those extra frames would be needed.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31007 posts, RR: 86
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 13157 times:
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Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):
I would not bet on that because they will lose a lot of freight business in that case which will be routed otherwise due to lack of connectivity. LCAG and LH will have computer models based on empiric statistics.

Would the ban be absolute, or would quieter planes be allowed to operate?

If the latter, LH cargo could move to 747-8Fs, 777Fs and A330-200Fs from their current fleet.


25 KC135TopBoom : But the 28 B-747-8Is on order, plus the 20 LH options, and 80, or so B-747-8Fs on order have already paid for the program, haven't they (didn't Boein
26 NicoEDDF : Yes, the ban is absolute, according to the most recent ruling.
27 Airbazar : It would be pretty embarassing if they couldn't turn a profit on an improved derivative of an existing model. The funny thing is that the same argume
28 Zvezda : I agree that deferral seems more likely than cancellation. I don't believe that LH (or any healthy airline) would defer A330 orders in the present eco
29 Carls : Based on what I have read the A380 will have more commonality with the current Airbus fleet LH flies than the 748 with the 744. When you say it doesn
30 SandroZRH : No. The A333s are in LX's orderbooks, not LH's, and they're being paid for by LX, not LH. They were originally ordered by LH but have been fully tran
31 PanHAM : That is architecture and has nothing to do with LH ffleet planning yes, judges decisions are not based on what can be in the future but on how they i
32 Allegro : Yeah, right .. after spending a billion or so and then producing nothing. Sounds brilliant. But your calls for cancellation have not. Get over it. Ye
33 ZRH : You are right. That is what I also wanted to say. Although LH is a 100% share-holder, LX is still a company of its own and, as you said, the 333 are
34 LHPII : You've heard it absolutely wrong........LH stays at T1, with possible expansion to T2........non Star allaince carriers go to T3
35 LXA340 : Are there currently 9 or 11 planes in the orderbook of LX (of course minus the 4 that were already delivered)?
36 Flyglobal : I also see only a slight stretch in delivery, if at all. They will get 5 A380 in 2010 and probably another 5 in 2011. The other 5 to 15, they didn't o
37 AirNz : As inconvenient as it may be for you to actually know a few facts, I think you should refresh yourself on certain other things Boeing have also since
38 GlobeEx : Well, you have to differentiate between airlines woh for example still use older models like the MD-11 or perhaps even the B767 and are aiming at sti
39 Post contains links PlaneInsomniac : For those who can read German, a related news item is actually on the Focus website: http://www.focus.de/finanzen/boerse/...t-bei-flugzeugkauf_aid_431
40 Post contains images Keesje : Can't remeber. They took enormous charges on the program twice. Didn't Bell say something on a loss position recently? Maybe it would be a welcome pr
41 GlobeEx : I guess you don't work in the industry. If you were you would know that support and maintenance actually is where the money comes from!
42 KL911 : So true, that's why I don't get why Boeing doesn't give up and concentrate on a 737 replacement, or 777 update. Like someone said before, why have mi
43 Keesje : In my industry the OEM's do the SB's, maintenance prescriptions, often MRO.. The industry avoids maintenance. Do you believe in LHT making money and
44 KL911 : But not when only 25+ planes are in service worldwide..... Then support and maintenance becomes really, really expensive and rare...
45 Stitch : They did it for the 747SP, the 737-100, the 767-400ER and the 747-400ER... *shrug*
46 KL911 : Stitch, That might have worked years ago, but not in this economic climate. ( And how was the resale value of those mentioned types?)
47 Post contains images Stitch : If there is any airplane LH should not have ordered, much less continued to hold, it's the 747-8 Intercontinental. LH could easily have made their ent
48 Post contains images Allegro : 100 VLA's are not a handful ... that actually is quite impressive for this derivative ... contrary of course to what many may think. Remember this is
49 Fcogafa : I would bet on it being the A380's that are deferred or cancelled, several other airlines have been deferring them, so why not DLH?
50 Ikramerica : Well it's 100% certain that LH will not take delivery of any 747-8I in 2010. No debate there.
51 Airbazar : I don't think that's the strategy at all. For such a relatively small subfleet it makes little sense to have 2 bases unless they plan on shifting the
52 PanHAM : not only in the aircraft manufacturing industry. usualyl spares support has a higher turnover than OE sales LHT is a completely separately managed an
53 Sirtoby : Airbus lists 11 on order by Swiss and 3 delivered until July 31 - I guess the 4th was delivered in August, so there would be 7 open now. Thanks! As L
54 Post contains images Keesje : Lufthansa Technik is a 100 per cent daughter company of Lufthansa. They have 1 bottom line. If a customer and Lufthansa need the same spare engine, t
55 Ikramerica : Actually, I don't know if it's 3500 pounds overweight. It might be more than that, and likely is. What the report says is that they have found 3500 p
56 Keesje : I think you are right but don't have further details.
57 PanHAM : that is common knowledge No, each company is a wholly owned subsidiary of the aviation concern, but legaly a separate company that has to publish its
58 BHMNONREV : This is what I understand as well, all non-Star carriers will move to T3 and all Star Alliance long haul (UA, SQ, AC, CO, US, etc..) save for LH will
59 AustrianZRH : Which basically is LH as well...
60 Burkhard : Also doubt, so I trust they always have two spare engines.
61 PanHAM : what I know from this business is that the spares usually belong to the owners / operators of the A/C and are usually strategically located within th
62 LY777 : I hope they will not cancel the 748I
63 MBJ2000 : Yay! Let's hope this will come true! The 748i would be a great sight in MUC...
64 Carls : Stich, I think that the 737-100 share spares with the rest of the 737 Family and the same apply to the 747 SP and 747-100/200/300, 762/3/4. 744 and 7
65 Stitch : I'm confident that a good portion of the 747-8 will share components with previous 747 family members.
66 Thorben : How about sharing parts with the 787? At least they'll both have GEnx engines.
67 NorCal : You forgot the a-net rules regarding the 747-8: 1. The 747-8 is entirely 40 year old technology and parts when compared to the A380. They basically t
68 Carls : Technically it is a 40 years design, regardless you like it or not. However wings, software, interior design are totally new and has no commonality w
69 Kappel : They do have the same cockpit, with a few tweeks for the 748. Don't know how long it takes for a pilot to convert from 744 to 748, but this surely he
70 Post contains links and images GlobeEx : No I don't and I'm sure you are able to understand what I was saying. I only said that LHT will eventually gain some pretty additional income by the
71 RIX : - technically, that's exactly what Stitch is saying, (in case you didn't notice you don't disagree ...)
72 Allegro : It is worth it ... the plane is just to West of Terminal 1 on the airport road (Erdinger Allee?) and the Viewing Pyramid is right next it. Not sure h
73 XT6Wagon : No, funny enough not even all A300 share a common fuselage. They learned alot of good things when making the A310, and the A300-600 is very much a di
74 Post contains links Airbazar : If the weather is nice it's about a 10 minute walk from the terminal. http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=4...312&spn=0.001793,0.003219&t=h&z=18 There
75 GlobeEx : They easiest way is to simply take the metro towards the city. But don't worry. It's just one stop to the "besucherpark" (visitor centre). So like a
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