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DOT Approved DL-DJ Codeshare, Defers V Australia  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25404 posts, RR: 49
Posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6477 times:

In an interesting move the DOT has granted authority for the proposed Delta-Virgin Blue codeshare effective immediately, however has deferred action on Delta's request for authorization to codeshare with V Australia, PBA, and PBNZ as those carriers have to receive required code-share safety audits.

OST-2009-0156


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7616 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6354 times:

If the DOT had apporoved a DL-VA codeshare, I wonder if that would have ment the end of LAX-SYD on DL metal.


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3297 posts, RR: 35
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6273 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1):
If the DOT had apporoved a DL-VA codeshare, I wonder if that would have ment the end of LAX-SYD on DL metal.

No.


User currently offlineFlyibaby From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1017 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6271 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1):
If the DOT had apporoved a DL-VA codeshare, I wonder if that would have ment the end of LAX-SYD on DL metal.

I don't think so - its a market they wanted to be in for far too long, and it is one of those status flghts to have in your route network. I look at it like this, DL began the route during one of the worst declines in memory for the economy. I believe this flight is staying put with or without a codeshare.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6216 times:

The whole point of the Virgin -DL agreement is to operate a JOINT VENTURE... not just a codeshare.

DL and Virgin both know they are underdogs in the US-OZ market. By combining forces they will gain a large enough mass to be competitive... having one carrier drop out of the market after the JV is approved is not what is needed to ensure success in the market.

Neither DL or Virgin is leaving the market. They very well might coordinate reducing services during the most offpeak periods but that is far different from thinking one or the other will put out.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6475 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6156 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1):
If the DOT had apporoved a DL-VA codeshare, I wonder if that would have ment the end of LAX-SYD on DL metal.

Why on earth would you think that, other than to ruffle a few feathers?


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7616 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5811 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 5):
Why on earth would you think that, other than to ruffle a few feathers?

Jesus Christ Old Timer, it was just a thought.

Alot of airlines codeshare with others so they dont have to fly particular destinations. All of them do it. Thats the whole point of Codesharing isnt it?

And we all know about the situation with the LAX-SYD route right now. Having someone else do the flying but putting your code on it is a way to make money with minimal risk.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9425 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5797 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1):

If the DOT had apporoved a DL-VA codeshare, I wonder if that would have ment the end of LAX-SYD on DL metal.

IMHO If the JV/Code-share does get the ok then I believe DL will end doing most of the BNE/MEL flights with the 77Ls and VA will take over 99% of the SYD flights with the 77Ws. The only route that i believe that DL will not give up is 1x daily LAX-SYD. Thats a name thing IMO and DL will keep it. Other than that I believe most of the SYD flights(look into the furture not just now) will be on VA birds and DL will get the smaller/longer markets. I do believe DL will start LAX-MEL next(if the JV gets the OK).



yep.
User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8902 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5789 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 7):
IMHO If the JV/Code-share does get the ok then I believe DL will end doing most of the BNE/MEL flights with the 77Ls and VA will take over 99% of the SYD flights with the 77Ws. The only route that i believe that DL will not give up is 1x daily LAX-SYD. Thats a name thing IMO and DL will keep it. Other than that I believe most of the SYD flights(look into the furture not just now) will be on VA birds and DL will get the smaller/longer markets. I do believe DL will start LAX-MEL next(if the JV gets the OK).

I'm not so sure they would do that just on a name basis. Look at JFK-CDG - a key international route only served by AF metal, but the JV allows DL to still share in the profits. I wouldn't be shocked if that happened on LAX-SYD - no need for a DL 777, a VA 77W, a UA 744 and QF 744s/380s on that route. The market would be best served by cutting the DL 777, reallocating it to the MEL/BNE routes (where a 77W is overkill) and sharing in the profits.

DL cares about the profits first and foremost - not having their metal directly operating into Sydney.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25274 posts, RR: 85
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5780 times:
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Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 7):
will keep it. Other than that I believe most of the SYD flights(look into the furture not just now) will be on VA birds and DL will get the smaller/longer markets. I do believe DL will start LAX-MEL next(if the JV gets the OK).

How much service do you think Australia can stand? It isn't a limitless market.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9425 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5768 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 9):
How much service do you think Australia can stand? It isn't a limitless market.

I believe VA wants to fly to SFO and SEA. I know VA wants to fly LAX-MEL and BNE. I also believe that LAX-SYD will end up getting more flights from a joint VA/DL. I really don't see UA staying in the LAX-SYD market(now that they don't have a codeshare on the OZ end).

Anyone think DL may try to start a codeshare with VX? AS gives them flights to SEA and PDX but VX would give them BOS and SFO flights.



yep.
User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8902 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5726 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 10):

I believe VA wants to fly to SFO and SEA. I know VA wants to fly LAX-MEL and BNE. I also believe that LAX-SYD will end up getting more flights from a joint VA/DL. I really don't see UA staying in the LAX-SYD market(now that they don't have a codeshare on the OZ end).

UA could most likely get away with flying a 777 on LAX-SYD, which would help. While they don't have any real connective feed at SYD, they do have a solid base of FFers out of Australia, and there are *A flyers with NZ in Australia as well. I don't see UA going anywhere on LAX-SYD for a while.

With a JV, it will allow VA and DL to best mix and match flights. SEA-SYD could be a good 77L route to start out - I think starting that with a 77W would be a bit too much. If it develops with feed from AS, then it could go 77W, but not till then.

It could come down to something like VA flying SYD-LAX/SFO on the 77W, DL having LAX-MEL/BNE, SEA-SYD and potentially a MEL-SFO flight if there's a demand for it.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25274 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5720 times:
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Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 10):
I believe VA wants to fly to SFO and SEA. I know VA wants to fly LAX-MEL and BNE. I also believe that LAX-SYD will end up getting more flights from a joint VA/DL. I really don't see UA staying in the LAX-SYD market(now that they don't have a codeshare on the OZ end).

As we know from SYD-LAX, yields are already in the toilet.

As William Swelbar said today, can airlines really afford to have a presence everywhere and pricing power nowhere?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5722 times:

I've been checking loads every now and again on DeltaNet and they seem to be doing pretty well on the route, including the seats up front. Things have started to drop off slightly now that summer is over, but still fairly respectable. I think that this JV will help both sides capture more traffic, and I sincerely hope that it works out well for both sides. I suppose many of us on here will be keeping a close eye on things.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25404 posts, RR: 49
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5664 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 10):
I know VA wants to fly LAX-MEL and BNE

It not that they want to, they are.

LAX-BNE commenced April 8th, and LAX-MEL scheduled for December 1st.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAnonms From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 620 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5636 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 10):
Anyone think DL may try to start a codeshare with VX? AS gives them flights to SEA and PDX but VX would give them BOS and SFO flights.

If DL codeshared with VX on all the intra-California flights, I would be so excited assuming I can still get CI mileage on those codeshared flights. XD



This is my signature.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25404 posts, RR: 49
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5633 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 12):
As William Swelbar said today, can airlines really afford to have a presence everywhere and pricing power nowhere?

 checkmark  I've shaken my head at the concept that an airline needs to be in every market.

I'd rather see an airline serve a core network well and profitably, while letting various partnerships help fill out the blank spots.

I really think its a silly(and costly) pursuit to plant a flag or insist on being a one stop airline answer for all market segments.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9425 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5617 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 12):

Right because LAX-SYD will stay just the way it is.  Yeah sure

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
LAX-BNE commenced April 8th, and LAX-MEL scheduled for December 1st.

Ah. Didn't know BNE started. MEL is going to be 3x weekly IIRC same for BNE?

Quoting Anonms (Reply 15):


If DL codeshared with VX on all the intra-California flights, I would be so excited assuming I can still get CI mileage on those codeshared flights. XD

So LAX-SFO and SFO-SNA? lol I would much rather see DL and UA codeshare for LAX feed.(to bad that wont happen) IIRC DL still codeshares with MQ on it Intra-cali network.



yep.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25274 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5604 times:
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Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 17):
Right because LAX-SYD will stay just the way it is.  

I'm not sure what you mean, but my answer would be probably.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5525 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 17):
Quoting Anonms (Reply 15):

If DL codeshared with VX on all the intra-California flights, I would be so excited assuming I can still get CI mileage on those codeshared flights. XD

Other than AS, VX would be logical, except that they just completed a move from T6 to T3 at LAX, and the SFO operation is nowhere near DL at SFO (until T2 is completed). Then there's the mess of the misconnect bags at LAX which will happen.

So LAX-SFO and SFO-SNA? lol I would much rather see DL and UA codeshare for LAX feed.(to bad that wont happen) IIRC DL still codeshares with MQ on it Intra-cali network.

Except that Eagle doesn't fly SFO, OAK or SMF to LAX. DL really needs to feed it's LAX hub from SFO with it's own metal as in LAS-LAX. So what if 2 or 3 flights per day don't make a goldmine. If DL wants to fill its LAX international flights, it can't continue to ignore the population of NorCal, where the Bay Area/Sacramento population approaches 10M.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9425 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5467 times:



Quoting CV880 (Reply 19):
Except that Eagle doesn't fly SFO, OAK or SMF to LAX. DL really needs to feed it's LAX hub from SFO with it's own metal as in LAS-LAX. So what if 2 or 3 flights per day don't make a goldmine. If DL wants to fill its LAX international flights, it can't continue to ignore the population of NorCal, where the Bay Area/Sacramento population approaches 10M.

I agree 100%. Matter of fact im not for the AScodeshare at all. I think its away to them to get a DCI carrier with 737s. They will pick up on it some day. (and whats sad. LAX-LAS does pretty good.)



yep.
User currently offlineAznCSA4QF744ER From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 692 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5449 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 10):
I really don't see UA staying in the LAX-SYD market(now that they don't have a codeshare on the OZ end).

Who said they don't? UA still have code-share with Virgin Blue and Air New Zealand.

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 11):
UA could most likely get away with flying a 777 on LAX-SYD, which would help. While they don't have any real connective feed at SYD, they do have a solid base of FFers out of Australia, and there are *A flyers with NZ in Australia as well. I don't see UA going anywhere on LAX-SYD for a while.

Once the B777 is updated with the new seats don't be surprised to see SFO-SYD on one. Big grin

Quoting Anonms (Reply 15):
If DL codeshared with VX on all the intra-California flights,

The only one and all intra-Cali flying that VX operate is SNA-SFO.


User currently offlineNickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5421 times:



Quoting AznCSA4QF744ER (Reply 21):
Who said they don't? UA still have code-share with Virgin Blue and Air New Zealand.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...share-partnership-with-united.html


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9425 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5408 times:



Quoting AznCSA4QF744ER (Reply 21):
The only one and all intra-Cali flying that VX operate is SNA-SFO.

and SFO-LAX.

Quoting AznCSA4QF744ER (Reply 21):
Once the B777 is updated with the new seats don't be surprised to see SFO-SYD on one.

I thought at one time UA was going to fly the T7 on SFO-SYD?



yep.
User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3128 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5317 times:



Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 11):
UA could most likely get away with flying a 777 on LAX-SYD, which would help



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 23):
I thought at one time UA was going to fly the T7 on SFO-SYD?

Please correct me if I am wrong... but I believe that UA's 777s do not have the range for these flights. I am not sure of the differences between their 777-200ERs and say Deltas or V Australias 777-300ERs... but I believe when they slimmed down AKL from 744 to 772.... one of the biggest problems was that their 772 had a large payload restriction... enough to be unprofitable on the LAX-AKL segment.

Then again, I might be completely off, however I would like to hear about UA's 777s and their feasibility on SFO/LAX-SYD.

'902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
25 ALBNWA4 : Agreed. If this works and well will it eventually force one of the major players Cough-ua-Cough to pull out or seek an agreement of their own? At wha
26 Bobnwa : If you were talking about a joint venture the you might be right. a codeshare is no big deal.
27 Jetlanta : Which is all true. Of course, you are operating under the assumption that Delta's LAX-SYD route has been an exercise in vanity from the beginning. I
28 DeltaL1011man : Your right. I shouldn't assume. But seeing that its still going at 3x daily 320 and the flights are pretty full one can assume something must be righ
29 Jetlanta : If airlines canceled all the routes that lose money, the legacies wouldn't have much of a route system left at the moment.
30 United1 : This summer UA planned on (and actually announced) using the 777s between LAX and SYD however decided to keep the 744 on the route. AFAIK UA hasn't c
31 DeltaL1011man : I didn't say cancal. They could always down grade it/make it 2x daily/1x daily. While your right to a point, DL doesn't keep non-hub P2P routes aroun
32 Anonms : And SFO-SAN (which is the one that matters more to me haha).
33 ZK-NBT : It was SFO-SYD they announed would go 772, they then changed it back to 744s before the 772 started the route.
34 AznCSA4QF744ER : It was UA863/870 that was announced for the B777-200ER. However, it was postpone due competition with QF on their interior cabin. I believe the new r
35 WorldTraveler : LAS is one of the top destinations in the west but receives very little nonstop int'l service because it is typically lower yielding. LAS can, howeve
36 MaverickM11 : DL has proved that's not the case with nearly one out of every two routes it's launched in the last three years, and most of those were out of DL/NW
37 Jetlanta : Mav, care to share where you get the stats for this? Even if it is true, if more than 50% of new markets work in THIS environment, I think the record
38 MaverickM11 : They've started about 120 routes, and about 60 of them have been canned or "seasonally suspended". Imagine how much stronger it'd be with a coherent
39 Sxf24 : So? With big risks, comes big rewards. Further, these aircraft largely came from Florida, which is the absolute worst place to use them. Would you su
40 WorldTraveler : My, how we have missed you. Where have you been? Considering that other carriers have grown little if any whether by merger or internal growth, the f
41 MaverickM11 : What growth? Transatlantic and Transpacific are down YOY. Perceived misstep? They've failed at at least 50% of the adds they've made recently. They h
42 WorldTraveler : Yes, because DL has enough redundancy in its network that it can drop routes like ATL-BOM and still serve the city. Drop ATL-PVG and still serve PVG
43 MaverickM11 : ATLPVG becoming NRTPVG is not growth. That's shuffling resources. In fact that's the opposite of growth.
44 Sxf24 : All the new routes that are not suspended or cancelled...
45 WorldTraveler : DL/NW has added DTW-PVG in addition to NRT-PVG which remains unchanged... and you know it.
46 Bobnwa : You are kidding right? Aren't you ignoring one other route to PVG?
47 Mariner : Mr. Swelbar's question was about pricing power, not growth. Delta financial performance may be "in front of the other network carriers", but that is
48 AirNz : And your point being exactly what? Are you really so pathetically fixated on such unimportance that you ignore they are still only a 3rd rate carrier
49 MaverickM11 : Doesn't change the story--it's still a reduction in ASMs from dailiy ATLPVG.
50 OA412 : 3rd rate in what way exactly? I don't know of many 3rd rate carriers with DL's route network, safety record, etc., etc. When exacty was the last time
51 Bobnwa : Yes but I am sure even you will agree that going from ATL-PVG to NRT-PVG AND DTW-PVG is an increase in ASMs. Come on now, admit you were wrong on tha
52 The Coachman : This makes no sense. Currently (or at least soon with the Northern winter season) DL is 6 x weekly and VA is 6 x weekly from SYD-LAX vv. You're sayin
53 Tayser : a JV between VA and DL operating a direct daily non-stop MEL-LAX would steal a lot of customers from the shiteful one stop via SYD UA service and I wo
54 Evan767 : What?? LAX-LAS does absolutely terrible for Delta. These flights go out consistently with 100+ empty seats operated with NW 320's. The only reason th
55 LAXintl : VA1/VA2 actualy is daily for most of the Northern Winter except for Feb 10 - Mar 27th 2010.
56 WorldTraveler : The simple facts are that Delta : - is the world's largest airline - is the only 6 continent US airline and one of less than a dozen in the world - ha
57 Mariner : I thought the discussion was about pricing power, and thus, by extension, profitability. mariner
58 MaverickM11 : A daily ATLPVG to a 4 weekly DTWPVG + daily NRTPVG? That's a decrease in ASMs. You can argue it hasn't been daily in a long time, but that still pres
59 Bobnwa : Yes, I will argue that it hasn't been daily in along time, so it is not a reduction. Please name the plethora of carriers who are using all their new
60 MaverickM11 : The original premise was that DL was growing by leaps and bounds, which is simply not true; in fact its Transpacific capacity is down versus 2008, 20
61 MaverickM11 : I think everyone, save US, is using a bigger percentage than DL. Even AA at 50% is more than 11/35. At least the planning department got that memo, e
62 DeltaL1011man : Lets not forget that DTW-PVG should be daily and on a 744.....its 5x weekly on a 77E. The first to flights look pretty good every time I check. The l
63 WorldTraveler : Pricing power is absolutely tied to size in the airline industry. There are numerous studies that have demonstrated it. Revenue and profitability are
64 Mariner : In which case, (i) the studies are wrong or (ii) of the three airlines at DEN, the wrong one is profitable. mariner
65 Bobnwa : So in roundabout way, you are saying that no US airline is operating all its China route authorities. Why is was that so hard to drag out. I didn't u
66 AirNz : Then please explain what exactly it does mean.....and "in the Boardrooms of companies that DL is seeking business"? From what positions (as 'insiders
67 MaverickM11 : Not quite. CO is. No I wouldn't. I wouldn't have added all the capacity in the first place that DL ended up hacking away anyway.
68 WorldTraveler : You still have not separated costs and revenue. UA should have the pricing power but because they are undercut on costs, they do not have pricing pow
69 DeltaL1011man : Give me a break dude. Other being able to say it, it means nothing. You really think that when it comes down to a contract that the company is going
70 LAXintl : Man I though the topic of this thread was Australia codeshare, not about China, state of US industry or Delta's is bigger then someone else, etc....
71 Srbmod : Since this thread has gone way off topic with so many off-topic posts (This thread is about the DOT approving the DJ/DL codeshare and deferring the V
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