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Boeing 727: 25 Years Out Of Production  
User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4637 posts, RR: 12
Posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 20015 times:

Hi everyone,

After so much going on with the retirement of the A300 at American, I thought it would also be nice to post a tribute to the venerable three-holer since it has now been out of production for 25 years. The last of the 1831 built 727's rolled out of the Renton plant in September of 1984, a 727-200F built for Fed Ex.

Enjoy the video:


For those who are interested, here is the link to the 727 page in my website:


Gone from most operators, but still in the heart of some aviation enthusiasts including myself.

Ben Soriano

Ben Soriano
103 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 4979 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 19773 times:

Thanx for this. The 727 is certainly a very nice bird. I have been lucky and been a very happy passenger on the 727 several times:

Pan Am x 4

Mexicana x 2

Sterling European x 2

American Airlines x 2

User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1601 posts, RR: 23
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 19759 times:

My father was a captain of B727,I was very lucky to ride the jumpseat countless times on that beautiful bird.I can say easily it had a great influence that I became an airline pilot today.We sure miss those .83 mach cruise speeds nowadays.

follow me on my facebook page" captain wing's journey log"
User currently offlineVhqpa From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 1607 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 19681 times:

Was the 727-200LR ever an official variant or was it just an internal AN term for a higher MTOW Adv. model with an extra fuel tank. I can't seem to find anything else mentioning it outside of AN. AN had 4 built in 1981 designed to be able to do SYD-PER nonstop with a full payload against headwinds something the Adv. model couldn't do year round. But apart from that I don't know if anyone else brough this variant.

But yes the 727 was a great I only can remember one flight and that was in December 1994 from DRW-ADL on one of these AN LR models.


"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4188 posts, RR: 36
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 19595 times:

I love the 727 and its certainly one of the greatest aircrafts ever and esthetically
appealing! I flew the 727 on LACSA, Iberia, Mexicana, United
regards  airplane  wave 

A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offlineN707PA From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 19525 times:

It is interesting to note that the first 727-200F's built were the last planes off of the production line.

User currently offlineDTW757 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1624 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 19507 times:

TOL has them daily fortunately.


I flew on many 727's over the years including Piedmont, United, American and TWA. I even got lucky enough to fly on the 100 series with TWA in Europe 20 years ago.

Hopefully it's a long time until we see the last 727 flying.

User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9823 posts, RR: 64
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 19281 times:
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Here is a shot I took several years ago of the last 727 built

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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Royal S King

User currently offlinePeterpuck From Canada, joined Jun 2004, 323 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 19261 times:

From a pilots perspective it's a real joy to fly the 727. A real pilots airplane. I love when the autopilot is MEL'd and you hand fly it at .87 mach. (as long as it's a one hour leg any longer can get pretty tiring)

User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8360 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 19206 times:

And to think Boeing nearly built a twin-engined 727 powered by two Pratt & Whitney PW2037 or Rolls-Royce RB.211-535 engines. That model would likely have extended the production life of the 727 well into the 1990's.

User currently offlineN405MX From Mexico, joined May 2004, 1378 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 19008 times:

Lovely plane, the best plane, very noble (for ops) you can loaded with almost everything, really miss it on the skies, fortunately I have the chance to see those "viejo sietes" here in MTY from Capital Cargo that send them weekly.

Best Regards

Life is what happens when you have other plans.....
User currently offlineTISTPAA727 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 344 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 18789 times:
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Growing up I always looked forward to nonstops from St. Thomas to JFK on Pan Am. Great ride and even better looks! Definitely miss seeing those birds flying around.

Don't sweat the little things.
User currently offlineManfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 18455 times:

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 9):
And to think Boeing nearly built a twin-engined 727

Quoting N405MX (Reply 10):
you can loaded with almost everything

Quoting Wing (Reply 2):
We sure miss those .83 mach cruise speeds

Truly a testament to one of the best birds to ever grace our skies. This just goes to prove, they don't make them like they used to. I've always considered the 757 as the 727 replacement. The two go hand in hand for some reason.

Just remember to always appreciate every time you see a 757...they are indeed the last best jet of our lifetime, and only because the 727 existed.

and some eye candy:



[Edited 2009-09-05 11:27:50]

757: The last of the best
User currently offlineB727fan From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 354 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 18366 times:

I really miss flying with them, sitting right behind the wing! They sure are a classical beauty.

User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 15338 posts, RR: 45
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 18064 times:
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Active 727s are pretty rare in Europe these days. Although I did see this beauty recently:

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Photo © Steve Brimley

To see regular 727s, you have to go further afield:
South Africa

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Photo © Steve Brimley
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Photo © Steve Brimley


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Steve Brimley
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Photo © Steve Brimley

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Photo © Steve Brimley
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Brimley

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineJoseKMLB From United States of America, joined May 2008, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 17755 times:

My fav bird ALL TIME and I would always look for a 727 when I was flying to make sure I booked that flight. Mostly ATL-AUS on DLs 27s. When they did an equip sub to bring it here it was like gold to me I really loved that plane.

User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1621 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 17688 times:

I've only ever ridden on a 727 one time, from MSP-DCA on Northwest, about 10 years ago. My recollection was of a pretty shallow 'cruise climb' over Wisconsin, not the steep deck angle we see on the Airbus 320 or Boeing 737.

I am tempted to take a jumpseat ride on FedEx while I still can. I did it on the DC-8 a few years ago at UPS just because I wanted to ride on one before they were all retired. Worth it!

User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4660 posts, RR: 31
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 17472 times:

One of the greatest airplanes ever made. At medium-size US markets like my home ROC, the 727 was the largest scheduled passenger airplane flown for many years. During the years it operated there--the mid 1960's to 2003--its economics made it suitable for all sorts of flights: nonstop hub flights, milk runs, and even many PTP flights to big business centers like NYC and DC. Its six-across cabin gave pax comfort on a wide variety of flights. I was always happy to see that a flight was on a 727--and I flew on countless 727's on many carriers over the years. Scores of US markets that today are mostly populated by RJ's saw many big, comfy 727's during the 70's and 80's.

At an airport that has never broken 3 million pax per year, 727's were flown by every carrier that operated them because they were so versatile. At ROC, AA, UA, EA, US/ AL, PI, RC, PE, NW, CO, and DL all operated 727s at one time or another. I flew them on most of those carriers.

My favorite 727 paint scheme remains the UA 70's and 80's colors, after their tweaking in the late 80's that lowered the cheatline a bit and enlarged the titles.


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Felix Goetting

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Felix Goetting

Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlineAncientPelican From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 17373 times:

What a great aircraft! My first jet flight was on a Pan AM 727-100, After that, I've flown it on American, Eastern, Delta, Northwest, Western, Braniff, United, TWA, Alaska, Piedmont, Air Canada, Mexicana, Air1, Trans Caribbean, Air France, Lufthansa, Lan Chile, Ansett, Republic, Air Jamaica, Continental, and at least another half dozen carriers I've forgotten!

User currently offlineType-Rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 17222 times:

In the late 60's early 70's these were quite ubiquitous aircraft all over the place. I considered them boring just as we consider the 737 today as boring. From a passenger standpoint, I loved to fly on them. I never thought I'd see the day when they would be rare!

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 29444 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 17066 times:

Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 19):
In the late 60's early 70's these were quite ubiquitous aircraft all over the place. I considered them boring just as we consider the 737 today as boring. From a passenger standpoint, I loved to fly on them. I never thought I'd see the day when they would be rare!

Agreed. Most trips in the U.S. in the 60s and 70s usually involved at least one 727. The best part of flying a 727 was watching the wing disassemble itself on approach/landing due to the complex flaps/spoilers/slats.

From memory, my 727 flights were on CP Air, Air Canada, United, American, Delta, Continental, Northwest, Northeast, TWA, Pan Am, Eastern, Western, Braniff, Hughes Airwest, PSA, Air France, Alitalia, Lufthansa, TAP, South African, Ansett Australia. Interestingly, half of those airlines no longer exist.

User currently offlineTtailfan From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 16686 times:

The 727 has always been my favorite. There is nothing more graceful looking then seeing a 727 in flight IMHO.

But its intended replacement is my second favorite...the 757, even though I'm a t-tail fan.

I haven't seen a 727 since 2002. Not in motion anyway. Bummer.

User currently offlineTaxPilot From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 102 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 16688 times:

Fantastic airplane. I got my turbojet Flight Engineers ticket on a United 727. In those days the training was all in the sim, but we had to rent 20 minutes time on a United training flight to get our FAA check rides. Later everything was done in the simulator.  Smile

User currently offlineSDQ777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 16648 times:

Does Boeing still support the remaining 727's?

User currently offlineFlyabunch From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 521 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 16515 times:

In my first 20 years of flying, probably more than 70% of the flights were on 727's. My favorites were, of course, those flown by PSA. The smile was always the best. I can recall also flying on United, Bonanza, Delta, Piedmont, Eastern, Western, Continental, Hughes Airwest, and TWA.

My last 727 flight was on United TPA-DEN about 10 years ago. I remember thinking that I wouldn't get a chance to do it much longer and I was right. Took a seat behind the wing so I could watch that wonderful wing action.

Oh, and American

[Edited 2009-09-05 16:44:40]

25 SKY1 : Good idea, Ben. No doubt, it deserves a tribute. The B-727 was a legendary aircraft and very good & reliable plane in its time! CP Air ...my God, It
26 Beechnut : Amazing. Not too many years ago (or so I like to convince myself), I'd be saying "not another 727!" when flying somewhere. It's now pretty much imposs
27 Viscount724 : Bonanza is the only one in that group that didn't operate the 727. You probably flew on one of their 4 DC-9-10s. They were the first U.S. local servi
28 Post contains images PSA53 : My favorite painted 727's,to no ones surprise, PSA,Pacific Southwest Airlines of California which I'm very humbled to US for keeping the smiler flying
29 FiestaFlight : I agree w Type-Rated's comment. In the 70's and 80's, I was actually kind of bummed getting the 727 all of time as well. Now I can't believe I even th
30 Usafret : Flew many times on 727s, Pan Am FRF down to Ankara Turkey in 1977, many TWAs, Eastern, Northwest, and Delta. Up to at least 1997 Delta offered 727s fr
31 Davescj : I rember flying 727 on DL, UA and Pan AM. I think my last 727 was in 1989 or so -- pan am MIA -- DFW. A friend works for FEDEX and flies 727. She trul
32 United Airline : How many did UA have? 75? Any B 727 operators still? US used to fly LAX-SFO with a B 727 in the 80s right? I remember flying on one when I was a kid
33 Davescj : At least domestically, FEDEX still has them. I don't know if UPS does or not. Dave
34 Post contains links Lightsaber : 25 years out of production... wow. I remember riding on DL's f quite a few times when I was growing up. To think, the youngest is 25 years old and FX
35 Maxpower1954 : I flew the 727 (-200 only) for World Airways, Piedmont and US Air from 1985 to 1991 as flight engineer and co-pilot. As a previous poster said, a pilo
36 Kiwiandrew : they did build it , they called it the 757
37 Max Q : The best handling narrowbody ever made, beautiful to fly and beautifully engineered. The first jet I flew and it was a privilege. They really don't ma
38 Tiger119 : - Even though I still would rather sit in an aisle seat, in the 727 I always wanted a window just aft of the wings. I was amazing to watch those wing
39 Maxpower1954 : One aspect of flying the 727 I really liked was the three crew members. Having a third mind in the cockpit was a big safety benefit. Of course, econom
40 American 767 : During the 80's, they had over 150 of those, if not 180. As many have pointed out, the 727's were very popular in major airlines during the 70's and
41 Jolau1701 : I along with several others agree, the Boeing 727 was the airliner that got us interested in aviation. I thought the Boeing 757 should have been the 7
42 AirframeAS : I am very fortunate to be able to fly on UA's 722's back in 1989 from SEA-DEN (Stapleton)-BWI-ORD-SEA. And on CO as well, IIRC.... (Did CO have any 72
43 Max Q : I think so, I certainly remember flying there out of IAH for a short layover..
44 WESTERN737800 : I flew on a DL 722 in Jun '89 SLC-HLN-FCA. As other people have said, its the airplane that got a lot of us interested in aviation. It was a fast, goo
45 Post contains links and images Eksath : There are plenty in Miami. View Large View MediumPhoto © Suresh A. Atapattu View Large View MediumPhoto © Suresh A. Atapattu View Large View
46 Gemuser : You are not kidding! Also on a short field take off, you would swear the the wing had fallen off! My most memorable B727-100 memory was coming home f
47 AirframeAS : I remember CO doing a SEA-SJC-LAX-SJC-SEA flight using a 722.
48 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : The first 727 built, delivered to UA in 1964 after use in the flight test program. Spent 27 years with UA until 1991 when UA repainted it in the origi
49 Post contains links and images OA260 : They were great A/C. DL at ATH OA Hanger ATH And sadly what became of OA's B727's
50 BN727flyr : I remember flying and servicing many 727s belonging to Braniff (of course), American, Continental, Eastern, and TWA (all -100s and -200s); plus -200s
51 Post contains images Aviateur : The first airplane ride I ever took was on a Boeing 727. It was 1974. Boston to Washington, DC. I remember they served sandwiches and a cheesecake des
52 CairnTerriAir : Flew countless 727-100's and 200's over the years aboard TWA, Eastern, Delta, USair, Mexicana, American, Piedmont,Continental, Peoplexpress, Northwest
53 Tb727 : This is the airplane that got me into wanting to be an airline pilot when I grew up. It got me to where I am today. As a bunch of you may know from t
54 TheRedBaron : I love the 722, I flew Western, PSA, Pan Am, American and Mexicana 727s for years. I loved the huge gap the wing had when they landed and put the spoi
55 Post contains images DocLightning : Notice how nicely you were dressed! My mother always made me wear nice clothes to ride a plane. My favorite livery was NW's bowling shoe.
56 Brons2 : I'm with the other poster, I used to be disappointed when I got a 727 for my flight back in the 70s and 80s because, well, we always got 727's! By the
57 RayChuang : Actually, during the middle 1970's Boeing did serious engineering studies on building 727-200 powered by two PW2037 engines instead of three JT8D eng
58 WESTERN737800 : I think the 727 was an airplane that looked great no matter what companies' colors it was wearing. AA, CO, DL, EA, NW, US, UA, TW, PA, RC, NE, UPS, FD
59 Post contains links and images Fabo : I am very happy to have (unplannedly, though) caught the last passenger 727 in Europe. View Large View MediumPhoto © Michael Hall Flown it on Jun
60 Maxpower1954 : The 727 is the only airliner in commercial aviation history that was flown by every U.S. major airline. The initial hold-out was Delta, which began 72
61 Post contains images Aces727 : During the mid 80’s and early 90’s I hated the fact that 80% of my flights were on the 727, my parents used to make the decision on the route we w
62 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : There are still 35 727s registered in Canada. I think they all operate as freighters except the following First Air 727-200C combi (originaly an AC pa
63 Tiger119 : - Isn't Amerijet mainly a Caribbean and Northern South America cargo carrier? - I remember when USAir made IND a focus city and they would have at le
64 FXramper : I will try to get photos and scan them, but there is this photo of my uncle when he's like 12 in the left seat of a 727 he flew on with AA. Little did
65 Gemuser : No, being a tri-jet and able to maintain height on two engines the B727 was not subject to any ETOPS like restrictions, at least in most cases/places
66 Essentialpowr : Check Essentialpower, down load and cover the bus... The generator priority was 3-1-2. I gotta Nine light trip!! Make sure the tail stairs are down! F
67 N471WN : some folks say 1831 were built---actually it was 1832
68 Viscount724 : That's probably due to Boeing's orders and deliveries data showing 1831 delivered which is correct. They kept one of the flight test aircraft (the 2n
69 F9Animal : Whoa! Look at how wide the aisle is! Holy smokes, and the aircraft had video monitors? I have some good memories of the 727 as well. It is sad to see
70 Tb727 : This thing has so many little sayings I am learning now in class. Seattle-Miami pumps... Vertical Trip/L Trip/T Trip Breaks in every afternoon upstai
71 OA260 : Thats what I was thinking . Thats amazing
72 Viscount724 : Note that aircraft has 4-abreast first class seating where the aisle will be wider than if it had standard 3-3 economy seats with the same narrow ais
73 Rlwynn : That last 727 used to be a fixture at the El Toro airshow. For at least 10 years it was there with a sign displaying that it was the last 727 built. I
74 Max Q : Try this one TB727 Functions of Fire Handle : Fly - Fuel Shut off. All - All Bleeds closed. Day - Discharge bottle armed Get - Generator field relay t
75 Tb727 : Yep, that's right! Nice job! The last one is right, we were joking the other day that it's a feel good light. With all the stuff you are losing and t
76 Max Q : Good for you, that is an excellent result on a complicated Aircraft, especially the Electrical system but you i'm sure you know that by now ! Which e
77 N405MX : There was a plan to re-engine the 727 with rolls royce engines less "fuel thirsty" than the JT8´s, but in the end it was more expensive to do the co
78 Max Q : UPS did re-engine their -100's with the Rolls Royce Tay in addition to a cockpit retrofit with EFIS. I always thought, economically this was a dubiou
79 Maxpower1954 : The 727 wasn't as automated as a modern jet - the systems required a certain finesse to operate. As an engineer, the original pneumatic pressurization
80 Maxpower1954 : At US Air, this was a common occurence. I've flown with a number of guys who flew as Unaccompanied Minor on Allegheny years before, to eventually bec
81 AirframeAS : Whoa! That's the first time I've seen a 727 with eyebrow windows plugged. I didn't know the 727's had them plugged in, too! Looks creepy! LOL!
82 Tb727 : I don't know, they keep telling me it is the most automated airliner, it's voice activated! lol 3 of them have -9A's that are just under 180k and a -
83 Burkhard : Quite some good flights on it, Pan Am to Berlin, Condor, Lufthansa, Hapag Lloyd I remember.
84 Post contains links and images WILCO737 : I only had 2 flights in my life on the B727: DXB-IKA-DXB: View Large View MediumPhoto © Taha Ashoori - Iranian Spotters Great flights, great airp
85 DocLightning : Looks like it's an all-F configuration. And yeah, some 727's had video monitors (CRT's, of course) installed during the '80's and '90's. I loved sitt
86 Viscount724 : In my experience the rear seats on 727s (and DC-9s and other rear-engined airliners ) are still quieter than the last few rows on 737-200s, 707s and
87 DocLightning : I agree, which was one of Boeing's marketing schticks for the 727. That's why it was called the "Whisperliner." I remember back before stage III regs
88 September11 : talk about 727 wing slats ... amazing to see them retract slowly.
89 OA260 : Funny enough my last flight on a B727 was on an Iranian Carrier also THR-SYZ-THR
90 Post contains images Tb727 : The wing on the 727 is just about the coolest thing I have ever seen. I took this pic last week in class, it was all rainy so I didn't get anything s
91 Max Q : Great looking Machine TB. Most of ours were -9's with a gross weight of 172,500, then we inherited some PE aircraft that were 175,500 if I remember r
92 Sparky35805 : Eastern is the one which called the 727 Whisperjets,not Boeing. The first 727 that I saw was an Eastern 727-025 at ATL in the summer of 1964.It was in
93 Viscount724 : Eastern also used the Whisperjet name on their DC-9s, at least the -14 and -31 models, for quite a while. I think they dropped the name when they swi
94 Sparky35805 : They at first referred to the DC9s as Whisperjet IIs in there ads.The titles on the aircraft only said whisperjet.The 1011s were labled whisperliners.
95 N471WN : And let us not forget about the oldest 727 still "active". Serial #18365 flies today for Clementine Transport (not sure who that is) and first flew on
96 ClassicLover : Only flown on the Boeing 727 once ever - on a 727-200Adv of Ansett Australia, flying SYD-OOL-SYD. It's damned quiet up around row 6! Nice aircraft, an
97 Post contains images Womack17 : I still remember my first 727 flight (indeed my first flight on any aircraft) was with Eastern Airlines. I was 13 years old (1975) and got to fly out
98 Tommy767 : I'm guessing no american carriers did this but what world carriers might have installed monitor. I know UA installed audio on the 727 in the latter d
99 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : Quite a few CP Air 737-200s (later part of the Canadian Airlines fleet) had video and audio IFE systems. They were used on routes as long as YUL-YVR
100 Tiger119 : There was a book on the shelves about the "Boeing 720" that had a lot of good photos and stories. I'm sure there are a few about the 727 out there som
101 Gr8Circle : I saw a 727 taking off from YYZ just a few days ago (probably Fedex).....although I was driving, it caught my attention for it's sheer grace and beau
102 TISTPAA727 : I always wondered what caused that sound. Now I know!! Thanks
103 413X3 : Fedex yes, but more specifically Morningstar
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