Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Frontier Applies For IND/STL-CUN  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26127 posts, RR: 50
Posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5568 times:

Frontier has applied with the DOT to commence Cancun service from both Indianapolis and St Louis effective December 19th.

F9 proposes daily service this winter per the below schedule utilizing A319 aircraft.

IND-CUN 0910-1134
CUN-IND 1225-1650

STL-CUN 0935-1240
CUN-STL 130-1640

OST-2009-0215


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
67 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25687 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5543 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Frontier has applied with the DOT to commence Cancun service from both Indianapolis and St Louis effective December 19th.

This is a reapplication, no? In effect they still hold those authorities, although they are dormant?

Although daily service - on both routes - is a mild surprise.  Smile

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26127 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5508 times:

Yes both routes were flown in the past and went dormant.

DOT route exemptions however are only valid for two years, so the IND-CUN would expire Oct 19, 2009 and STL-CUN already expired on June 6, 2009 based on their last extensions.

Only way to salvage the IND route would be to file for the renewal and commence prior to October, while STL is past point of getting an extension and needs a new petition anyhow.

p.s. - anyway its not like they wont get the authorities. And yes daily is a commitment, and assumption Cancun beach tourism will be back strong this winter.


[Edited 2009-09-05 13:18:23]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5506 times:

I just wonder where F9 is gonna get the planes to do this if they are shifting some 19's to MKE..... This raises my eyebrows...


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15828 posts, RR: 27
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5468 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 1):
Although daily service - on both routes - is a mild surprise.

Swine flu (  Yeah sure ) is a bit of a wrench in the works, but I think that USA 3000 was flying STL-CUN daily. Of course they probably have more tour contracts, but daily probably isn't that much of a stretch.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 3):
I just wonder where F9 is gonna get the planes to do this if they are shifting some 19's to MKE..... This raises my eyebrows...

Interesting angle for sure. Embraers to Denver perhaps?  stirthepot 



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5458 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
Interesting angle for sure.

It may be, but we have been 51 airplanes for over a year now... phasing out the 18's for 20's.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26127 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5424 times:

I don't see what the issue is with 'where equipment is coming from'.

You have a new sheriff in town which for all practical purposes owns 6 airlines now (7 if you want to count Mokulele), and smartly will move its assets around to to hopefully provide the maximum return for the group.

Neither Frontier, Lynx or Midwest are any longer silo operations, so its only natural one will see shifts in routes, staffing and equipment. Good or bad its the nature of the animal.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25687 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5416 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
Interesting angle for sure. Embraers to Denver perhaps?  

That's already known. Some E190's will almost certainly be moving to DEN.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15828 posts, RR: 27
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5402 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):
It may be, but we have been 51 airplanes for over a year now... phasing out the 18's for 20's.

And if they are sending some planes to MKE, and starting these routes it seems like something will have to be shifted around.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5395 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):

What you're saying is "Frontier no more".



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25687 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5373 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 9):
What you're saying is "Frontier no more".

How melodramatic is that?

As SM said from the git-go, Frontier cannot emerge from bk the same airline they went in.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15828 posts, RR: 27
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5362 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 9):
What you're saying is "Frontier no more".

I don't think so, but they certainly won't live in a bubble. Republic would be stupid to not be shifting resources and rightsizing throughout their system.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5363 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 10):
Frontier cannot emerge from bk the same airline they went in.

Which means they cannot be operating the same way or doing the same things they were doing when they went in, going out of bankruptcy. That does not mean no more F9.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25687 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5353 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
That does not mean no more F9.

You just said it did:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 9):
What you're saying is "Frontier no more".

 confused 

Look at it this way - they could have been swallowed by Southwest, but they live - as Frontier - to fly another day.

Will things be "different"? of course. That is the bature of it all.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26127 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5347 times:

Frontier had two potential BK exit outcomes. Either with SWA and certain extinguishment of the brand, or with Republic which has professed and admiration for the F9 brand as it has with YX.

What or how F9 will look like in 2 or 5 years from now is anyone's guess but we should not be surprised to see changes in route networks as Republic tries to get handle on its subsidiaries.

These added CUN flights might be steps in permanent shift in flying or simply temporary uses of assets during the winter period.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25687 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5326 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
These added CUN flights might be steps in permanent shift in flying or simply temporary uses of assets during the winter period.

I can't imagine these new routes will be daily year round, but the fleet is "tight" and they wouldn't send 'em where they can't make money.

At the same time, based on what SM and BB have both said, these won't be the last new routes announced, and I'm keeping an eye on IND.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15828 posts, RR: 27
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5326 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 13):
You just said it did:

I think he meant that changing did not mean the end of Frontier.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25687 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5300 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 16):
I think he meant that changing did not mean the end of Frontier.

I'm glad you read that into it, it escaped me.

The airline is emerging from Chapter 11 reorganized and revitalized and profitable, but - things will be different.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineThegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2311 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5289 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):

These added CUN flights might be steps in permanent shift in flying or simply temporary uses of assets during the winter period.

It's definitely the latter...
Republic is assesing what they have and are trying to maximize possible returns on flights there's no way IND/STL will work year-round.....so it's definitely the latter



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25687 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5263 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting ThegreatRDU (Reply 18):
so it's definitely the latter

But that's true of all the Frontier routes to Mexico, except DEN-CUN.

DEN-CUN is daily year round, but all the others are suspended in the summer months.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineDBCooper From Brazil, joined Jun 2004, 196 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5162 times:

CUN-IND/STL service is not going to be daily year-around but rather Saturday only during the winter '09-'10 peak.

Stay tuned for more leisure flying!


-DBC


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15828 posts, RR: 27
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5094 times:



Quoting DBCooper (Reply 20):
CUN-IND/STL service is not going to be daily year-around but rather Saturday only during the winter '09-'10 peak.

Seems likely. Looking at the USA 3000 website, their STL-CUN flights show only twice a week even through March. Either swine flu is a really huge deal, or they haven't loaded changes yet.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineFX772LRF From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 675 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5060 times:

So does this mean direct IND-CUN or IND-DEN-CUN? I'd love to have another F9 flight at IND!

I hope this goes though!

-Noah  wave 



Cleared to IAH via CLL 076 radial/BAZBL/RIICE3, up to 3k, 7k in 10, departure on 134.3, squawk 4676, Colgan 9581.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25687 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5056 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting FX772LRF (Reply 22):
So does this mean direct IND-CUN or IND-DEN-CUN? I'd love to have another F9 flight at IND!

IND-CUN as a non-stop.

Wikipedia is fast - they already have it listed for IND airport, pending approval.  Smile

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFX772LRF From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 675 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5043 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 23):
IND-CUN as a non-stop.

Awesome! I probably missed it, but what aircraft are they planning to use?

-Noah  wave 



Cleared to IAH via CLL 076 radial/BAZBL/RIICE3, up to 3k, 7k in 10, departure on 134.3, squawk 4676, Colgan 9581.
25 LAXintl : see
26 FX772LRF : *facepalm* I'm stupid. Thank LAXintl, for dealing with me and my narrow mind tonight. -Noah
27 Tiger119 : - Not to sound pessimestic, but is there a demand for a daily IND-CUN? I mean, I live here and would love to see it happen. Is Republic planning on u
28 Mariner : I doubt they are looking at any kind of hub or focus city, but I would not fall over in shock if one or two more routes were added from IND. Not quit
29 Antoniemey : All students are told not to use Wiki as a source... but many start with Wiki and check with the sources THEY list... because in most cases those are
30 SurfandSnow : Interesting developments for sure. Seems like Republic wants to restore both the peak Midwest AND Frontier networks?
31 Mariner : I'll be interested to see how they schedule this. At the moment, Frontier doesn't have an aircraft at IND at 9 am. The RON aircraft has already gone a
32 F9fan : IIRC, F9 operated IND-CUN for Apple Vacations as a charter on the side. Wikipedia is a tertiary source. All college level resources want primary sour
33 Mariner : That was changed about three or four years ago. Now three airlines from each country can serve certain city pairs in each country. Mostly, these are
34 Mariner : Which may be why the DOT has today approved the new service - IND-CUN and STL-CUN - without waiting the usual fifteen day answer period. Docket #: OS
35 LAXintl : Mariner - the only reason DOT replied fast and did not use the regular comment period was because Frontier decided to pursue the option of polling all
36 Mariner : I understand they did that, but in previous applications when Frontier has polled the other carriers, the DOT has usually waited for at least the fif
37 Enilria : I have to think that putting an E190 on these and leaving the Airbus in Denver is far better than the reverse. Daily service on either of those route
38 Cubsrule : Unfortuantely, this filing probably obligates them to use the 319 since there are no 190s on F9's certificate.
39 BMI727 : True, but these routes strike me as being perfect for the E-jets. Maybe bump them up to twice a week on Embraers and/or make them able to fly this fo
40 Mariner : It is easy enough for Republic to apply for the authority later, and probably when things have calmed down a little. There is a complex structural ch
41 Cubsrule : Didn't F9 crow about it when DL and a Connection carrier both held (IIRC) SLC-PVR authority?
42 Mariner : In those days, there were only two authorities available per city pair. That is now changed and for most Mexican resort cities (and GDL/MTY?) there a
43 Cubsrule : They have, but there wasn't any objection. Yes, though in both STL and IND, someone else holds an authority so there are not presently three availabl
44 Mariner : I'm not sure why there would be an objection. By that time, the bilateral had been changed to allow for three authorities. I don't follow. There are
45 Post contains links Atrude777 : Did U5 take MG's STL-CUN authority? Otherwise, that would have been the 3, MG, AA and U5 when all flew STL-CUN. Or did F9 get the authority from MG? I
46 Cubsrule : Correct, and that's the status quo. Today, if both F9 and RW hold authorities in either IND or MKE (or DEN, for that matter), there will be no author
47 Mariner : How so? In the case of DEN-CUN, for example, United holds the third authority. The three authority rule was negotiated with Mexico in part so that on
48 Cubsrule : Correct. So if RW, UA, and F9 hold authorities, there won't be one for a new entrant. Same story in IND with DL, RW, and F9. Same story in STL with U
49 Mariner : That's right. It applies to any city pair - there are only three authorities. But the letter of the law of competition is upheld, if not the spirit.
50 Cubsrule : I'm not so sure the first part of this sentence remains true... But AA, AS, and UA are three separate companies selling three separate products. F9 a
51 Mariner : I feel as if we are fighting a battle that was neutralized some years ago. Historically, at least, the DOT took no position on affiliation or ownersh
52 Post contains links Cubsrule : I don't. I do know that Obama nominated someone who was very anti-business to lead Justice/Antitrust. I can only assume that his nominees at DoT will
53 Mariner : Those are the rules under which the DOT operates, how they explained it to the airlines at the time prior to the renegotiation. Are you saying the DO
54 Cubsrule : I'm saying that the written rules don't compel the result that DoT arrived at. I could argue that that definition covers only the ticket seller. I co
55 Mariner : I'm sure you could, but I cannot speak for the DOT, I can only report what they said and I am still completely confused as to what point you are maki
56 Cubsrule : Correct - you've highlighted the difference. In both IND and MKE, if RW and F9 both have authorities, there will be no available authority. My point
57 Mariner : In the case of MKE-CUN, if Sun Country's application is approved (has it been?), there may be only one available, so I don't see that both Frontier a
58 Cubsrule : I meant STL, not MKE - but if MKE has been approved, MKE is in the same boat.
59 Mariner : Which boat? There are three MKE-CUN authorities. Delta (NWA) has one, Sun Country now has the second and so there may be a third available - unless U
60 LV : I wonder if F9's MX is going to shift to Republic's MX at IND and IND-CUN is a another way to get planes to MX
61 Mariner : I would be surprised if they don't move the heavy maintenance to MKE. Of course, if the City of Denver (and DIA) come up with a hangar and if they re
62 Atrude777 : That is what I was getting at, since MG no longer holds the certif/authority, because of them not flying anymore, did it go to F9/U5 or did it become
63 Mariner : Charter authority is simpler than scheduled service authority. For example, I believe (?) Airtran is planning some charter flights MKE-CUN - but don'
64 Tiger119 : - How much space does Republic have at the IMC at IND (old United MX facility)? David
65 TZTriStar500 : They lease all of Hangar 7 which has two bays A and B. AAR has the rest.
66 Cubsrule : Apologies; I forgot NW. MKE is different, then, as there is only one available.
67 MASTYC : Charter flights don't count as long as none of the seats are sold by the airline doing the flying. F9 held the authority at IND before but also held
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Frontier Applies For MKE-CUN posted Thu Jul 5 2007 21:26:41 by Mariner
JetBlue Applies For TPA/IAD-CUN posted Thu Jul 17 2008 14:20:53 by Humberside
Frontier Applies For Open Skies Authority posted Fri Apr 13 2007 23:14:09 by Mariner
Frontier Applies For DFW To Mazatlan posted Mon Jan 22 2007 23:56:31 by FATFlyer
Frontier Applies For SMF-SJD; SJC-SJD posted Tue Oct 3 2006 03:50:22 by MAH4546
Spirit Applies For TPA/MCO-CUN; UA For DEN-CZM posted Wed May 4 2005 22:21:39 by MAH4546
F9 Fined For Selling STL-CUN posted Sat Sep 11 2004 04:04:07 by UAL747DEN
North American Applies For OAK-MEX/CUN posted Fri Sep 3 2004 21:20:31 by MAH4546
US Airways Applies For IAD/BWI-CUN Authority posted Wed Mar 31 2004 15:33:50 by A330323X
Frontier Applies For SNA Stols posted Fri Nov 22 2002 15:19:52 by ONT 737