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China Unveils Its Commercial Aircraft - Comac C919  
User currently offlineAviationbuff From India, joined Mar 2008, 1425 posts, RR: 3
Posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 25666 times:

AA09: Comac unveils model of the C919 airliner

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ls-model-of-the-c919-airliner.html

Quote:
Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China (Comac) will unveil at the show a model showing the exterior design of its much-anticipated Comac C919 - the aircraft China hopes will establish the country as one of the world's top commercial aircraft-makers.



Finally China is venturing into commercial aviation.

To me the aircraft look very similar to A320.

Best of luck China.

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2711 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 25604 times:



Quoting Aviationbuff (Thread starter):
Finally China is venturing into commercial aviation.

To me the aircraft look very similar to A320.

It certainly does! Whilst we need to see the details, they probably have suffient plans and specs to copy the A320 pretty closely. Chinese culture does not have a concept of intellectual property. They will probably develop it quite independently once they arrive at the critical mass of independent know-how.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 25576 times:



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 2):
It certainly does! Whilst we need to see the details, they probably have suffient plans and specs to copy the A320 pretty closely

Since the A320 is build in China I would be sure they have the specs..  Smile



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 25419 times:



Quoting Aviationbuff (Thread starter):
To me the aircraft look very similar to A320.

On the outside it does seem to resemble the a320. The seat count (130-200) seems to imply at least two variants, maybe even three (think a319/a320/a321). I do think I see winglets on the wing, but it's hard to tell from the picture.

What's much more important is what's on the inside. Will it have FBW, how much of the plane will be composites and "traditional" alloys, etc. I'm also very curious if they will use next gen engines (GTF) or more traditional engines. They appear to be talking to everyone right now.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 25272 times:

It was announced in back March. It's just a press release for the Asian Aerospace.


A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8204 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 25205 times:



Quoting Kappel (Reply 3):
On the outside it does seem to resemble the a320.

The front section looks a lot like a mini A380 nose with 787 cockpit windows. Seems to me like they actually may have put some thought into it rather than just make a carbon copy of the A320 blue prints. But then again, until we see the actual specs this means absolutely nothing.


User currently offlineAirNz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 25011 times:



Quoting Aviationbuff (Thread starter):
To me the aircraft look very similar to A320.

Perhaps yes, but as I've repeatedly said, how do you make any modern aircraft radically any different? Because of it's very nature of design one can't feasibly get away from people saying "it's a copy of xxxxx". 'Comparing' such is pretty daft if you ask me.


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 24867 times:



Quoting AirNz (Reply 6):
'Comparing' such is pretty daft if you ask me.

Agreed, just look at the similarities between the a350 and 787.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 5):
But then again, until we see the actual specs this means absolutely nothing.

Again agreed. The outside really says very little about the plane. I have some doubts that this will sell in big numbers outside China, but then again, who thought ten or twenty years ago thousands of jets would be bought from a Brazilian company.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 24807 times:



Quoting Aviationbuff (Thread starter):
To me the aircraft look very similar to A320.

China's way of saying thank you to Airbus for giving them the information that they need to get their own aircraft up and running!



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 24724 times:



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 1):
They will probably develop it quite independently once they arrive at the critical mass of independent know-how.

There is no way to gauge when they will have "critical mass of independent know-how." The C919 does not represent it. While China's engineering talent is very good, their track record of transport machinery is abysmally poor. It is changing... slowly.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 8):
China's way of saying thank you to Airbus for giving them the information that they need to get their own aircraft up and running!

Of course. But when I saw the thread, I was really expecting a copy of the Boeing 727
 rotfl 


User currently offlineLxmd11 From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 24423 times:



Quoting Kappel (Reply 3):

If you look very closely at the right side of the picture there is a winglet but it doesnt extend the whole length of the wingtip like the new blended winglets do.


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 24323 times:



Quoting Lxmd11 (Reply 10):
If you look very closely at the right side of the picture there is a winglet but it doesnt extend the whole length of the wingtip like the new blended winglets do.

That's indeed what I was looking at. It kind of looks like a winglet, but it's kinda hard to tell exactly.

EIther way, I'd love to see what the Chinese can come up with.

On a side note, what's the status of the ARJ?



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2011 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 24248 times:

If you or I designed a 150 seater it would look like an A320.

If you or I designed a 250-300 seater wide bodied twin it would look like a 787.

Modern planes look alike, cos an opimum shape has been founded for particular types of a plane using current technology. Seeing that the ARJ-21 has an Antonov desgined wing, a whole new Chinese designed plane is a massive leap forward...



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlineRIX From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1787 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 24017 times:



Quoting Kappel (Reply 7):
The outside really says very little about the plane. I have some doubts that this will sell in big numbers outside China, but then again, who thought ten or twenty years ago thousands of jets would be bought from a Brazilian company.

- yep, that's the thing, what exactly they intend to achieve: to build something good enough to be able to sell it domestically and to the countries/airlines that currently fly third hand 732s/310s - or to really eventually become a major player in narrowbody market. I'd still expect Russia to be there first...


User currently offlineConcentriq From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 368 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 23503 times:



Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 8):
China's way of saying thank you to Airbus for giving them the information that they need to get their own aircraft up and running!



Quoting KL911 (Reply 2):
Since the A320 is build in China I would be sure they have the specs

This is a likely scenario of how things will turn out for aviation industry in china

http://www.examiner.com/x-9227-Seatt...09m5d6-Chinese-Knockoffs-Wont-Quit

i just hope that quality is not of the same level as described in this article. (see secion about crash tests)



Mobilis In Mobili
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 22308 times:
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What impact will this have on Embraer? Embraer built a plant in China for the E170 if I'm not mistaken. Will Embraer design something totally new? Is there a hole in the commercial aircraft space that they could fill?


The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 22291 times:



Quoting Aviationbuff (Thread starter):
To me the aircraft look very similar to A320.

It wouldn't surprise me if it is, China is natorious for stealing designs. Look at that other jet they just came out with.. they use the same fuse and all as a DC-9/MD-80 etc.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6343 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 21579 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 16):
It wouldn't surprise me if it is, China is natorious for stealing designs. Look at that other jet they just came out with.. they use the same fuse and all as a DC-9/MD-80 etc.

I was actually really suprised it wasn't a diesel-9 derivative with modern high bypass engines myself  Wink

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 1):
It certainly does! Whilst we need to see the details, they probably have suffient plans and specs to copy the A320 pretty closely. Chinese culture does not have a concept of intellectual property. They will probably develop it quite independently once they arrive at the critical mass of independent know-how.

It will probably be a quite cost-reduced version, though...Chinese factory managers are notorious (in electronics manufacture, in particular) for making unannounced cost reducing changes in products (even ignoring their effects on the product's durability, longevity, or safety  Wow! ) and pocketing the the change from the cost reductions. I worked for a fortune 500 company, who manufactured electronic products in China, and got burned by this at one of our factories  Angry Can't say more without violating my NDA...



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 21163 times:

The front door decal isn't even on straight. Either that, or it's designed crooked. Either way, not a confidence inspiration...


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12885 posts, RR: 100
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 21052 times:
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Quoting Aviationbuff (Thread starter):
To me the aircraft look very similar to A320.

C919=A319?  Wink

Quoting KL911 (Reply 2):
Since the A320 is build in China I would be sure they have the specs..

Creating a model is easy, but what will they offer to attract foreign buyers?

Oh, for a new aircraft company to do the 130 to 200 seat range with a first product in 2016... Very aggressive. Which engine? They have one year, maybe 18 months, to persuade Pratt, GE or RR to develop a new engine. If its an existing engine..  yawn  Boeing and airbus will be pushed to actually go forward with their re-engine programs.

Actually, SNECMA might be their best bet for a new engine design...  scratchchin 

From the source link: "US firm Goodrich, meanwhile, is forming a joint-venture with China's Xian Aircraft in the hope that this new venture can secure C919 work.

The Chinese joint-venture plans to make landing-gear and engine nacelle components."

Ok, so the gear will be Western designed. Now lets find out details on the wing box, wing aerodynamics, tires, engines, APU, flaps, avionics, hydraulics (or will this be an 'electric plane?'), and ???. What is the base material? Is the wing being designed by China or outsourced (I hope at a minimum Antonov or Sukhoi is brought in to optimize the aerodynamics, otherwise, there is little chance to beat even the 737NG's efficiency).

And why the drop in mention of the ARJ-21? Someone needs to change the order table as most of the EIS dates have come and gone:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACAC_ARJ21

The size of the engines on the model implies a current generation engine.  yawn  The wing-body contour seems inefficient. I know these seem like nitpicks... but there is a reason it takes billions to launch a new aircraft. The details are important! Its not good enough to match two established competitors. The old 'rule of thumb' is they need either 7% 'more' of something. 7% less fuel burn or 7% more range or payload, or ...


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 20865 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 19):
but there is a reason it takes billions to launch a new aircraft. The details are important! Its not good enough to match two established competitors.

China has the money. If only that was all it took. It also takes decades of experience. Steep learning curve. A culture of marketing and lifetime support.

China's industry is probably not yet mature enough to do a project like this, at any cost. They don't have the _companies_ needed to mount such a project. They will succeed in the business, but not now.


User currently offlineFRAspotter From United States of America, joined May 2004, 2341 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 20736 times:

I'm still waiting to see if they'll put a "Made in China" decal on the underbelly of the fuselage...  Wink


"Drunks run stop signs. Stoners wait for them to turn green."
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12885 posts, RR: 100
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 20134 times:
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Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
China's industry is probably not yet mature enough to do a project like this, at any cost. They don't have the _companies_ needed to mount such a project. They will succeed in the business, but not now.

 checkmark  e.g. we see Mitsubishi re-entering the market with a regional jet. That alone with the Japanese industry, whom makes parts for Boeing, IAE, and others, is a major step for them. Going straight into the #1 market will be... a challenge.

OT:
"GE confident of winning China engine contract:"
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssI...UtilitiesNews/idUSSHA3682520090907

Although I noted the article said: "Pratt & Whitney, a unit of United Technologies (UTX.N), is also among the contestants to supply engines to C919, a company executive told Reuters previously."

China 'encouraging' new local carriers to use Chinese aircraft:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...local-carriers-to-use-chinese.html

Note: The previous encouragement didn't work for the MA-60.

So with Goodrich, GE or Pratt, and other western companies, what are the Chinese really doing?

Where is the money coming from to fund the development? Do not expect Boeing and Airbus to ignore this with the WTO.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineFarzan From Sweden, joined Jul 2007, 180 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 19686 times:



Quoting Kappel (Reply 11):
On a side note, what's the status of the ARJ?

China daily had an article last week stating that deliveries of the first ARJ21's will start in 2010. In a separate article it was said that foreign companies where lining up to get in on the the Chinese "Jumbo Jet" project. (C919).


User currently offlineNCB From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 19639 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 9):
Of course. But when I saw the thread, I was really expecting a copy of the Boeing 727

China is quite advanced in aerospace, unlike what many things.
They already do active supply work for Airbus and Boeing, they have their own active designs, they design and their own fighter jets, their own engines.

It's a 100 year old industry in China, there have been pioneers there too, like Guo Yonghuai, an aerodynamics researcher and Feng Ru who built his own machine from scratch and flew it no much after the Wright Bros.

There is not enough info about C919 to determine what it will be like, but I do see it meet the requirements of the domestic market. I'd definitely wait a few years for the engine technology, with all the promising aspects it would be such a shame to equip them with standard CFM's.

There will finally be A, B and a C  Smile


25 TheRedBaron : No there will be A, B and FAW aerospace. And if they have the same quality as the "cars" they make, we are in for a few surprises. just my 2 centavos.
26 VHECA : I am unsure that there would be a "C" in this figure with this jet alone. (I know that the ARJ is stillthere) but not the great variation in market c
27 Jolau1701 : I'd probably design something that looks like a 727.
28 Pellegrine : This (what's in the photo) is really just a bad model, so I would not read much into design cues. I mean look at the R1 door, it is way too small (unl
29 Ikramerica : Yeah, as I said too... Any time a photo like this has cool "visual effects" processed onto it, it's usually hiding an underlying truth: it's crap. Th
30 Kennyk : It's OK coming up with an A320 copy, but that's mid/late 80s technology, add some bells and whistles and at best late 90s technology. The next generat
31 Post contains links Pellegrine : Agree, but, I'm willing to give them a chance. The 787 had all these cool design touches that didn't make it to the final stage...the sharkfin, etc.
32 Spr773 : As most of the fellow A-netters suggested.... Looking at China's reputation I feel the aircraft would be a copy of probably the A320 which is already
33 Farzan : If that's true then I think it will only be A+C. The B company appears to have a problem right there
34 Rheinwaldner : The lowest picture shows another plane: the ARJ21 which is flying already (and some say is flying since the sixties )....
35 TISTPAA727 : Just read the Bloomberg article which provides a little more detail (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=am7fsSBVrBrQ). The 168 seat p
36 Lightsaber : If they are using cheaper materials, that means a heavier plane (or shorter life). Due to the numerous short fields in China, its likely this design
37 Post contains links and images Keesje : googled this up. The China engineering ESD&I team is supporting the flight test aircraft fleet operation, trouble shooting, engine flight test item an
38 Huaiwei : I find it utterly shocking that someone can utter such a line in this forum and no one takes issue with it. Is there any justification to attribute t
39 AirbusA6 : The old Soviet bloc manmaged to support a serious airliner industry until the Sovier Union collapsed, only exporting to its allies, so on that basis t
40 Astral : I had posted here many many times on the C919, may I ask those interested for more information to do a search for what I had reported. Just to repeat
41 KL911 : It's not rocket science.... Holland, a tiny country, had Fokker producing F50, F70 and F100's for clients all over the world. Why can't China do the s
42 Flighty : Haha Arguably, the work that went into the A380 or the B787 and their engines is the full equal of rocket science. Narrowbodies, maybe not so much.
43 KL911 : Engines come from a total different supplier... And we're talking narrowbody here right?
44 Ikramerica : Experience. Sorry if it bothers you, but China is a country that CURRENTLY has no regard to for intellectual property, from the highest levels down t
45 Post contains links Aviationbuff : P&W wants role on China's C919 http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-pw-wants-role-on-chinas-c919.html PW has the advantage of offering a next-gen e
46 Post contains links and images Keesje : As expected. Offering the GTF as well as LeapX would offer airlines the option off waiting a few yrs before selecting the engine. A risk reducing opt
47 R2rho : We shouldn't interpret too much from what looks to be a very preliminary model. I'd like to see some more performance specs first, as well as what sys
48 Sebolino : Considering the "success" of Russian airplanes, I wonder who will want to buy Chinese airplanes. Probably only China and its close friends. And it wou
49 Parapente : After the war it seems that the "entry level" requirements of a country to be considered"serious" it had to have its own (uneconomic) airline. As a re
50 RIX : - which [domestic market] will be quite enough for both Russia and China to justify development of everything smaller than widebody. Make it more att
51 Geekydude : Okay let me summarize. China makes an model airplane. Model airplane resembles real Airbus and Boeing airplanes. China is stealing...China does not re
52 Revelation : If Noel Forgeard was still around, he might say it's a "Chinese copy" of the A320.
53 Ikramerica : Let me summarize. China shows a crappy looking model of an aircraft with few details. People point out China's long HISTORY of intellectual property
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