Hywel From Peru, joined Apr 2008, 719 posts, RR: 3 Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9466 times:
Quoting Bramble (Reply 1): I believe FR own all their own aircraft. Doesn't MoL boast of 'raping' Boeing on the discount received post Sept 11th.
IIRC then there's a dodgy deal whereas MoL sold the planes "to himself" and then leases them back "from himself" at very low costs. Can't remember the exact details.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24 Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9406 times:
Quoting Bramble (Reply 1): I believe FR own all their own aircraft.
No, according to FR's 2009 annual report, at the end of the 2008/09 financial year on March 31, 2009, 43 of their 181 aircraft were leased from "several international leasing companies".
At the end of EasyJet's latest financial year on September 30, 2008, 90 of their 165 aircraft were leased, according to their 2008 annual report..
LatinAviation From Ireland, joined Nov 2003, 1276 posts, RR: 17 Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9158 times:
Quoting Hywel (Reply 2): IRC then there's a dodgy deal whereas MoL sold the planes "to himself" and then leases them back "from himself" at very low costs. Can't remember the exact details.
Incorrect. If Ryanair owns them, they're on the balance sheet. The leasing companies Ryanair leases from are all well-known entities, not special purpose corporations to enrich the CEO.
Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 7): They still operate 8 ex. GB aircrafts, 5 A320's and 3 A321's.
So 44% on operating lease (not on the balance sheet), 56% owned or financial lease (on the balance sheet).
Ryanair, March 09
Lease: 41
Owned: 140
Please keep in mind that "owned" does not equal "payed for". Most owned aircraft for both FR and U2 have a mortgage on them.
Quoting Hywel (Reply 2): IIRC then there's a dodgy deal whereas MoL sold the planes "to himself" and then leases them back "from himself" at very low costs. Can't remember the exact details.
Ryanair, like easyJet and many, many other carriers, have performed "Sale and Lease Back" transactions; here, the airline buys the aircraft, sells it to a lease company or another airline immediately, and leases it back. It's just one of many ways of financing expensive assets, and there's certainly nothing dodgy about it.
SKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1327 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8194 times:
Quoting AirNz (Reply 12): Excellent business strategy.....every airline would do exactly the same if they could.
Although this is highly underhanded and immoral.
Boeing are being well and truly shafted by Ryanair and seem to be lying down and taking it.
Airbus have on a number of occassions refused to have anything to do with Ryanair as they don't want to be left in the red. Airbus are used to giving massive discounts but obviously aren't keen on undervaluing the aircraft so much that they barely break even on them..
I wonder if someone like LH could carry out an aggresive takeover of Ryanair and put MOL out of his misery )) (In my dreams!)
Next Flights: LHR-OSL (319), OSL-LHR (321), LHR-ARN (320), ARN-VXO (S34), VXO-BMA (ATP), ARN-LHR (763), LHR-CPH (320), C
GlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 742 posts, RR: 6 Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7652 times:
Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 13): Boeing are being well and truly shafted by Ryanair and seem to be lying down and taking it.
Well they don't really have a choice, do they? They have the contract signed and in fact, whenFR ordered their irst actaully huge order of 737 Boing was really desperate for this order. Boeing's orderbokk was nothing you could compare to today's books. If the would have hadd the slightest idea how their orderbook would look in 2005 (I believe the first big order of FR was 2000?!) they would have never signed such a deal.
Similar thing with Easy. At the time Easy signed for A319 Airbus was desperate for the first big LCC order. Until then all big LCCs were operating 737 (WN, FR, Easy themself, GO, buzz(ß) etc.). This order was kind of a kickstart for LCCs ordering Airbii. Even though the money Airbus owns per airframe with 2U might not be btter than what Boeing makes with FR, one could argue that still mad the better deal Just look howmany LCCs ended up ordering Airbus after easy. Even a lot that stared off with 737.
Quoting Joost (Reply 9): Ryanair, like easyJet and many, many other carriers, have performed "Sale and Lease Back" transactions; here, the airline buys the aircraft, sells it to a lease company or another airline immediately, and leases it back. It's just one of many ways of financing expensive assets, and there's certainly nothing dodgy about it.
You are absolutely right. And that is exactyl what FR and 2U did with a lot (the majority) of their airframes. Both were in a very favourable position due to the very low prices they made. They were able to sell these aircrafts for a higher price than they actually paid for. By that they were able to generate cashflow out of nothing which is one key factor for them to expand with such a rate.
GlobeEx
As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
Joost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3128 posts, RR: 4 Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7221 times:
Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 13): Although this is highly underhanded and immoral.
I don't see why. Buying & selling and making profit on the combination of these 2, is one of the basic principles of business.
Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 13):
Boeing are being well and truly shafted by Ryanair and seem to be lying down and taking it.
Please remember that Boeing eventually did most of the efforts to sign the deal with FR. FR were extremely close with a deal with Airbus, when Boeing undercut Airbus' price. Press photo's for the deal (with O'Leary and Airbus executives, holding a scale model A320 in FR colors) were already made and the press conference was scheduled, when FR switched to Boeing.
By the way, I do not believe that they sell 7-year old 738s for a higher price than they payed when acquiring them, although they likely won't write off on the airframes that much. But there are more carriers that receive or have received discounts of the same magnitude as FR.
Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 13): Airbus have on a number of occassions refused to have anything to do with Ryanair as they don't want to be left in the red.
Marketing bla-bla. Eventually, when FR will issue it's next tender for 400-something aircraft, Airbus will be contending for this order, no matter what they say now.
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4248 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7067 times:
Quoting Joost (Reply 16): Marketing bla-bla. Eventually, when FR will issue it's next tender for 400-something aircraft, Airbus will be contending for this order, no matter what they say now.
Completely agree, Fortunately A and B currently have back logs big enough not to sign contracts with red ink. FR can get A320 for a good prize, but only if in the end it is a profit for Airbus.
We don't know enough about the 737 deal that we can judge that Boeing preferred a little red to having to reduce production. If end of 2001 Boeing would have known 9/11 to be forgotton by market so fast, they might have not signed htat contract.
Bramble From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6890 times:
Quoting Joost (Reply 14): Press photo's for the deal (with O'Leary and Airbus executives, holding a scale model A320 in FR colors) were already made
I wasn't aware of this.
Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 12): Boeing are being well and truly shafted by Ryanair and seem to be lying down and taking it
I have been told (by a friend who knows a guy etc.) that Boeing were offering some carriers big discounts on new B737 to stop them buying used frames from FR in an effort to prevent FR doing so well financially out of the massive discount received in the earlies 00's.
A friend of mine was studying in Seattle at the time of the announcment of the big order (2002 I though it was, must ask her to confirm) She told me of her shoch when the local papers werely proudly proclaiming that Boeing had been saved by the huge orer by Ryanair,which in her mind (had been away for 2 years) was still a small low cost carrier.
Scouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3254 posts, RR: 10 Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6863 times:
Quoting Joost (Reply 14): Press photo's for the deal (with O'Leary and Airbus executives, holding a scale model A320 in FR colors) were already made
It'd be brilliant if those photos every leaked out but I'm guessing that they were deleted pretty sharpish when the order went to B!
Joost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3128 posts, RR: 4 Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6716 times:
Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 17): It'd be brilliant if those photos every leaked out but I'm guessing that they were deleted pretty sharpish when the order went to B!
I'm fairly sure that I found the picture somewhere in the dungeons of Google's archive once, but that was more than a year ago. Stupid enough, I didn't store the image on my hard drive.
I tried a search, but couldn't find the image straight away. But I'm confident that the image is still somewhere available. Maybe on archive.org.
Quoting Bramble (Reply 16): I have been told (by a friend who knows a guy etc.) that Boeing were offering some carriers big discounts on new B737 to stop them buying used frames from FR in an effort to prevent FR doing so well financially out of the massive discount received in the earlies 00's.
Probably, the logic is way easier than how you put it: Boeing needs to offer discount to keep new airframes attractive, compared to the value of airframes on the second hand market. That's reason enough to lower prices. There is absolutely no reason for Boeing to try to hurt their biggest customer, as it just serves no goal, but costs money.
Besides that, the overall economic downturn influences the prices of second-hand aircraft more than the FR sales. Besides that, FR only benefits from high second hand prices.
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