Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
AF Could Remove Business Class On European Flights  
User currently offlineAA1818 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Feb 2006, 3435 posts, RR: 4
Posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8644 times:

Just coming across on BloombergTV.
An announcement is expected today from AF on some key performance indicators and, according to the analyst, the AF-KLM group could remove business class from intra-European flights in an effort to stem losses and respond to changes patterns in demand.

Not yet confirmed, and this purely from a BloombergTV analyst.

AA1818


“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2721 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8503 times:



Quoting AA1818 (Thread starter):
An announcement is expected today from AF on some key performance indicators and, according to the analyst, the AF-KLM group could remove business class from intra-European flights in an effort to stem losses and respond to changes patterns in demand.

Do you think anyone would notice? I can't tell I'm in C on AF on intra-EU services.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3011 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8399 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Why don't they just to it like LX? The seats are the same, and they "move the curtain" depending on how many C rows they have. You still get lounge access, you get a couple of complimentary perks in-flight and the world is still happy. No lost revenue, and some people are still glad to pay for C on intra-european flights - therefore generating additional cash.

IMHO it would be a bad move to remove it.



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offlineRobbie86 From Sweden, joined May 2006, 537 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8394 times:



Quoting AA1818 (Thread starter):
the AF-KLM group could remove business class from intra-European flights in an effort to stem losses and respond to changes patterns in demand.

I personally do not believe that this will happen. Removing business class would make international company's chose other carriers when going to, from and inside Europe. Would make more sense to remove, or decrease the number of seats in, F from some Intra-Continental flights.



Next flights: ARN-LHR-IAD on BA 319/VS343 EWR-LHR-ARN on VS346/BA319
User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1597 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days ago) and read 8246 times:

What intra EU biz class??

Oh, I see, these normal seats, save the one in the middle is free, accompanied by a wannabe meal instead of the 1/2 a coffee and 1/2 a croissant in eco?

Indeed who wants to pay for these "privileges" for a 1-2 hour flight?



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlineCaribillo From Spain, joined Jul 2006, 218 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days ago) and read 8225 times:



Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 4):
What intra EU biz class??

Oh, I see, these normal seats, save the one in the middle is free, accompanied by a wannabe meal instead of the 1/2 a coffee and 1/2 a croissant in eco?

Indeed who wants to pay for these "privileges" for a 1-2 hour flight?

I fully agree with that.

It is the same policy than IB and they are on the edge of becoming a LCC on in-flight service.

But, with this economical climate and the savage competence, what could they do?

They have to fight against LCC with schedules and main airport destinations, and that's it.
They cannot afford to have an "Orient Express service" at 50€ return ticket.

What is the market demanding?
Do the businessmen want to be feed during a 1h flight?
What they want actually? Schedules, punctuality and destinations.



Red, orange and yellow...with a big crown!
User currently onlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days ago) and read 8206 times:



Quoting Robbie86 (Reply 3):
I personally do not believe that this will happen. Removing business class would make international company's chose other carriers when going to, from and inside Europe.

I agree. One big selling point of having biz class within Europe is that you can better look after your premium long-haul connecting passengers.


User currently offlineCaribillo From Spain, joined Jul 2006, 218 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days ago) and read 8172 times:



Quoting LondonCity (Reply 6):
One big selling point of having biz class within Europe is that you can better look after your premium long-haul connecting passengers.

That's a good point. But what is the balance between the biz income and the looses of maintaining biz-class in short-haul?



Red, orange and yellow...with a big crown!
User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1597 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days ago) and read 8127 times:



Quoting Caribillo (Reply 5):
It is the same policy than IB and they are on the edge of becoming a LCC on in-flight service.

But, with this economical climate and the savage competence, what could they do?

They have to fight against LCC with schedules and main airport destinations, and that's it.
They cannot afford to have an "Orient Express service" at 50€ return ticket.

Fully agree.

I find it sad but the future for AF is indeed to follow the same path as IB I believe...
AF is suffering big time on domestic lines now because of cheaper competition from U2 and now the low cost train subsidiary IDTGV

Example: for my departure wednesday from Paris to NCE I had the choice:
IDTGV 80€ return
U2 120€ return
AF 220€ return

Considering I live nextdoor to train station either in Paris and NCE have a guess what I chose? Me, and thousands of other clients by the way...



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days ago) and read 8080 times:



Quoting ManuCH (Reply 2):
Why don't they just to it like LX? The seats are the same, and they "move the curtain" depending on how many C rows they have.

KL already does this. The seats are the same in the entire aircraft. The curtain is moved depending on the number of C seats sold.

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 8):
Considering I live nextdoor to train station either in Paris and NCE have a guess what I chose? Me, and thousands of other clients by the way...

In your case it indeed seems an easy choice. However, as someone who loves to fly, I would still have chosen U2...  Big grin



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1597 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7942 times:



Quoting Kappel (Reply 9):
However, as someone who loves to fly, I would still have chosen U2...  

That was my "usual" choice as I prefer flying too
Nevertheless, add to the 120€ some 10€ for the stupid RER train to and from ORY plus 4€ for the shuttle to and from NCE to downtown, that's nearly 30 euros extra!

So the U2 choice totals something like 150€ compares to 80€ for IDTGV....with the money crunch and everything, I believe that is what kills short haul aviation too



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4910 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7906 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Kappel (Reply 9):

KL already does this. The seats are the same in the entire aircraft. The curtain is moved depending on the number of C seats sold.

KL's intra-European "C" class is actually not even really Business (more like a Premium Eco) - they are just about the only ones who do not leave the middle seat empty.

BA, LH, LX, and AF, even though they currently use the same seat in C as in Y, actually actively block the middle seat (LX only on their A319/320/321 I believe; the Jumbolinos still feature a middle seat in C on the 3-seater side though they are assigned as a last resort).


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7876 times:



Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 10):
with the money crunch and everything, I believe that is what kills short haul aviation too

I can certainly understand your reasoning. Plus the fact that the trainstation is close to where you live. Generally, the train leaves you in the middle of the city, which can be very convenient.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 11):
they are just about the only ones who do not leave the middle seat empty.

Yep. Although the middle seats are filled last. But... they are indeed using the middle seat in Europe Select.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently onlineAOMlover From France, joined Jul 2001, 1305 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7794 times:



Quoting ManuCH (Reply 2):
Why don't they just to it like LX?

AF's biz class on narrowbody jets is already like LX. They move the curtain up or down, and block the middle seat.

That's why Air Liberté advertised the fact that they offered a "true" business class with wider seats, versus AF's economy seats.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbedmF4UMsI

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 10):
plus 4€ for the shuttle to and from NCE to downtown, that's nearly 30 euros extra!

Take bus 23 from Terminal 1, it takes a bit longer but the ticket costs 1€ only.  Wink
Ground transportation to/from an airport is always a rip-off.


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9377 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7758 times:



Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 4):
Oh, I see, these normal seats, save the one in the middle is free, accompanied by a wannabe meal instead of the 1/2 a coffee and 1/2 a croissant in eco?

Indeed who wants to pay for these "privileges" for a 1-2 hour flight?

Well, compare the highest flexible fully refundable Y fare with C and the difference is between € 50,00 and € 200,00 on most European routes. For that you get separate check-in, speed channel security, lounge access, almost double miles and priority baggage (when it works) at the destination.

When you fly on business, 50% of your Y ticket savings go to the taxman. Considering these facts, C is not such a bad deal.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineMozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2182 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7637 times:

AF's European business class is lousy, so no wonder fewer people fly it. Up to the point where they have to close it down.

It's so bad that improving it to a level where it would be attractive to travelers would be too much of a stretch. Basically, AF gets caught by its cost saving/service degradation strategy of the past years. So the only way out is the exit by the bottom, i.e. reducing service level even further or closing intra-European C altogether.

Quoting Caribillo (Reply 5):
They have to fight against LCC with schedules and main airport destinations, and that's it.
They cannot afford to have an "Orient Express service" at 50€ return ticket.

True and not true. Indeed Air France has to compete with LCCs - but what they fail to see is that it's not their business class which competes with LCCs, it's their eco class. They should therefore see how to reduce their cost base and fares in eco (they'll never reach LCC cost base, but the remained has to be justified by a different value proposition) - and upgrade its business class and make it more different from Y.

This is why the entire discussion about AF's high prices is irrelevant in this context. You guys are price-sensitive, so you aren't AF's target clientele for C class anyway. C class clients are more service sensitive. This is where AF fails miserably, which is why it now has to stop offering that product.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26993 posts, RR: 57
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7612 times:



Quoting AOMlover (Reply 13):
versus AF's economy seats.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbedm...4UMsI

LOL.. funny ad but quite true on alot of airlines.


User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2825 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7566 times:



Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 4):
What intra EU biz class??

Oh, I see, these normal seats, save the one in the middle is free, accompanied by a wannabe meal instead of the 1/2 a coffee and 1/2 a croissant in eco?

Indeed who wants to pay for these "privileges" for a 1-2 hour flight?

I totally agree. I fly often Dublin-Paris with Air France. The business class is a joke. Apart from a more decent meal, you have absolutely no other advantage. The seats are the same as economy.

So paying a high price for just a meal extra is a rip off.

(I'm talking only for the route Dublin-Paris. It might be different on other intra-European routes)



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineBaguy From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 546 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7394 times:



Quoting Panamair (Reply 11):
BA, LH, LX, and AF, even though they currently use the same seat in C as in Y, actually actively block the middle seat (LX only on their A319/320/321 I believe; the Jumbolinos still feature a middle seat in C on the 3-seater side though they are assigned as a last resort).

BA have just recently bought back wider seats in J, when I flew LIS-LHR the other day, the middle seat was more a half seat, like you would find in some cars.

BAguy


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30989 posts, RR: 86
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7260 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I don't see how this can be a problem for AF unless the Economy Class "cabin" is routinely going out at a 100% or higher load factor and they have to deny people wishing to buy tickets because of a lack of seats due to Business Class also having a heavy load factor which means all the available middle seats are blocked and unavailable for sale.

But at that point, you'd think a nearly full Business Class "cabin" would be generating decent revenues in an of itself.


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2013 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7173 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
Well, compare the highest flexible fully refundable Y fare with C and the difference is between € 50,00 and € 200,00 on most European routes. For that you get separate check-in, speed channel security, lounge access, almost double miles and priority baggage (when it works) at the destination.

When you fly on business, 50% of your Y ticket savings go to the taxman. Considering these facts, C is not such a bad deal.

That's more a reflection on how expensive fully refundable Y tickets are than a reason to fly C!



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9377 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6960 times:



Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 20):
That's more a reflection on how expensive fully refundable Y tickets are than a reason to fly C!

call it what you like, but paying €1020 for Y and € 1150,00 for C with guaranteed free middle seat, an excellent snack, at least when flying LH, is a reason to fly C. At least when you can make your own decision about it.


if the gap between Y and C on a short notice booking is greater moneywise, which may happen in these times, I can still go for Y and have most of the benefits as a status customer.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6918 times:



Quoting LondonCity (Reply 6):
I agree. One big selling point of having biz class within Europe is that you can better look after your premium long-haul connecting passengers.

That's the key point, as many J travellers originate beyond Paris, if legacies like AF or KL remove J service they would loose most of long haul connecting traffic to LHR, FRA, MAD, etc.

Quoting Caribillo (Reply 7):
That's a good point. But what is the balance between the biz income and the looses of maintaining biz-class in short-haul?

Long haul connecting traffic from within Europe will become more valuable as several european carriers are reducing or dropping long haul service at all, i.e OA, MA, LO, AZ, etc



744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
User currently offlineAA1818 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Feb 2006, 3435 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6794 times:

http://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/2009...-classe-business-sur-l-europe-.php

In French only. Still unconfirmed.

AA1818



“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
User currently offlineAA1818 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Feb 2006, 3435 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6769 times:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aM49vvUXQHq8

The bloomberg snippet stating that their source is le Figaro.

AA1818



“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
25 PanHAM : Its really not a smart move because many long haul C passengers have a choice called LH, LX, BA , even AY or OS still operating some long haul and if
26 Excalibur : As some have said it here, the AF biz class is barely a curtain... So, what's the point of keeping it that way? I have a question here: What are BA an
27 AmricanShamrok : Shannon-Paris is the same.
28 PHKLM : LH is no different; same seats, just the middle one being free. Bit better meal, but that's it. Reality is; people aren't buying European C-class, an
29 Viscount724 : That's exactly what they do, like virtually all other rmajor European carriers. However, the rows used for KL's Europe Select version of business cla
30 Post contains links Flyguy89 : Here's a video from an old Air Liberte commercial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbedmF4UMsI I always thought intra-european business class that the
31 Varig md-11 : Merci for the advice: I take the 23 sometimes but it's not just a bit longer, it's exactly the double in time! (mon arrêt=gare SNCF) I understand yo
32 Viscount724 : On many routes, most passengers in the intra-European busines class seats are connecting to/from longhaul flights in business or first class at the c
33 SSTsomeday : I don't believe it is much of a draw, is it? Do a number of airlines (including AF) still use the seating system consisting of a very alterable bank
34 Runway23 : You really can't compare NCE-ORY to the rest of the network. It's AF's shuttle service that already operates in a single class configuration and is g
35 Viscount724 : No, on AF it's standard Y seats with the middle seat empty. That's the case on almost all their major competitors. BA is the exception. That's what t
36 Ogre727 : What about connecting flights? when you are flying from say Zurich to Hong Kong via CDG, you still want the extra perks on the short flight... like co
37 Runway23 : There aren't any upgrades in Europe (except for some airlines like CSA), very far from the situation in North America. Those who ride in business hav
38 SSTsomeday : Oh boy - that sounds even less desirable.... Yes - THAT is the potential drawback to eliminating Intra-European biz class.... 'Sounds like AF/KL woul
39 PanHAM : Reality is, they do. The least on Lh is 3 rows of biz class which is 12 seats and most of them yield 10 times as much as the cheapest Y return fare.
40 Flyguy89 : Why wouldn't you be able to compare the two? So what if DL and the likes don't serve a meal on flights under two hours in domestic first, ask any pre
41 Bwaflyer : Convertible seating is still on all short haul BD A320's and A321's and on just over 1/2 A319's (G-DBCA/B/C/D/E/F)
42 Viscount724 : Very true. And in the U.S., far more first class seats are filled with frequent flyer upgrades and free redemption tickets. In Europe, almost all pas
43 LondonCity : Also you need the extra storage space in the cabin for hand luggage. I guess that long distance premium class passengers making connections will take
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Business Class On AF posted Sat Jun 9 2007 16:34:01 by Varig_dc10
Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights? posted Sat Jan 27 2007 18:22:26 by 8herveg
New 1st And Business Class On AF? posted Fri Jan 21 2005 15:07:23 by Businessboy
How Is Business Class On AF? posted Fri Dec 5 2003 17:08:20 by Jr
All-Business Class On London-NY Flights! (W/B763) posted Fri May 11 2001 01:32:23 by Wolfy
Business Class On Short US Flights posted Mon Jul 12 1999 07:27:23 by FLY777UAL
LH To Keep Current Business Class On A380 posted Wed Mar 18 2009 14:09:46 by A342
SIA Business Class On 772s posted Fri Jun 6 2008 02:12:33 by Gasman
Business Class On MU posted Thu Dec 20 2007 07:28:51 by BRxxx
How Is The TAP Business Class On The A310? posted Wed Nov 14 2007 19:21:41 by Avianca