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Delta Flies Empty Planes Across Atlantic!  
User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5085 posts, RR: 12
Posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 35715 times:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...a-flies-empty-planes-transatlantic

According to the Guardian:

Quote:

A major US airline has been attacked by environmental campaigners for flying empty planes across the Atlantic to be disinfected.

Delta Air Lines has admitted running "ghost" flights from the US to Heathrow to meet Australian quarantine regulations. Authorities in Australia require inbound aeroplanes to be sprayed with insecticide to ward off malaria and dengue fever. Delta is not allowed to carry out the treatment in the US and the nearest airport with facilities sanctioned by the Australian quarantine and inspection service (AQIS) is Heathrow, requiring the carrier to make a number of trips to the airport over the past two months.

Delta is planning to stop its disinfection trips to Heathrow at the end of the month, but is expected to switch to a Chinese airport.

Unquote.


Flying empty 777's across the pond, and soon the pacific. How much is that gonna add to their US-Australia bill? How do other carriers like UA do that?


Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
170 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAMSMAN From Ireland, joined Jan 2002, 1016 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 35681 times:

Very interesting topic.

Sorry KL911, I don't have the answer but really want to find out their next steps



Aer Lingus, Proud to be Irish.
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2917 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 35688 times:

How much does DL spend on this? they are flying a plane empty, no $$ in that. Why does'nt the US allow this disinfectant?


The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineCarfield From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1834 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 35619 times:

United does the spray when the plane is in Asia during the long layover!
United 747-400s spent overnight at various airports in Asia, such as Seoul, Taipei, Singapore, and Ho Chi Minh City. The SFO to ICN flight indeed spends the night at Seoul before returning to SFO the next morning. I believe that the spraying takes place then. Delta unfortunately does not have that luxury.

I understand the environmental concern, but am sure that Delta does not like these ghost flights too, but there are regulations to follow. Now the plane is flying further and the whole situation has just been made worst. So instead of a short eight hours to London, the plane has to fly all the way to one of the major Chinese cities!

However, I wonder if Delta can find a better way to handle it... maybe when the JFK to NRT is changing into 77L in the winter and with the plane overnighting at NRT, they can perhaps ferry the plane to Seoul or Shanghai or Hong Kong to carry out the spray. Any insider information!

Carfield


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22313 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 35600 times:

From the article...

Quote:
The Campaign for Better Transport, an environmental group, said the round-trip taken by Delta's Boeing 777 jets operating the Los Angeles to Sydney route summed up the "wanton" attitude of airlines towards global warming.

If the article is accurate, their beef is with the U.S. government, not with Delta. Delta is doing what they need to do to serve Australia.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineCarfield From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1834 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 35563 times:

Here is a thread addressing the ferry flights back in June:
DL9904 Delta 77L To LHR (by BA319-131 Jul 24 2009 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5085 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 35510 times:

Can't they spray in Australia? How does QF do this? Can Delta figure out a schedule with a RON in SYD? And spray there?

Or send atleast the77L as revenue flight from LAX to LHR to at least make some money...

[Edited 2009-09-08 16:02:06]


Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineCarfield From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1834 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 35511 times:

Sorry I have just reread the thread...

United has the spray carried on in SYD... their planes have a longer layover at SYD than DL (which is less than three hours)...

Carfield


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11151 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 35424 times:

How frequently do DL and other carriers serving Australia need to do these disinfections?


"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1965 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 35387 times:

Just curious, what does AC do?


Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineTimf From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 966 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 35215 times:
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Quoting KL911 (Thread starter):
Delta is planning to stop its disinfection trips to Heathrow at the end of the month, but is expected to switch to a Chinese airport.

I assume this is why the 777-200LR is flying DTW-PVG once weekly starting in October. They will probably be disinfected there.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7258 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 35187 times:



Quoting KL911 (Reply 6):
Can't they spray in Australia?

Yes. DL could ferry the aircraft from ATL to Australia and have it sprayed there. But that is further and more costly than ferrying to LHR to be sprayed. But DL cannot operate a passenger carrying flight to Australia with an aircraft that has not already been sprayed. So the cheaper option is London.

Once an aircraft has been sprayed (at LHR) then it can carry passengers to Australia. Provided that it can stay on the ground in Australia for six or more hours it can be resprayed there. It has to be resprayed once every six months.


User currently offlineJlbmedia From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 621 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 35154 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Where dose Delta get the slots from to ferry these planes back and forth to LHR?


JLB54061
User currently offlinePhoenix9 From Canada, joined Aug 2007, 2546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 35119 times:

Stupid question:
What kind of rule exists that allows the aircraft to be sprayed in other places around the world but not in the US?

[Edited 2009-09-08 16:26:05]


Life only makes sense when you look at it backwards.
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 35090 times:



Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 2):
Why does'nt the US allow this disinfectant?

Yes, I am wondering about this too...


User currently offlineLxmd11 From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 35094 times:

Wouldn't it just be cheaper to sub it in for a 764 on ATL - LHR because if I'm not mistaken that is where the LAX - SYD flight originates.

User currently offlineDl767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 34987 times:

This is so stupid, if UA and DL at the very least have to do this then why not make one of these places in like DEN or something for both of them to use? Something deeper is going on here

User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11151 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 34959 times:



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 13):
What kind of rule exists that allows the aircraft to be sprayed in other places around the world but not in the US?

A rule that treats the rest of the world as America's garbage dump.

I hope legislation is introduced to change this.

Quote:
A Delta spokeswoman said: "Materials used for this process are approved and available for use in the United States; however, according to US regulations, these treatments must be carried out at designated AQIS locations outside the United States."




"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlinePhoenix9 From Canada, joined Aug 2007, 2546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 34844 times:



Quoting BA (Reply 17):
Quote:
A Delta spokeswoman said: "Materials used for this process are approved and available for use in the United States; however, according to US regulations, these treatments must be carried out at designated AQIS locations outside the United States."

That just does not make any sense. There are far more dangerous chemicals produced and used all over everyday.

Due to the concentration of compounds involved, a household can of Raid can be considered more dangerous than what they use in aircrafts. I bet Delta can save a lot of money if they just start spraying their planes with Raid  Yeah sure



Life only makes sense when you look at it backwards.
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5554 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 34677 times:



Quoting Carfield (Reply 5):

Here is a thread addressing the ferry flights back in June:
DL9904 Delta 77L To LHR (by BA319-131 Jul 24 2009 in Civil Aviation)

From reply 8 in the above thread:

"The Australian Quarantine & Inspection Service (AQIS) requires that cabins and cargo bins on all flights arriving into Australia be treated with insecticide. To satisfy the AQIS requirement, de-insection of Delta's 777-LR aircraft is performed every 8 weeks using a diluted permethrin solution. Although products such as permethrin are approved and available in the U.S., permethrin is currently not a registered EPA chemical for use in disinsecting commercial aircraft in the U.S. Consequently, treatment must be performed during layovers in countries outside the U.S."

The disinfection cannot be done in the USA until "someone" gets US EPA approval to use permethrin to disinfect commerical aircraft in the USA AND then gets Australian AQIS approval of that facility.

Also from that thread UA gets QF to perform the work in SYD as UA have at least a six hour layover, the minimum needed, DL have less than a three hour layover, so can't get it done in SYD.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineCOalways From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 357 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 34649 times:

Is DL making any money on this leisure route? It seem as this route may not last to long?

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21417 posts, RR: 60
Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 34579 times:

This has all been discussed and answered in the linked thread.

Maybe the environmental groups should be blasting the government of Australia for requiring the use of a chemical that the EPA won't allow?

Or maybe DL should schedule an extra 4 hours into the layover once a week, maybe on Wednesday, and cycle the planes that way.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22313 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 34525 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 21):
Maybe the environmental groups should be blasting the government of Australia for requiring the use of a chemical that the EPA won't allow?

Is the issue that EPA won't allow it or that no one has bothered to ask? I suspect EPA would say yes if asked.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 34465 times:



Quoting Lxmd11 (Reply 15):
Wouldn't it just be cheaper to sub it in for a 764 on ATL - LHR because if I'm not mistaken that is where the LAX - SYD flight originates.

The plane may not have a long layover in LHR. You'd still have to fly two planes to LHR, because one would be needed for the flight back to ATL. (I'm guessing slots and gate availability play a factor here). This is all speculation, of course. I'm sure someone at Delta thought about this before someone on A.net did.


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5554 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 34468 times:



Quoting COalways (Reply 20):

Is DL making any money on this leisure route? It seem as this route may not last to long?

Oh G*D let's not start that again!!!

See the following threads for EXTENSIVE discussion of this point:

DOT Approved DL-DJ Codeshare, Defers V Australia
DOT Approved DL-DJ Codeshare, Defers V Australia (by LAXintl Sep 3 2009 in Civil Aviation)

US-Australia Battle, Early Results Are In
US-Australia Battle, Early Results Are In (by LAXintl Jul 20 2009 in Civil Aviation)

There are others, search for DL & SYD/Australia. This point has been discussed to death over the last five years.

Just one point for now, LAX-SYD CANNOT be considered a "leisure" route! The extensive business traffic is the reason for the current feeding frenssie on the route.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
25 ATTart : You, can always tell when it has just been done. The plane smells so bad, it is very nasty stuff. It is really bad in the FA crew bunk room.[Edited 20
26 Phoenix9 : ...also, if EPA is not allowing it, why aren't the airline CEOs crying foul? The amount of money they can save to bring up their bottom line would be
27 KL911 : What's the effect on a human person during such a long flight?
28 DeltaL1011man : I believe the LR flight to Asia will be DTW-PVG. Could also be JFK-NRT though. believe you are right slots. plus AF did LAX-LHR and it didn't do to h
29 Post contains links Phoenix9 : Pyrethrum is a natural insecticide originally derived from the chrysanthemum plant; man-made synthetic chemicals of a similar structure have been dev
30 ATTart : For, me I would use my inhaler more often on the flight. I would not take my break in the bunk room if it just had been treated, for my asthma would
31 CALPSAFltSkeds : The last time DL ferried aircraft empty across the pond RT was to have some type of PR deal with their new paint job, which most of us on A.Net didn't
32 Wjcandee : Okay, let's review: The AUSTRALIAN government requires the use of this chemical. The AUSTRALIAN government requires that ITS agency approve the compan
33 DeltaL1011man : Maybe it the short run it wont save the airlines money?I'm sure they have a reason. No they did. This isn't Delta talking about it. Its a 3rd party.
34 Wjcandee : One other thing that folks aren't considering: context. Owning and maintaining a transport-category aircraft is expensive as hell. Even moreso when yo
35 Post contains links CALPSAFltSkeds : The link says nothing that this was sprung on DL after they began service. From the thread other airlines have figured a way to handle this weird law
36 Ikramerica : I'm not saying the Aussies are at fault here. Just playing devil's advocate as to why they aren't targeting others in the witch hunt. I don't think t
37 DeltaL1011man : or they could just do it this way they are but hey you know more than they do. jeesh I love how a.net has so many people smarter than the airlines. I
38 Cubsrule : If the 77Ls come more quickly than the economy improves (or, I should say, than demand for them expands), that would indeed be the most sensible solu
39 Clemsonaj : I finally get to use my real job in a discussion on a.net! Permethrin is acutely a neurotoxin, meaning that it affects the nervous system. It is prim
40 ATTart : I am talking about the confine area of the crew bunk room. The room gets no natural lighting up there. Even with the air vents going the air up in th
41 AFGMEL : These are not some arbitrary rules made by some pen pusher. We have a very fragile environment on account of being an island. Introduced pests have c
42 OA412 : Right and the opinion of a.net members is THE deciding factor for any airline. Besides, I'm assuming you polled all 104000 members before coming to t
43 Atlwest1 : Delta isnt some newbie to International flying. I can assure you they have people far more qualified then us who look at every possible law and scenar
44 COalways : Any one know how the route is doing?
45 Clemsonaj : That's interesting. Are you saying that's when you have to use your inhaler more? I could see how it could be an irritant and its possible that someh
46 ATTart : [ I normally take one hit of my inhaler before I walk on to the plane, and that is it. That is until we land and walking off the plane. But, when the
47 QANTAS077 : horse crap, that's what makes our country disease free and one of the safest in terms of agriculture, we have a massive agriculture industry that nee
48 Par13del : I find it hard to believe that the current solution of flying empty a/c into one of the busiest airports in the world for the spray job is the cheape
49 413x3 : Wow, I feel bad for the crew who has to fly back with that garbage floating around the air
50 DeltaL1011man : I missed it. Where are Delta's complaints? A 3rd party is the one your route the PR. DL didn't say they are for or against this soooooooo what are yo
51 LouA340 : I had this exact question. Does anyone know this. Because if this is done in Canada why cant DL just fly north of the border for it?
52 Kiwiandrew : There is no 'witch hunt' , Australia is not "targeting" DL in any manner . All aircraft arriving in Australia regardless of where they originate are
53 LTBEWR : I recall on a flight to Australia 20 years ago, they had to spray the cabin with an incecticide. I guess this other procdedure is a replacement for th
54 Post contains links Cha747 : Here is the link to the PDF that lists, at the end, the approved sites of permethrin application. Besides South America, LHR looks to be the closest p
55 Zeke : Two types, one involves spaying the aircraft every flight, and the other is a more general spay to get infestations of roaches etc that will breed in
56 Wjcandee : Once again, AUSTRALIA's bureaucracy authorizes the places that are permitted/trusted to do the spraying. The closest place is London. Pray tell, give
57 CALPSAFltSkeds : Gee, I must have overstepped my bounds by saying that most of us didn't like the paint job. A.Net doesn't determine what an airline does and I didn't
58 Pellegrine : Why don't DL simply delay one return flight every two months? Err, actually schedule the delay into their schedules. Yes I know it would interrupt the
59 FrmrCAPCADET : from my pest control days: The active ingredient in Raid is very effective against flying insects, a few minutes of spray, 10-30 minutes of activity,
60 Dfwramper : So why not just spray on each inbound (to Australia) flight? Is it a PR thing? Some airlines do indeed use the spray can application (FedEx for one),
61 UnitedFA07 : Just curious to what part of the ceiling is the bunk room on DL 777LR and for all DL 777's. UA only has a few 777's with the bunk room. Called the Lo
62 BlueFlyer : Residual application in a 777 takes about 6 hours, often more. During that time, as per AQIS regulation, the plane is tightly shut and no other work
63 Ikramerica : You didn't get my point. The witch hunt is by an ENVIRONMENTAL GROUP. They are targeting DL. But they should equally target the Aussie government for
64 BlueFlyer : The Aussie government does not force DL to resort to ferry flights to treat their planes. DL could either re-arrange their schedule, either permanent
65 FlyingAY : I was wondering the same. 6 hours disruption couldn't be that bad. Surely flying the plane to LHR and back takes much longer time (with the spraying
66 Kiwiandrew : and you missed my point - the Australian government is not forcing DL to do anything - it is DLs choice to fly to Australia and it is their choice wh
67 Ikramerica : So, force an airline to keep a plane on the ground for 8 hours in SYD, and work it around the strict curfew SYD has imposed, or poison your customers
68 Kiwiandrew : no , I suggest you actually read what you just wrote - DL have chosen one out of a number of possible scenarios . They could equally have chosen a di
69 Vfw614 : It's not that there are no slots at LHR available. It is just that the slots available are useless as far as commerical pax operations are concerned
70 R2rho : Forget about the governments, the pesticides, the fact that aviation is a very small contributor to global emissions, or anything else. For these peo
71 FlyDeltaJets : Does BA not fly to Aussie and Africa. Virgin as well. Also what makes Africa such "PRIME" breeding ground for diseases and not other places like Asia
72 QANTAS077 : I mentioned Sth America too, I am speaking exclusively about DL because the UK carriers you mentioned already spray their a/c, or they wouldn't be fl
73 FlyDeltaJets : I may have missed it but where does UA spray thier planes?
74 Vhqpa : For all we know these "Empty Atlantic crossings" are probably full of freight. Vhq.
75 QANTAS077 : answer is here for you.
76 Dano1977 : They could, but then it would have to be done at an Australian Govt approved AQIS contractor
77 Zeke : CX does, but we only occasionally operate to Australia, unlike DL and UA which operate such high frequencies.
78 9VSIO : Who knows, Delta might be using the flights as training flights as well...
79 Kaiarahi : Just because something's different from the U.S. doesn't mean it's antiquated or wrong. NZ has the same requirement. Both countries have an extensive
80 TN486 : Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm, an interesting comment. I would hope you are not suggesting that our "antiquated" rules we have to keep some of the worlds nasties ou
81 Burnsie28 : Because its not approved by the EPA. While the chemical is available in the US, its not used in a confined space that uses recycled air like aircraft
82 CALPSAFltSkeds : Can this spraying be done at TLV? DL has twice weekly service with a 772L with a 7 hour turn How about in the Bahamas? DL has a few 772LRs in ATL from
83 BlueFlyer : No. Let's see if I can put the "what about this exotic place" suggestions to rest once and for all (doubt it but...). To be acceptable in Australia,
84 Jtamu97 : I do not really see what the problem is...Years ago I flew many flights in Central and South America and the aircraft was sprayed in flight..Funny thi
85 BlueFlyer : I am sure someone would suffer some strange illness that a dedicated lawyer would have no problem linking back to the airline spraying some lethal in
86 Cubsrule : ...which, again, begs the question of where AC is doing it. They're only on the ground in SYD for two hours. Doing it for two carriers is undoubtedly
87 Phoenix9 : It is not that easy. The MSDS for these chemicals are extensive and foresee possible health effects at doses MUCH higher than what a person would be
88 Cubsrule : I might argue, though, that the legitimate right to protect is stronger than the right to protect in any way imaginable. If there were a less intrusi
89 Viscount724 : Why are these empty ferry flights such a big deal? Doesn't DL (and many other carriers) ferry many of their aircraft empty to maintenance bases half w
90 Phoenix9 : Less intrusive to who? All they are asking is spray your aircraft and do not bring any flora or fauna that does not exist. If there was a simpler way
91 Jimpop : So.... how did these DL flights come to the attention of the environmental group?
92 Cubsrule : To Delta, who has to ferry the aircraft to Heathrow...
93 Par13del : As I mentioned in my post, I am under the assumption that the spraying can be done in Australia, the caveat for DL is that the a/c would have to rema
94 Phoenix9 : Delta knew the rules/regulations before they started flying to Australia and I'm sure that the company was well aware of all the complications involv
95 Cubsrule : I haven't argued otherwise. Maybe it was inapt to use "rights" language, as Australia, as a sovereign, has the right. The more relevant question is t
96 Phoenix9 : Well if they want to start a service they should work out a scenario that is the best available to their company under those conditions. For Delta, t
97 7673mech : That is the cost of doing business. Aviation is an expensive hobby. These rules have been in effect for years. United has never had a problem with th
98 Cubsrule : It is, and for a carrier that is flying a widebody from the United States to Australia, it is probably an insubstantial cost. I'm not convinced, howe
99 Par13del : The compounds are irrelevant for DL's purpose, an approved facility by the Australian govt. body in charge of this issue is the key, as already menti
100 Cubsrule : This may be an esoteric distinction, but does a company who would make money but for this requirement and would thus start service but for this requi
101 Phoenix9 : Pardon me if I understood this incorrectly, but seems like this becomes more of a question about "like" to start or "really want" to start that parti
102 Wjcandee : Financially cheaper how? If it requires you to bear the capital cost of another 777 in the rotation so that departure and arrival times at both ends
103 AirNz : As you say, there is no-one at fault......therefore there can be no "witch hunt" and , thus, no Devils Advocate required. Australia, as a sovereign c
104 Cubsrule : It's simple economics. The cheaper it is to do something, the more likely a company is to do it.
105 474218 : I don't understand why anyone is surprised that aircraft are flown across the Atlantic empty for maintenance, yes fumigation would be considered maint
106 Cubsrule : Perhaps the difference is that a government is forcing DL to fly the aircraft somewhere for this m/x. No one is forcing any airline to have heavy che
107 Ikramerica : Exactly my point. The Aussie government is forcing DL to make one of three choices: 1. spray their customers directly 2. park their plane in SYD for
108 Fcogafa : Could it be that the journos got the story from the discussions on here? I would suggest that the journos, plus the loony environmental groups should
109 474218 : You don't think the government forces the airlines to preform maintenance checks? The MRB, which specifies the maintenance check intervals, is one of
110 Cubsrule : Not overseas... There's no airline anywhere that has to fly 8 hours to get to an approved m/x facility.
111 BlueFlyer : AC does Top-Of-Descent spraying. As per the EPA, many chemicals require explicit, distinct approval for every use. Permethrin is one such chemical. I
112 PPVRA : This is not heavy maintenance, though. In fact it sounds very light "maintenance" to me.
113 Cubsrule : As I said, I am aware of no airline that has no choice but to fly its aircraft 8 hours out of the network for maintenance. The only place it might be
114 KL911 : Wow... I started this thread, and was never aware that so many Americans would follow this European website, well, Swedish actually. Anyway, great job
115 NicoEDDF : At least a US citizen knows what is best for Australia...
116 474218 : When TZ flew L-1011, where do you think they should have gotten there D-Checks. There were only three places in the would equipped to preform them. M
117 KL911 : Not in Europe.. AF/KL , Lufthansa etc etc might ferry planes, but its only when they want it, no government involved. Carriers send their planes to m
118 KL911 : Where have you been for the last 10 years?? Chinese carriers have maintenace in AMS and KLM in PVG for example.. Best quality for cheapest price. How
119 Cubsrule : Note my use of present tense. I made no claim about the past.
120 Viscount724 : This website was sold to an American company a year or more ago. It is not a European website. And even when it was located in Sweden, about 70% of t
121 UALWN : So the Australian government should just bend to whatever the EPA seems fit to approve? And then should they bend also to whatever the European envir
122 Kaiarahi : So keeping pests and diseases that could destroy Australia's agricultural sector out of the country is not justified? Garbage. They CHOSE, presumably
123 FCA767 : Why not have a 7 hour layover? Better than a 14 hour return flight from london
124 Post contains links Dano1977 : Just a quick look on the EPA website, and i think they do approve permethrin as does the FDA for treatment of headlice and scabies. Information is he
125 Post contains links VV701 : No government requires any aircraft to be ferried anywhere. However all or nearly all governments lay down mimimum standards of engineering maintenanc
126 FlyDeltaJets : I think the bottom line is this unnamed enviormental group already has gotten too much attention from us. DL also flies empty planes to HKG for heavy
127 CokePopper : I believe I read somewhere that Delta will only be ferrying these flights from CDG to LHR . I think they are going to rotate the 777 into CDG soon.
128 Iairallie : Why don't they just swap the planes that need to be sprayed with the regularly scheduled LHR flight?
129 FlyDeltaJets : They were doing that.
130 Goaliemn : Does this impact private aircraft? I have a friend who works at Cirrus aircraft and he ferried a plane to SYD. They took out the passenger seats and a
131 CALPSAFltSkeds : I just looked at DL's sked and they have a RON at LHR, which provides a 2115-0820 layover, which is a 11:05 ground time. If DL has a 772LR on the grou
132 Cubsrule : There is another interesting distinction, though, at least with regard to airlines from the developed world. In BA's case, it's the British governmen
133 VV701 : It is normal to comply with the regulations that foreign governments require of non-domestic airlines who they have granted permission to fly passeng
134 BA84 : My friend is an Air Canada FA. She says the cabin is sprayed by the FA's, after landing, but before the door is opened. BA84
135 Cubsrule : They do, although from an operations perspective, this one is probably the most onerous. I certainly have not suggested that DL is doing anything wro
136 Gxman : And why can't it be used in Canada? But seriously, because no one in the US has spent the time or money to get the EPA and the Aussie's to certify it
137 BlueFlyer : It has been "done" in many different ways, but the most frequent follows this example (don't have actual data, just the process). Mon: 777 #1 ferry t
138 VV701 : Why not? If DL really has no what is described as "scheduling slack" they would be significantly better off if they flew the 77L to and from London o
139 CALPSAFltSkeds : DL used to have a morning JFK-LHR with an 11 hour turn. If they operated the AM departure one day a week with the 772LR(cancel the afternoon JFK-LHR
140 Cubsrule : Would they? What if the demand isn't there? What if they can't get appropriate slots? And, again, Delta is making the best of its situation. My whole
141 KL911 : Switching a 777 for a 77L isn't that hard. The normal 777 can have maintenance, and the 77L the spraying. DL has planes on the ground at LHR for a lo
142 Cubsrule : Right. I wonder, though, whether there's a less onerous way to accomplish the same thing. Is there something magic about this particular pesticide? J
143 KL911 : So swap the ATL 764 for the 77L once a month, at least you don't fly it empty. win/win situation.
144 Cubsrule : Evidently, it's more profitable for DL to do the half ferry/ half revenue flight plan.
145 Gemuser : Just a point. This is in no way a technical aviation requirement, so it does not come under the ICAO treaties or ANY aviation treaty/agreement. It is
146 AFGMEL : What's got me confused is why this is suddenly an issue just because DL is involved. This isn't a debate people. Quarantine is quarantine. Lots of air
147 Nws2002 : Various agencies in the Department of Agriculture, Department of Health and Human Services, and possibly the Department of the Interior. Most enforce
148 VV701 : It has become an issue because the slightly left, quite green, very middle-class, British Guardian newspaper found out that DL were ferrying empty ai
149 Superfly : Why is this even news? More proof the treehugging eco-freaks are turning over every stone possible to find a problem to scream about. For all the reas
150 Cubsrule : At least in this country, the acid ran fad largely died off because we fixed the problem.
151 Goaliemn : Its just as sensible for the US to not allow the spraying as it is for the Aussies to require it done. Maybe the Aussies need to allow chemicals that
152 KL911 : Nah, first of all, Why doesn't the US sign the Kyoto protocol against polution, and second, if this stuf was harmfull, it would never ever be allowed
153 AFGMEL : Because even though this may be a difficult concept for some nations to grasp, we are entitled to make laws that pertain to us and hegemony - no matt
154 KL911 : Very true. But I'm still not convinced that an empty ferry flight, return, to LHR is cheaper then subbing a 764 from ATL to LHR and still carry pax b
155 Cubsrule : What works and is safe in my yard doesn't necessarily safely work in an airplane.
156 KL911 : Makes no sense.... after the spraying they allow the plane back in the US, carrying passengers... So they know it's safe in an airplane.
157 Gxman : It is actually quite simple, because no one has taken the time or money to go through the certification process to get it approved. If Delta thought
158 Cubsrule : ...they know it is safe when applied by a competent company. No one in the US has shown they can do it.
159 Post contains images Superfly : You mean outsource and rely on other countries to produce goods we buy instead? I guess we can rely on Canada for nickel-copper ore for batteries in
160 Cubsrule : The mainstream view is that SO2 cap and trade fixed the problem. I've not seen a serious argument that outsourcing had a big contribution; if you hav
161 Superfly : The mainstream view also is that we can somehow stop the sea levels from rising if we rushed out and bought little Toyota Prius and didn't allow airc
162 SlowFly : After all the spraying, ferry flights and A.Net chatter, I guess both Malaria and Dengue fever still get into Oz when the first mosquito bites a passe
163 Cubsrule : That's not my mainstream, nor is it anyone's - outside maybe the Obama administration. You apparently weren't living somewhere that had acid rain pro
164 Gxman : What cannot be produceed here in the US due to environmental regulations?
165 AirNz : I guess with your 'logic' that makes it the two biggest polluters on earth haven't signed it then, right? Well, that certainly shows the level we're
166 Trent1000 : Why not? A significant percentage of Aus passengers fly to LA to go to Disneyland. QF has always had popular, well advertised packages for families t
167 Gemuser : This is of course true, but it is still not a "leisure" route, like say SYD-HNL or SYD-NAN. The primary reason for the route is business first, then
168 Cubsrule : Isn't that pretty difficult to quantify? Surely, some people take trips - especially trips of the length we're talking about - for multiple purposes,
169 Gemuser : Yes But I'll stick to my guns, it's firstly a business route! It would be just as hard to justify calling it a leisure route. Gemuser
170 The Coachman : So going by that logic, LAX-JFK (for all those New Yorkers who want to go to Disneyland), LAX-NRT, LAX-HKG, LAX-PVG are also leisure routes?...
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