Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Midwest 717 Retirement Dates?  
User currently offlineCOERJ145 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6057 times:

Hey,
I was planning to book Midwest Airlines(first time flying them) to go back to school in January 2010 from BOS to PHX via MKE. The Midwest website shows 717s for both flights. I was reading through the last thread about YX and it said that the 717s would be gone by mid-december. Is the site inaccurate or will they be around through January?

Thanks!

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7443 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6031 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Really? And what is replacing them?? Some of them are only a few years old, no?


Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6031 times:

The 717s will be gone by the end of the year.


I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineDLX737200 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1904 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5943 times:



Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 1):
Really? And what is replacing them?? Some of them are only a few years old, no?

When Last 717 Leaves YX, What Happens To Cert? (by N7371f Aug 25 2009 in Civil Aviation)

YX Getting Some Of Frontiers A319 (by Yx302 Aug 14 2009 in Civil Aviation)

Mexicana Confirms All 25 717s Will Come From YX (by MKENut May 29 2009 in Civil Aviation)

E190s For Republic? (by Expressjet_erj May 8 2009 in Civil Aviation)

They're outta here!


User currently offlineKnope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2893 posts, RR: 30
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5895 times:

The fleet transition at Midwest is happening quickly but is not finalized yet.

(a) The last of the 717's will be gone prior to or near year-end.

(b) Airbus jets from Frontier will be flying certain YX routes soon, some prior to year end according to Republic. Airbus will ultimately replace certain trips currently scheduled as 717 or E190, and it will fly new trips or new routes as well.

(c) Chautauqua E145 and E135 are replacing Skywest CRJ's, with the final CRJ's leaving in January.

(d) As part of the overall replacement, it's very likely that a fair amount of aircraft type juggling will happen. So some specific trips flown today by the and E170 may become ERJ or CRJ may become E170, or a 717 trip turning into an E190 may eventually become A319, etc, etc.

With all this pending for the next few months, they have chosen not to update aircraft type any further out than what they know as firm. So while it's a pretty safe bet that a trip you see as 717 for January or February won't be a 717, that specific trip could easily be E170, E190, or A319 by then.

While the aircraft type is variable, the routes and schedules themselves for sale today are probably not changing very much in the near term. Schedule changes are always possible with every airline, and there are likely to be route or frequency restorations in coming months. It's highly likely that the flight times for your BOS-MKE-PHX trips won't change much between now and when you fly, But it will very likely not be 717 at that point. My guess would be E170 or E190 BOS-MKE and E190 or A319 MKE-PHX.


User currently offlineCOERJ145 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5650 times:



Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 4):
With all this pending for the next few months, they have chosen not to update aircraft type any further out than what they know as firm. So while it's a pretty safe bet that a trip you see as 717 for January or February won't be a 717, that specific trip could easily be E170, E190, or A319 by then.

While the aircraft type is variable, the routes and schedules themselves for sale today are probably not changing very much in the near term. Schedule changes are always possible with every airline, and there are likely to be route or frequency restorations in coming months. It's highly likely that the flight times for your BOS-MKE-PHX trips won't change much between now and when you fly, But it will very likely not be 717 at that point. My guess would be E170 or E190 BOS-MKE and E190 or A319 MKE-PHX.

Thanks for the info. The only reason i'd book YX would be to fly on one of their 717s, looks like that won't happen though. Flight times don't really matter; as long I as get back for class.


User currently offlineJreuschl From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 545 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5524 times:

Their saver class really isn't any different than any other carrier standard class. Their signature seats are certainly nice.

User currently offlineKnope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2893 posts, RR: 30
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5422 times:

The E190s will have Signature, but the seats won't be any wider than the standard E190 seats. The E 170/175/190 have wider seats in general then many airliners, and they are in a 2x2 configuration, but you get that on any E170/175/190.

The Signature section on the E190 will have more leg room, headrests and footrests which the regular seating won't. But at least so far, that seems to be it for Signature on the E190. Kind of like United's Economy Plus.


User currently offlineFutureFO From Ireland, joined Oct 2001, 3132 posts, RR: 21
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5325 times:

THe 319's are not officially coming to MKE. That is currently a rumour. Also at RAH we would get the bid to go to the 'bus as well. Also there is no finalization as to whether the YX certificate wlll still be around after the 717's leave in Dec. As of right now it will be Midwest Airlines operated by Republic Airlines.


I Don't know where I am anymore
User currently offlineUAL757 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 806 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5324 times:



Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 7):
The E190s will have Signature, but the seats won't be any wider than the standard E190 seats. The E 170/175/190 have wider seats in general then many airliners, and they are in a 2x2 configuration, but you get that on any E170/175/190.

Then why does SeatGuru show the E190 with 1X2 seating with 38in pitch (aka domestic F seat) for Signature seating?

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Mid...dwest_Airlines_Embraer_ERJ-190.php


User currently offlineFutureFO From Ireland, joined Oct 2001, 3132 posts, RR: 21
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5264 times:

The E190's that we have are 2 class and they configured 1x2. 10 seats in Signature and 84 currently in Saver.


I Don't know where I am anymore
User currently offlineN7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1712 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4909 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting FutureFO (Reply 10):
The E190's that we have are 2 class and they configured 1x2. 10 seats in Signature and 84 currently in Saver.

The first (2) E90's Republic got are used planes from some Europe operation. RW kept the configuration or slightly altered it for the C10Y84.

The remaining E90's are new deliveries direct to RW that actually have 100 seats on them but 1 seat is blocked off permanently due to RW's pilots contract that only goes up to 99 seats.

According to other posters RW is to reconfigure the first (2) E90's eventually to match the all Y configuration.


User currently offlineKnope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2893 posts, RR: 30
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4807 times:



Quoting N7371f (Reply 11):
The first (2) E90's Republic got are used planes from some Europe operation. RW kept the configuration or slightly altered it for the C10Y84.

The remaining E90's are new deliveries direct to RW that actually have 100 seats on them but 1 seat is blocked off permanently due to RW's pilots contract that only goes up to 99 seats.

According to other posters RW is to reconfigure the first (2) E90's eventually to match the all Y configuration.

That is correct. E190's #3 and onward are 20+79 with the 20 Signature being 2x2 with added leg room. E190's #1 and #2 will be reconfigured as soon as those two E190's can be rotated out for reconfiguration.

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 8):
THe 319's are not officially coming to MKE. That is currently a rumour. Also at RAH we would get the bid to go to the 'bus as well. Also there is no finalization as to whether the YX certificate wlll still be around after the 717's leave in Dec. As of right now it will be Midwest Airlines operated by Republic Airlines

Republic's Bedford has stated here in Milwaukee media that Airbus will be flying YX routes in Milwaukee prior to the end of the year, with Frontier aircraft but with Midwest's product. Exactly what that means is not defined. However, it's impossible that the A319 could be added to the Midwest certificate that quickly, so it will necessarily be Frontier operating as Midwest at that point. Painted in Midwest blue? With different seats? With Frontier's IFE disabled or operational? Who knows at this point. But they can't be on Midwest's certificate that quickly. Some have reported that when the 717's go the Midwest certificate will be surrendered, and that could be true. But even if the Midwest certificate is kept active and ultimately gets aircraft on it post-717, there's no way A319's could be on it by end of year.

This is a link to an audio interview, but I believe this was also stated by Beford in a TV interview locally.

http://www.wuwm.com/programs/lake_ef...?articleid=787


User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 2002 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4735 times:

Any word yet on where the 717's are going? It would be kind of funny if they went to FL and ended up back at MKE.

User currently offlineMke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2453 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4735 times:



Quoting COERJ145 (Thread starter):
I was planning to book Midwest Airlines(first time flying them) to go back to school in January 2010 from BOS to PHX via MKE. The Midwest website shows 717s for both flights. I was reading through the last thread about YX and it said that the 717s would be gone by mid-december. Is the site inaccurate or will they be around through January?

I booked PHX-MKE on YX's 717 a while ago only have it to changed to an E190 a week after purchase.  banghead  Needless to say I was pissed as I wanted to get on their 717 one last time.

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 4):
(c) Chautauqua E145 and E135 are replacing Skywest CRJ's, with the final CRJ's leaving in January.

Anyone happen to know the final breakdown of E135s/145s?



Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
User currently offlineFutureFO From Ireland, joined Oct 2001, 3132 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4712 times:



Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 12):
That is correct. E190's #3 and onward are 20+79 with the 20 Signature being 2x2 with added leg room. E190's #1 and #2 will be reconfigured as soon as those two E190's can be rotated out for reconfiguration.

We are getting a new 190 on the 19th. In our manuals the seat maps go to 100 seats. However we have received a bulletin that has the config being 10+84 and the other in a full 99 seat saver config. However it is always changing. We will see.


Also we have not gotten any information here in IND about the 319's going to MKE.



I Don't know where I am anymore
User currently offlineMKENut From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 699 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4691 times:

Quoting LV (Reply 13):
Any word yet on where the 717's are going? It would be kind of funny if they went to FL and ended up back at MKE.

Mexicana Click is getting all of the 717's that once flew for YX.

[Edited 2009-09-10 18:43:28]

User currently offlineKnope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2893 posts, RR: 30
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4627 times:



Quoting FutureFO (Reply 15):
We are getting a new 190 on the 19th. In our manuals the seat maps go to 100 seats. However we have received a bulletin that has the config being 10+84 and the other in a full 99 seat saver config. However it is always changing. We will see.

That's a good point to keep in mind. Things do sometimes have a way of changing.


User currently offlineTZTriStar500 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1451 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4378 times:



Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 12):
Some have reported that when the 717's go the Midwest certificate will be surrendered, and that could be true.

BB has already stated publicly in the last earnings conference call with wall street analysts that the YX certificate will go away once the 717s are gone. It would also make zero sense to add the Airbus to the YX certificate even if they kept it when F9 already operates it and RJET owns (or will own) that carrier. Why have two airlines that can operate the Airbus when one will do?

Answering a question from Bob McAdoo from Avondale Partners:


"Well, today, Bob, we own and operate three certificated air carriers. So we have Chautauqua, Shuttle America, and Republic. And they all operate separate and autonomously from each other from a pure blocking and tackling perspective. I mean they have all the regulatory management team members to dispatch planes, train crews, fly the airplanes, fix the airplane, blah blah blah. So the threshold question is Midwest will become a wholly-owned subsidiary of Republic, and it will act like all of our other wholly-owned subsidiaries act.

You're correct -- there are things that we don't do such as the airport customer service operation. We have done that in the past for various partners. It's just a business that we haven't tried to exploit because we're not sure that we actually bring a whole lot to the table there. And so from that perspective we would see all of the customer contact folks, whether they're airport customer service, luggage handling, aircraft grooming, call center, reservations, IT, marketing, distribution, revenue accounting, all of those functions that we don't do, Midwest as an entity, headquartered in Milwaukee will continue to do all of those functions.

There are obviously sort of two synergy opportunities. All of the other back office stuff -- accounting, finance, treasury, payroll, HR, all the benefits, administration -- all of that sort of stuff that will go through a transition period where that work will move from Milwaukee to Indianapolis. There will be the second transition issue, as you pointed out, is the fleet and the operating certificate. If in fact we end up with a fleet plan that's based on operating 190s and 195s out of Milwaukee, those aircraft will operate on the Republic certificate, and there will not be a need for a Midwest operating certificate. And therefore, all of the costs associated with maintaining the operating certificate would be eliminated."

Quoting MKENut (Reply 16):
Mexicana Click is getting all of the 717's that once flew for YX.

Yes, all 25 and they already have 8 in operation. They are being added about 1-2 month so will take about another year to deliver all 25. They will be stored in VCV with the rest until re-configuration and redelivery.



35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
User currently offlineSideflare75 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 613 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3734 times:

Right now the last 717 flight is to be December 15th.

The first two for September 902 and 913 have been taken out of service so YX is already down to 7.

We were told last week here in MKE by Republic Mgmt that the YX certificate will be gone once the last airplane is gone.

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 7):
The Signature section on the E190 will have more leg room, headrests and footrests which the regular seating won't.

There are no footrests in the first 100 (or 99) seat 190 but I don't know if that is because they just took it that way or it was intentional. It definately has more legroom up front though and could probably use a footrest.


User currently offlineKnope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2893 posts, RR: 30
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3278 times:



Quoting Sideflare75 (Reply 19):
We were told last week here in MKE by Republic Mgmt that the YX certificate will be gone once the last airplane is gone.

Thanks, Sideflare. I didn't remember where I'd heard that, but now I remember you posted that a few days ago.

Assuming there is no scope-clause reason for Republic to keep the Midwest certificate to circumvent other rules, the only reason I can think of is that the DoT award slots at DCA given to Midwest could be revoked. I think that's just a pair of slots for an additional MCI-DCA-MCI round trip. They also received an award for DSM-DCA-DSM but returned those (2003) when they discontinued the route. They had applied for slots for a 5th MKE-DCA-MKE but those were awarded elsewhere, twice. I think their other DCA operations are flown with slots owned or leased by YX.

Not positive if the award slots are in danger, but when AA bought TW, TW's award slots for LAX-DCA-LAX were not transferred to AA, and AS got them instead.


User currently offlineN7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1712 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2329 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I always thought FAA certificates were of extreme value. I mean...look at what NWA Inc did to buy Independence Air's certificate in bankruptcy court so NW could launch Compass. So I don't quite understand the shutting down of YX's certificate. But I guess when you already have 3, soon to be 4 with F9, there's no need for 5.

That said...it's really a fraud that Midwest won't be an airline. Just a marketing name.


User currently offlineMKENut From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 699 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2293 times:



Quoting N7371f (Reply 21):
So I don't quite understand the shutting down of YX's certificate.

Especially if they could lose DCA slots.


User currently offlineLoggat From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 666 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2219 times:

I don't think the slots are certificate specific. For example, Republic owns a bunch of slots in DCA that it leases to USAirways. I suspect those YX slots will easily transfer to another Republic subsidiary. They will be surrendering the certificate after the last 717 is gone, as there is zero need for the certificate at that point.


There are 3 types of people in this world, those that can count, and those that can't.
User currently offlineKnope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2893 posts, RR: 30
Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2206 times:

It's not the slots at DCA or LGA which Midwest owns or leases. Those are now owned or leased by Republic.

It's the special awards slots granted by the DoT to increase service at DCA to underserved markets or to airlines with a small presence at DCA. Those are very much awarded specific to an airline and to a market.

(a) If you try to use those slots for different flying, they get revoked. AirTran tried multiple times to move these slots from the awarded routes to other routes and were denied. I believe Spirit just went ahead with it and had them revoked.

(b) If an airline is purchased, it's not clear if these rights go to the purchasing airline or of they are revoked and put up for bids. The only case I can think of is that TWA was awarded a pair of these special DCA slots to fly DCA-LAX nonstop. When American bought TWA, the DoT took back those rights and awarded them to Alaska, who now has the DCA-LAX nonstop rights. This *may* not be exactly the same because those special DCA slots were also tied to an exception in DCA's normal perimeter rule. Nor is American a tiny operator at DCA, either. So this case may or may not suggest Midwest will lose their special-award slots.

If they do lose them, they'll be put up for bids again and it is possible that they could rebid and re-receive them. But if they go up for bids there are other airlines who will propose using those slots to other markets and who could win.

If I recall correctly, Midwest has just one pair of these slots, used for a single MCI-DCA-MCI trip. They had another pair for DSM-DCA-DSM which they returned years ago. I don't *think* any of their other slots are part of this. So if surrendering the certificate means risking loses these slots I think it may be only one pair.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Current Midwest 717 Fleet posted Sun Nov 30 2008 17:21:22 by C767P
Midwest 717 Hit By Van In DFW posted Thu Jun 19 2008 16:33:06 by UMYTBNEXT
Midwest's 717 posted Sun Jan 27 2008 09:00:39 by Aruba
Midwest 717 On It's Way To SAN! posted Fri Jun 3 2005 17:36:44 by San747
Midwest 717 Question posted Mon Mar 22 2004 19:58:46 by AA737-823
Midwest 717 At SNA Today! posted Mon Aug 18 2003 18:18:03 by Lgbguy
Midwest 717 Noise Test At SNA Aug 19th. posted Sun Jul 27 2003 06:04:31 by LGBGUY
Midwest 717-2BL Tail Ramp Door posted Thu Jun 26 2003 02:15:26 by Triple Seven
1st Midwest 717 Rev Flight posted Mon Mar 31 2003 01:58:23 by Lgbguy
I Saw The First Midwest 717! posted Wed Feb 19 2003 00:51:09 by Wilax