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Why Did TWA Drop Flights Within Europe?  
User currently offlineCody From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1932 posts, RR: 9
Posted (13 years 7 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2436 times:

Remember Athens to Cairo, Tel Aviv, Rome, and Paris not to mention the CDG hub? What happened?

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offline747buff From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (13 years 7 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2381 times:

I think the main reason was terrorism. In June 1985, a TWA 727 flying from ATH to FCO was hijacked to the Middle East, and some passengers held hostage for 17 days. A year later, in April of '86, a bomb exploded under a seat on an FCO-ATH flight, and four passengers were sucked out of a hole blown in the side of the aircraft. They ended the most of the intra-European routes after that incident.


At Eastern, we earn our wings every day!
User currently offlineVirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (13 years 7 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2347 times:

TWA to the end still keeps CDG as it's Euro hub but canceled most intra euro routes to terrorism from abraod as well as the bad PR that came with the two terrorist attacks. Also due to this their 7272s were flying less than half empty. I don't think Ichan had messed with too many of the routes except for selling TWA's LHR authority.


"FUIMUS"
User currently offlineRyanair From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 654 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (13 years 7 months 5 days ago) and read 2326 times:

Paris I'm affraid only has two flights a day, 1 to JFK and 1 to STL, it's no hub.

The Intra European flights are very long gone, I should imagine flying aircraft for just two sectors a day wasn't economic when they could be more highly utilised domestically.


User currently offlineWishihadalife From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (13 years 7 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2330 times:

Dunno if you noticed, but TWA went bankrupt.

User currently offlineCody From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1932 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (13 years 7 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2308 times:

Well today I was in the library and found that the bilateral agreement between the US and France went sour. That is why TWA dropped everything out of CDG that was not back to the US I am assuming. As for the routes that weren't involved in the CDG deal, I guess I will rely on what you good people have said. They weren't profitable.

User currently offlineIloveA340 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 2100 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (13 years 7 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2281 times:

there was no money for them in europe

User currently offlineVirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (13 years 7 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2270 times:

I don't think the euro routes out of CDG was profitable after the two terrorism fiascos that TWA had that included fatalities as well as bad PR but their JFK-CDG and STL-CDG as well as BOS-CDG were profitable and I think they still are the most profitable Euro rote out of JFK to my knowledge(next to LHR/LGW of course)


"FUIMUS"
User currently offlineContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (13 years 7 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2267 times:

Terrorism, airline economics, and TWA's diminished position in Europe following the tragic sale of its
London routes to AA for a pittance (thanks to Mr.
Icahn) resulted in the intra-Europe routes being
pulled.

Honestly, they didn't quite work. I often flew TWA
L1011's from GVA to CDG, connecting to a flight to
New York and the flights were almost always empty.
TWA did not have the hub and spoke structure at
JFK to support many flights to Europe and as such,
many were dropped.

ContinentalEWR


User currently offlineVirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (13 years 7 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2245 times:

ContinentalEWR; Why JFK wasn't good enough? Why? They were great in Spain and CDG out of JFK and I think Italy before they pulled out. Was this because of Karabu?

I personally think the intra Euro routes were done Ichan or no Ichan. The Berlin wall had fell and Europeans began to be patriotic and fly their national carriers. When I flew those routes with TW they were flying less than full 727s. My dad said the same about PA in 1985 when he flew them. PA and TW time had come. Ichan was bought in by TWA execs to save the company but he destroyed it but yet delaying it's eventual death. He was a sadistic wolf in sheep's clothing. Economists and Wall St predicted them dead in 1991 or 92 with PA and EAL. But TW struggled in vein for 11 years to survive slowly increasing revenue but unfortionatly it did not show in their profits. I think if Ichan did not come in then TWA would have gone with EAL and PA.



"FUIMUS"
User currently offlineCactusA319 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 2918 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (13 years 7 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2248 times:


TWA brought in Icahn to avoid being taken over by Frank Lorenzo's Texas Air Corp. The unions in particular were terrified of Lorenzo considering his track record of union busting at CO and EA. So they assume that this corparte raider know as Icahn is going to come in and be the white knight and save the day. And at first it worked-the last time they made a profit was right after Icahn stepped in. However, after that everything started going to hell and Icahn started selling off assets, including the LHR authorities. The guy didn't really know much about running an airline-he never ordered new planes because he saw nothing wrong with just using the old ones they still had because they were still "good". Mind you they were gas-guzzling, uneconomic heaps that needed to be replaced. Finally when he figured out that he couldn't cut it in the airline industry, he just raped the company and took it for all they had. Other board members tried keeping the airline alive and cut a deal with the devil (Ichan) so to speak...but most of you know this, and the rest as they say is history.

Kinda makes you wonder how Lorenzo would have done. For all the crap he got, at least he KNEW how to run an airline.





User currently offlineBove From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (13 years 7 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2238 times:

Face it...it makes more sense to run three airplanes JFK-CDG, JFK-FRA, JFK-LGW than run one JFK-CDG and make all your pax connect---especially if the loads are high enough.

Besides, European trunk routes demand high frequency. One daily TWA 727 doesn't quite cut it.


User currently offlineVirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (13 years 7 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2222 times:

Bove; The Euro routes were not making profits for TW and PA after the Berlin Wall fell and Lufthansa was allowed in East Germany. Germans along with many Europeans became patrotic and flew the natioanl airlines instead.


"FUIMUS"
User currently offlineRyanair From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 654 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (13 years 7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2203 times:

VirginA340: I don't know where you've got this idea about Europeans suddenly discovering some deep rooted but dorment aeronortical nationalism when the Berlin Wall fell. I'm sorry, but sitting in the travel agents buying seats, that great historic event was the last thing on peoples minds. You mentioned PA, between 1986 and 1991 PA flew more people across the Atlantic than anyone (except for 6 months after Lockerbie), seeing substantial growth (despite less Americans travelling to Europe because of terrorism fears). I should assume in that case, there were more Europeans aboard them, so no aero nationalism (which is where I began!). Many US Companies banned their staff from flying US Airlines overseas because of terrorist fears at the end of the 80's early 90's. When I last flew TWA (Feb from CDG-JFK rtn) Americans were a definate minority easily 2:1.

If you look at TW's route maps from after the Intra European flights were dropped (1992/93), you'll see many of the cities (eg. Athens, Rome, Cairo, Tel Aviv) gained more direct services, or were operated as a same plane service coupled with another destination.




User currently offlinePatroni From Luxembourg, joined Aug 1999, 1403 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (13 years 7 months 4 days ago) and read 2195 times:

TWA flew for a short time on some domestic German routes ex Berlin as well. They used 727-100 equipment in the late 1980's in competition with Pan Am's 727-200, ATR's and Airbus 300/310 and BA's 737-200 resp. BAe ATP's. There was also Air France with A320 services between Dusseldorf and Berlin plus Euroberlin, a joint venture between LH and Air France, using 737-300. LH itself was not allowed to fly to Berlin before the reunification on 3.10.1990.

With this strong competition, TWA tried to offer something unique by serving a hot meal even on these 60 minutes sectors! At the same time Pan Am and BA handed out a bag of peanuts...

Nevertheless after LH was allowed to fly to Berlin again and bought Pan Am's internal German routes, TWA was not competitive anymore (not enough frequencies, outdated, noisy aircraft etc) so that these flights had to be ceased.

Best regards,

Thomas


User currently offlineOliver From Switzerland, joined Oct 1999, 144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (13 years 7 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2180 times:

Some 8-12 years ago I was very surprised when I saw a 727 TWA at Zurich. What route was TWA offering at that time from Zurich??

User currently offlineContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (13 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2165 times:

TWA flew to Zurich in several ways. At different times it flew to Munich (one daily, 727), to Paris (also a 727)
and on and off to JFK, with L1011's and sometimes, a
747.

TWA also used to code share out of Zurich on Malev
to Budapest and also flew 727's to Stuttgart from
ZRH, all very briefly.

ContinentalEWR


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