Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
AMR In Talks With JAL  
User currently offlineBluesky02 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 14667 times:

http://www.thestreet.com/_aol/story/...m_cat=Free&cm_pla=Feed&cm_ite=Feed

Could be interesting!

140 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTimpdx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 14622 times:

Wow, things are getting interesting. AA isn't going to let DL walk away 'easy' on this one. Should be interesting reading over the next few weeks, although I certainly give DL the leg up on this one.

User currently offlineBillReid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 968 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 14543 times:

Delta will lose this one. With the purchase of NWA and the agreement with AF/KL DL has a large presence at Narita. Neither the US gov or the Jap gov will allow DL some much scope.
AA/AMR will win at any cost.



Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
User currently offlineQqflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2243 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 14464 times:



Quoting Timpdx (Reply 1):
I certainly give DL the leg up on this one.

I don't think so, but that might be me being hopeful. I would like to think since JAL is a recent addition to Oneworld, and their long established ties with AA, would give AA the leg up -- especially since AA's been in negotiations with JAL for closer ties and a potential financial stake for several weeks. According to other recent media reports DL's courtship of JAL hasn't been so long in the making -- not that that would give them a leg down.

If AA/Oneworld loses JAL, it would certainly be a large loss to the network, and especially to AA. Here's hoping that AA makes the cut, and that AA/BA/IB get their ATI. Then finally there will be a level playing field for the world's three airline alliances.



The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineElBandGeek From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 750 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 14446 times:



Quoting BillReid (Reply 2):
Neither the US gov or the Jap gov will allow DL some much scope.

I thought the Japanese govt were the ones pushing the talks with DL to begins with?

Either way this is gonna be interesting to see playout, and I have to wonder if UA/NH are gonna be watching closely and intensely, or just sitting back with the popcorn  Wink


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15459 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 14301 times:

It will be interesting to see if AA opposes a DL/JL deal based on NRT slots considering that they are trying to get something similar with LHR. Either way this is going to get really interesting.


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5266 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 14090 times:



Quoting ElBandGeek (Reply 4):
Either way this is gonna be interesting to see playout, and I have to wonder if UA/NH are gonna be watching closely and intensely, or just sitting back with the popcorn

Popcorn? If I were UA, I'd be sending NH flowers.  Smile

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
It will be interesting to see if AA opposes a DL/JL deal based on NRT slots considering that they are trying to get something similar with LHR. Either way this is going to get really interesting.

While doubtful, perhaps AA will trade DL/JL for AA/BA. Would that even be a fair trade for DL?

-Dave



Totes my goats!
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15459 posts, RR: 26
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 14067 times:



Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 6):
While doubtful, perhaps AA will trade DL/JL for AA/BA. Would that even be a fair trade for DL?

Interesting thought. It could be kind of weird, having almost the same situation playing out on opposite sides of the world with AA on opposite sides in each case.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7127 posts, RR: 87
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 13270 times:

Struggling Japan Airlines Corp. has entered talks with Air France-KLM over a capital tie-up, a newspaper said Saturday.

Asia's biggest airline hopes to expand its businesses in Europe via the capital alliance with Air France-KLM, according to the Yomiuri newspaper, Japan's top-selling daily. The report cited no sources and officials at the Japanese airline, known as JAL, could not be reached for comment Saturday.


All speculative at this point as JL has been linked to every airline in the world now.


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8090 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 13191 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting BillReid (Reply 2):
AA/AMR will win at any cost.

Given history in deregulation Delta has been a follower, AA has been a huge asset buyer. AA got TWA's LHR routes and Eastern's South America system. Delta only got the Pan AM leftover of Continental Europe long after United got Asia, LHR and Latin America.

AA's management is the New York Yankees of the airlines business, they will spend whatever they have to keep JAL in the ONEWORLD fold. They have too much invested in Asia to let JAL join another alliance.


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4281 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 13100 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 9):
AA's management is the New York Yankees of the airlines business, they will spend whatever they have to keep JAL in the ONEWORLD fold. They have too much invested in Asia to let JAL join another alliance.

To the contrary, AA has a rather token presence in Asia, and more importantly, one that yields little upside to JAL. Again, it's not just about the capital infusion, but also the ability for JAL to rework its business model -- this is likely easier to do with an airline that has a large and committed network presence in multiple Asian markets. .



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3146 posts, RR: 35
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 12900 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 9):
Given history in deregulation Delta has been a follower, AA has been a huge asset buyer. AA got TWA's LHR routes and Eastern's South America system. Delta only got the Pan AM leftover of Continental Europe long after United got Asia, LHR and Latin America.

Yeah, Delta really followed the latest merger trend, didn't it? And the trend to Africa and the Middle East. And the asset swap with US Aiways was so passe.

Please. Not a single Delta senior executive, board member or even share of stock is the same as it was for nearly the entire period you are talking about. The current Delta team is the exact opposite of a "follower". If you can't see that, you haven't been "following" the industry close enough.


User currently offlineDFWEagle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1070 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 12885 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 9):
They have too much invested in Asia to let JAL join another alliance.

 checkmark 

Almost the whole of AA’s pacific network is focussed on Tokyo and is heavily dependent on their oneworld partnership with JAL. At present, approximately one third of AA’s NRT traffic is connecting to/from JAL. AA made a really big deal about how much their pacific revenues had been boosted when JAL joined oneworld and AA/JL co-localised terminals at NRT. AA was the primary oneworld sponsor of JAL and the driving force behind their recruitment to the alliance. I expect that AA will fight long and hard against anything that threatens their alliance with JAL.

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 10):
AA has a rather token presence in Asia, and more importantly, one that yields little upside to JAL. Again, it's not just about the capital infusion, but also the ability for JAL to rework its business model -- this is likely easier to do with an airline that has a large and committed network presence in multiple Asian markets. .

DL has a much more extensive network out of Tokyo than AA, but AA has tried to make their offer more attractive by offering a bid for antitrust immunity with JL, which tends to significantly increase revenues for both parties.

Delta would stand much less of a chance in getting ATI with JAL because of their much larger slot holdings in Tokyo, and because Delta has extra rights beyond Tokyo that are not free and open to competition by other US carriers. Without ATI, a DL/JL alliance could not extend beyond a simple code-share agreement and they would still be competing on transpacific routes. It would still be in DL’s interest to feed their own passengers onto their own intra-Asia flights as opposed to JAL’s. AA does not have that option and JAL knows that they have to feed all their passengers to them.

For JAL, the lack of a mainland Chinese partner is the largest negative point about being in the oneworld alliance.



Ryan / HKG
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4281 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 12776 times:



Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 12):
DL has a much more extensive network out of Tokyo than AA, but AA has tried to make their offer more attractive by offering a bid for antitrust immunity with JL, which tends to significantly increase revenues for both parties.

Delta and JAL can seek ATI as well, and if the Japanese play ball with Open Skies, they'll get it. DL/JL ATI offers far more upside than AA/JL ATI.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8090 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 12717 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 10):
To the contrary, AA has a rather token presence in Asia, and more importantly, one that yields little upside to JAL. Again, it's not just about the capital infusion, but also the ability for JAL to rework its business model -- this is likely easier to do with an airline that has a large and committed network presence in multiple Asian markets. .

SIR,

I am aware of AA NRT service from JFK, ORD, DFW and LAX to NRT plus ORD to Shanghai and ORD to Dehli. That is it but what is it Delta can give JAL at NRT, JAL doesn't fly to ?

NO question that AA needs JAL for beyond NRT connections, but where is Delta going to take JAL passenger they don't fly to, LAX, SFO, JFK, Hawaii & ORD all are served by JAL from NRT. BOS, PHL, MIA and dozens of other american cities don't have flights nonstop to NRT by any airline.

Delta can give JAL access to ATL, MSP, DTW, PDX and SEA, but is this really what JAL needs from a Delta alliance ? When JAL flew to ATL many of those passenger were going to New York. Delta hubs in the midwest and ATL provide connections to many cities but so does AA at DFW and ORD, too all the same top 100 cities.

ITS not because DL has a Salt Lake City hub who's new flight to NRT may be cancelled any time from what I heard.

This deal is about $$$, just because DL flies 757 to Vietnam or Guanhzou, China from NRT is not enough. JAL flies to those places too.

JAL was a late addition to ONEWORLD, but this alliance makes most sense for them for many reason with a common denominator, JAL's largest internatinal markets. Australia, Hong Kong, The USA and in Europe, The UK are all among JAL's largest markets. London is JAL's largest excutive and tourist market in Europe for JAL, what is Air France going to do for JAL in LHR, next to Nadda. BA could be a good ONEWORLD partner and invite JAL into terminal 5.

JAL has flown with AF some code share fligts from KIX but do these flights really make money? Many European airlines no longer fly to KIX.

Japanesse tourist and executives often go outside Asia to English speaking countries, One World delivers this to all JAL's important English speaking destinations, honeymooner to Hawai, Sunny California and Australia, shoppers to Madison AVE, Rodeo Drive & Bond ST. The executives going to Wall ST, the city in London or their corporations regional HQ in New York, Sydney, London or Los Angeles.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7320 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 12643 times:

Good news!

For once Im glad to see AA not sitting on their ass and letting opprotunities walk away.

AA knows how crucial JL is to its network and its not going to let JL walk away.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineSxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1250 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 12477 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 9):
AA's management is the New York Yankees of the airlines business, they will spend whatever they have to keep JAL in the ONEWORLD fold. They have too much invested in Asia to let JAL join another alliance.

Does AA have the money to spend on JAL? Between debt maturities, pension contributions, and financing a ton of new deliveries (already being done with generous assistance from Boeing), how would AA come up with the cash to help JAL?

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 14):
I am aware of AA NRT service from JFK, ORD, DFW and LAX to NRT plus ORD to Shanghai and ORD to Dehli. That is it but what is it Delta can give JAL at NRT, JAL doesn't fly to ?

DL gives JL the opportunity to have access to more slots and eliminate a competitor (who pulls down yields) on intra-Asia flights. All connecting traffic in NRT could be pushed to JL, which allows both carriers to use excess slots to expand their networks.


User currently offlineSeatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 739 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 12397 times:

I agree. It's nice to see AA put up a fight!

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7320 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 12349 times:



Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 16):
Does AA have the money to spend on JAL? Between debt maturities, pension contributions, and financing a ton of new deliveries (already being done with generous assistance from Boeing), how would AA come up with the cash to help JAL?

How could DL come up with the cash to help JL? Its not like either carrier is profitable.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineSancho99504 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 568 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 12229 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 18):

AMR has a very deep pocket as does DL, however AMR has a deeper pocket and isn't in the midst of the largest merger in the history of aviation either. I say AMR gets this deal done.



kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
User currently offlineNYCAdvantage From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 355 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 12200 times:

First of all I want to thank you for all your share knowledge & have loved A. NET for years now & read from all of you guys, sometimes bias, or hateful but always fun. Now I think that is good business for AA to look into if they can buy & if not, make sure DL & AF KL pay more, the question will be, if you buy, how will the unions at AA will react to when you are spending money for a Japanese company & not our own employees. could this be a catch 22, no mater what, I think they are doing the right thing to go forward with the talks, even thou it can be a risky one in my humble opinion. NYCAdvantage

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5214 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 12045 times:



Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 16):
Does AA have the money to spend on JAL?

They will borrow most of it, probably in Japan, at next to zero interest, using the JL stake itself as security - just as DL will do should they be the winner. Borrowing the money is the easy part compared to making JL profitable. The deal will no doubt include some assurances from the GOJ.



Consilivm: Cave ne nothi te vexant
User currently offlineMindscape From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 11929 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 14):
London is JAL's largest excutive and tourist market in Europe for JAL, what is Air France going to do for JAL in LHR, next to Nadda. BA could be a good ONEWORLD partner and invite JAL into terminal 5.

May be you are correct, but Europe is not only London and JAL is funneling more traffic through CDG and AMS with AFKL than at LHR with BA. BA flies to NRT only daily and not sure they code share with the two daily JAL flights.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 14):
JAL has flown with AF some code share fligts from KIX but do these flights really make money? Many European airlines no longer fly to KIX.

AF and JAL are code sharing not only on KIX, but on NGO and NRT. To my knowlegde there is no direct liaison between LHR-KIX, LHR-NGO.


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4281 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 11917 times:

Jfk777,

Your post underscores my point -- AA has little potential to aid JAL in its transformation beyond the cash infusion itself while an immunized DL/JL could engage in a meaningful rationalization of TPAC and intra-Asia capacity and traffic flows that results in a better outcome for both airlines.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 11769 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 9):
Given history in deregulation Delta has been a follower, AA has been a huge asset buyer. AA got TWA's LHR routes and Eastern's South America system. Delta only got the Pan AM leftover of Continental Europe long after United got Asia, LHR and Latin America.

absolutely not true.
AA has not engaged in a single significant asset acquisition since the LHR slot acquisitions and the Eastern Latin American acquisitions.

Yes, they bought TW and then have shut almost all of it down.

NW is a far larger airline and DL does and will retain a far larger part of it than NW has of any acquisition it has made.

Quoting Sancho99504 (Reply 19):
AMR has a very deep pocket as does DL, however AMR has a deeper pocket

actually quite the opposite. DL has more cash, more lines of credit, more assets available.... DL is simply a stronger, larger player as a result of its merger w/ NW and the benefits of bankruptcy.

It is precisely in these types of transactions that DL has an advantage... that is one of the benefits of BK reorganization that AA has missed out on.

DL is the preferred carrier by the Japanese gov't in these talks because it acquired NW's NRT operation and is the big dog in the market besides the two Japanese market.

AA will have to offer a much richer deal to overcome the benefits that can come from a combined DL-JL - and the Japanese gov't knows it.

AA is fighting for this deal to protect its interests, not JAL's.


25 PlanesNTrains : I think people get too caught up on names, and not enough on people. As you say, Delta today is not the Delta of yesterday, because the people there
26 Sancho99504 : As I recall, AA was the largest until the DL/NW merger, NW being 4th and DL 3rd prior to the merger. Assets and lines of credit aside, AMR has more c
27 NW : Northwest Airlines - NW had more cash on hand than Delta did. Together they have a nice sum of unrestricted cash.
28 MasseyBrown : I sure hope so; all companies act in their own interest.
29 Cubsrule : I wouldn't place money on ANYONE getting ATI in Asia with Obama in office. That said, on this side of the pond, AA obviously has a much better chance
30 United1 : If I remember the 10Qs correctly, DL has more cash on hand (as well as that 500 million dollar line of credit they count as part of their unrestricte
31 BigGSFO : Maybe some other alliance member should step up too. From a oneworld perspective, I'd like to think Cathay and QANTAS have a lot of vested interest in
32 Terryb99 : JAL could be the AS of Asia. Code share with everyone!
33 Zone1 : This is pretty interesting, especially if it is in DL's grand scheme to force AA's hand. Forcing AA to pony up a cash investment could really be detr
34 Avek00 : 1. A couple months ago, CO and UA, along with numerous other carriers, received ATI in Asia with only minimal carveouts for PEK. 2. Consistent with #
35 DeltaL1011man : they were and if Delta(who has more money and can get more money than AA) out bids them? Has anyone thought, that maybe just maybe, this is what Delt
36 MAH4546 : That's just an extremely generalized and stupid statement. Both AA and DAL are in similar positions to pony up cash for JAL. Neither has a significan
37 Mariner : If Delta were to get this, it wouldn't be the prettiest thing in the world for their balance sheet, either. When it comes to debt levels, Delta isn't
38 Avek00 : I think many here are also forgetting that Af/KLM is also involved - AA can, at best, offer solutions for North America while DL/AF/KLM can allow JAL
39 MAH4546 : And let's not forget that CX/BA/QF have a very strong and deep interest in keeping JAL alligned with oneWorld, and they can also get involved. Don't
40 Ocracoke : You might want to take a moment to learn about history in the airline industry before you type this... 1) Are you stating that the assests of Western
41 Cubsrule : ...but no one has anything like what DL/JL would seek in Asia. The only reason AA/BA will be approved, IMO, is that CO/UA/LH and DL/KL/AF are already
42 Ripcordd : JAL is not asking for a lot of money and they are not forced to take DL'S money if DL offers 10x the amount they are asking for. DL dosn't offer JAL n
43 Mariner : I doubt it would get them very far. Airbus is wide awake to that game and has shown the door to one airline, because Airbus believed the airline was
44 Avek00 : Actually, UA and CO have already stated they will be establishing a TPAC Joint Venture similar to the 4-way arrangement being implemented for TATL fl
45 777STL : Cash on hand and credit capacity won't play into this. It won't be a matter of who has the most assets, more so who's willing to give up the most to
46 Panamair : Actually, DL does offer something that JL can't quite get with AA: elimination of a big NRT competitor. Here's the problem: JL has already had plenty
47 LAXdude1023 : I think this is exactly what DL is thinking. However it could bite them in the ass just as easily as it could AA. JL is a financial sinkhole right no
48 OzarkD9S : I hope AA gets the deal done. Having said that, I'm glad JL isn't a US domestic carrier or there would be nothing left of their network in 5 years.
49 Avek00 : I wouldn't be so sure of that given the Japanese Government more or less explicit preference for a partnership with Delta. JAL can prefer whatever it
50 Airbuseric : JL/BA do not codeshare on eachothers flights between LHR/NRT. But, JL does codeshare with AF on some flights CDG/NRT. No codeshare excist on AMS/NRT
51 Jetlanta : Not true. Not true. This is a huge part of the incentive for JAL. What they are doing now is clealry not working. Avek00, I'm shocked how many people
52 Cubsrule : But it's different. You don't have an entrenched Asian carrier in that transaction. To analogize to the early 90s, it's NW-CO, not NW-KL. Those prese
53 Cubsrule : Is there actually a preference for Delta? There was some speculation that the government pushed DL because, initially, DL was more willing to play ba
54 DeltaL1011man : No need to be so pissy. How about "no AA has more cash than Delta" Or "your wrong AA is in the better spot" Jeesh. I agree Oh it could. We will see j
55 Avek00 : As a rule, I try not to dismiss dispositive facts when analyzing a scenario. In my profession, doing so potentially constitutes malpractice. I like i
56 Cubsrule : What, exactly, does DL/AF offer that AA/BA does not?
57 Avek00 : Other large Asian carriers, such as KE and OZ, already enjoy broad grants of antitrust immunity with USA legacy airlines. If Japan goes Open Skies wi
58 777STL : As of 6/30/09, DL has 8.2 billion in current assets. AMR has roughly 5.1 billion. Note that those totals include items in addition to cash on hand -
59 Cubsrule : Let's separate how I feel with what I think will happen, because I completely agree with this sentiment. By installing Christine Varney at Justice, h
60 DeltaL1011man : And if i'm reading Yahoo right then, DAL has 4,684,000 in cash and AMR has 1,225,000 in cash. Is this what you are seeing?
61 United1 : Thats kind of correct but also kind of wrong, those numbers exclude items like mortgageable aircraft and include assets that would be impossible to b
62 Sxf24 : No, it doesn't. Um, DL has a significant amount of unencumbered assets, largely as a benefit of the bankruptcy restructuring. The Q2 conference call
63 Post contains links United1 : Fair enough I must have been thinking of another airline, although I could have sworn someone on here said DL has zip in terms of unencumbered assets
64 Jfk777 : The "Old" DL that did those deals is gone, so true. Does Delta, NW wasn't cheap, how much have they spent on painting all those 744, A330 & A320's. C
65 BillReid : I suppose you are right if you consider the Jap gov to be one person who mouths off to the press?
66 Sxf24 : NW didn't cost anything. It was an all stock merger. I think the number for integration expenses that has been tossed around is ~$200 million, which
67 MAH4546 : What DOJ says is irrelevant. DOJ has no say in the actual decision. DOT will continue to approve ATI alliances and DOJ will continue to object to the
68 Mindscape : And ? what is your point ? we all know that VS is also flying LHR-NRT. BA is even not code sharing with OW fellow JAL, while VS which is not affiliat
69 WorldTraveler : But I don't believe it included Japan... correct me if I'm wrong. The US has not approved ATI tot countries that do not have Open Skies. I think you
70 Avek00 : Actually, the US government has been repeatedly willing to do just that, and did so in allowing UA and CO to operate in an immunized fashion for USA-
71 United1 : The only carve out in Asia was PEK... What DOT data? The DOT data that you used to say was flawed because different airlines allocated revenue differ
72 Cubsrule : Well, it's a bit more complex than that. As you point out, DoT has the final say in alliances. But the interesting thing is that Obama hasn't made a
73 MAH4546 : Hopefully not, but yes, that might happen. Until then, its status quo and ATI alliances will continue to get near-universal approval.
74 LAXdude1023 : The DOJ objected to UA/CO then the DOT approved it. I expect the same with AA/BA.
75 MasseyBrown : More than offsetting the current assets, DL has current liabilities of $11.149 billion and AMR has current liabilities of $8.27 billion giving each c
76 Airbuseric : I've to correct; JL does not fly CDG-KIX (it's doesn't fly to Europe from KIX at all). NGO-CDG will stop service completely next month and not return
77 Cubsrule : Correct, but political appointees serve at the pleasure of the president, so it could change at any time. As I said before, I don't think it affects
78 Jfk777 : Its well established that NW had hubs in MSP & DTW. what is your point, this thread is about NRT, JAL and Japan and AMR or DL investing in JAL. REALL
79 EMB170 : I don't know how much this matters, but don't AA's collective bargaining agreements become amendable soon (if they haven't already)? Will AA have lots
80 Keesje : I think regarding investments in JAL, the influence of British Airways and AF/KLM in the background reaches much further then many think here.
81 MasseyBrown : And the Japanese have a long history of British financial relationships. This morning's WSJ makes it sound as if JL and perhaps the GOJ instigated th
82 Ocracoke : You really need me to answer that? How about DEL, BOM, and TLV, to which DL flew starting the first day of the Pan Am Atlantic buy out. DL also recei
83 Commavia : I agree that the WSJ article did, indeed, make it appear as if the Delta talks have been going on in a way to drive the AMR talks which - at least by
84 WorldTraveler : The real question is what is available in current and near term liabilities.... I don't know the answer but AA has far more aircraft commitments on t
85 Commavia : Says no one. I'm simply offering it as a possibility. Damaging to airline balance sheets, but not necessarily damaging to consumers. And, historicall
86 Carpethead : Some perspective from this side of the pond. I wasn't able to read all the posts but here it goes. 1. Relationship between ANA & Asiana. OZ & NH are r
87 Cubsrule : It is axiomatic that competition law protects competition, not competitors.
88 Mindscape : Sorry I meant AF flies to KIX (AF291/292) with JL code share (JL5051/5052).
89 WorldTraveler : You bet they are in the forefront of gov't officials - and were years ago when some of those same gov't officials suggested a DL/NW merger. The Japan
90 Cubsrule : If that's true, why did they let JL try to negotiate with AA for months before intervening?
91 Post contains links NYCAdvantage : I have read about the possitive side of JL & DL also why AA & JL is a better fit, I wonder what will be the negative on any deal either DL or AA with
92 Pewpew320 : One thing I've read that hasn't been mentioned (that i've seen) is that KE is also in discussions with JAL so with AF/KL, DL and KE all interested doe
93 MaverickM11 : That'll be fun for the eventual winner--if there is one--to deal with I think there's a very real possibility for the "winner" to wind up paying a to
94 Sxf24 : Is it a pile of junk to the right party? Being able to rationalize networks and capacity, while retaining the most slots at both major airports at on
95 Mariner : I think it is a marvel that three debt ridden, money losing airlines can play such financial games. The only reason JAL is talking is because they ar
96 Airbuseric : Amen! I can fully agree with you. Knowing the internal situation on this company myself probably a lot better then most on this forum, I can fully co
97 Sbworcs : Do you have proof of this? Again - is there any proof to this. Other articles linked to above state that JAL have been talking to AMR since June? Fun
98 Sydscott : Exactly! That, along with JAL being a steaming pile of junk, are the most accurate comments I've read in either thread on DL and AA!
99 Airbuseric : Latest news in Japan is that JL CEO stated a few points; - conversations between JL and DL and AA will be finalized in middle of October, and more new
100 Jfk777 : Any changes to JAL's service to teh USA ? Does the flight to GRU make any money ?
101 Post contains links Keesje : Follow the money trail. JAL is talking to AF/KLM, they believes they have more. http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssC...ndRetailNews/idUSN1452655820090
102 LAXdude1023 : AA better come up with a plan B. Unless BA wants to jump into it with AA, I dont give AA alone much of a chance against KL, AF, DL, and KE. If BA come
103 Kiwiandrew : BA has a lot to cope with already : a major restructuring ; a huge pension deficit ; the merger with IB ; a decision on whether to bid for BD - I sim
104 Cubsrule : Money is a non-issue, as none of the players here really has the money. The second part of your point is well-taken, though.
105 LAXdude1023 : What you dont seem to understand is that NOBODY in the picture has the resources. Every airline in question is losing money. Money isnt an issue at a
106 MasseyBrown : The negative for either AA or DL is that an "investment" of some few hundred million will get them just a small minority stake of about 5%. They will
107 Kiwiandrew : what you dont seem to understand is that my post was not about money - in fact I specifically said
108 LAXdude1023 : And DL already doesnt have too much to deal with? They are in the middle of a huge merger.
109 Kiwiandrew : DL are nearing the end of a huge merger , as opposed to BA who are going through negotiations to start a huge merger - at the same time as negotiatin
110 Cubsrule : ...but BA would presumably have AA's help, wouldn't they?
111 PIEAvantiP180 : Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 109): hence my belief that BA cannot spare that particular resource to try to sort out JLs mess as well as their own ( regar
112 LAXdude1023 : AA needs a partner in that part of Asia at least for Codesharing purposes.
113 Cubsrule : No one is envisioning a situation in which BA is involved but AA is not...
114 PIEAvantiP180 : LAXdude1023 and Cubsrule, you guys are right on both accounts, i was just responding to the notion that if BA was the only party involved
115 MaverickM11 : I'm not sure BA has any self interest in a Japanese partner other than for the sake of maintaining OW's integrity. BA isn't connecting much beyond NRT
116 LAXdude1023 : It shouldnt matter as much to Europeans. A partner in Japan or South Korea is pretty much manditory for Airlines in North America because of the way
117 Airbuseric : JL tries to get along with AA and oneworld. When JL leaves this alliance, they have to pay a huge, huge penalty! (but probably DL or AF/KL, or Skyteam
118 Jfk777 : The stature of airlines Star and ONEWORLD have in Asia are much better then SKYTEAM's. Getting JAL would leave ONEWORLD with only Cathay in Asia. Star
119 LAXdude1023 : Perhaps a possibility that we may be overlooking is that DL, KL/AF, or whoever takes a stake in JL but JL stays in OneWorld or continues to Codeshare
120 Post contains links CrAAzy : Well it seems like BA and QF may be getting into the mix. http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/stor...cm_ven=YAHOO&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA
121 LAXdude1023 : About time.
122 MAH4546 : Indeed. I wonder if IB might through in support to. That article also says that AMR is prepared to better any offer by Delta.
123 CrAAzy : That quote stuck out to me too. Whether it's true or not, the folks at AA probably don't want that information floating around
124 Mariner : The Greater Fool theory seems to be alive and well on Wall Street. I'll wager the Japanese are smiling. mariner
125 MogandoCI : I don't see Delta actually caring about JL. Their part in the bidding process is either 1. if no one else bids, secure code-shared (and maybe revenue-
126 CrAAzy : LOL ... OW survived long before the addition of JL and it will survive if it is gone. If DL's AF/KLMs intentions are to stir the pot , it indeed may
127 MAH4546 : A "couple" is enough to make them the third largest foreign carrier at NRT.
128 Jfk777 : AA has five 777's to NRT daily from DFW(2) and one each from ORD, JFK and LAX.
129 Commavia : If I were AMR, I would be pursuing the JAL deal with as much vigor as possible, but trying to minimize the AMR investment in the new company as much a
130 Jfk777 : Hong Kong is one city AA should have served two decades ago. Chicago to Peking is coming next spring, April 2010.
131 LAXdude1023 : All of which I think are feasible, except I dont think AA will fly DFW-HKG soon. Its sad because if JL leaves AA's codeshare network, that doesnt lea
132 Sydscott : I doubt QF will be interested. They are actively trying to offload their stake in Air Pacific and the codeshare arrangements they have with JAL will
133 Kiwiandrew : up to a point I agree with you - but this does still look a bit like putting all of OWs eggs in one basket as far as Asia is concerned . Remember tha
134 LAXdude1023 : Unless CX/AA start DFW and ORD-HKG, they will lose a whole hell of a lot of business in those cities for Asia traffic. KE would probably increase DFW
135 Mdavies06 : Yes CX future in OW is not 100% assured given the increasing influence CA has in CX at least at the shareholder level. PVG would be an ideal hub in N
136 Post contains links AusA380 : see interesting link in Sydney Morning Herald website - collection of OW airlines in discussion around JAL http://www.smh.com.au/business/qanta...-to-
137 SInGAPORE_AIR : Qantas Airways Ltd. (QAN.AU), Australia's largest carrier, said Friday that the company wasn't in merger and acquisition or consolidation talks at pre
138 WorldTraveler : Funny now that you believe it is ok for AA to get into a bidding war but it would have been stupid for DL to do so. If its stupid for one, it's stupi
139 MasseyBrown : Three international alliances and two Japanese airlines. They need a third airline. Ultimately, I believe Oneworld will win, reflecting the Japanese
140 Mdavies06 : What JL needs is to cut the excess management overheads and the archaic work practices they have and to cut the pension liability. Either way (DL or A
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
JAL In Talks With Airbus About A380 Again posted Mon Apr 9 2001 10:09:23 by Na
Report : Virgin In Talks With El Al posted Mon Aug 10 2009 09:43:02 by IAD380
American Airlines In Talks With Citi To Boost Cash posted Fri Apr 3 2009 06:27:06 by CF105Arrow
Allegiant In Talks With Grand Island, NE (GRI) posted Wed Jul 2 2008 11:23:20 by FATFlyer
State Of Hawaii In Talks With Virgin America posted Wed Jun 4 2008 09:57:12 by HNL-Jack
Dallas Officials In Talks With CX, MU posted Sat Apr 26 2008 08:19:22 by 102IAHexpress
Breaking: CO In Talks With AA Also posted Fri Feb 15 2008 11:31:40 by Zone1
RFD In Talks With More Airlines / 2nd Best Month posted Tue Feb 12 2008 19:34:06 by Nopeotone
Ryanair In Talks With ISP To Begin '08 NY Flights posted Thu Sep 27 2007 21:57:05 by Nycfly75
AI In Talks With A And B; Eyes A380 And 748 posted Fri Sep 21 2007 18:17:14 by LAXDESI