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Decentralising QF International Flights From SYD  
User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4755 posts, RR: 26
Posted (5 years 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8025 times:

There have been plans to decentralise QF international flights from SYD, as stated by Alan Joyce when he first took over. He did mention QF is losing out significantly at other OZ airports to other international carriers especially when he mentioned ADL where QF was the last amongst the international peers namely NZ, CX, MH and SQ (the leader of the pack garnering 32% of int'l traffic).

It is now nearing the end of 2009 so I was wondering if any insiders had any indication of QF moving away from the SYD-centric strategy? If so how far along are they in achieving this? Is it economically viable for the airline to do so realistically?

Discuss away...


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35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5664 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 days ago) and read 7965 times:

QF has NEVER had a SYD centric strategy! Despite what Anetters and others from other Oz cities say. What its had is a "profit centric" strategy, which in the past has ment services were concentrated there. This would still be the most profitable strategy IF there was almost no competators in the market. As there are now plenty they have to dervisify their strategy. You could say that they have been slow to respond and I would agree.

The B787 order was part of responding to these competators, which is of course now seriously delayed. BNE is a good example of a city that could have benifited by now if the aircraft had arrived on time.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2981 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 days ago) and read 7896 times:

As much as I would love to see QF expand other airports, there just isnt the will to do so. There are many issues that they would have to overcome, with one of them being maintenace. having a centralised route structure means that maintenance can be carried out at the same airport and then the aircraft can be quickly back in service, without shuttling to another airport. The Benifirs of which if done well work well on paper but not always transfer well to the pax that the airline is trying to target.

QF has over the years has turned its formerly strong MEL base into a very weak competitor. QF has limited international loyalty in this market and with all the other options now available, often with much better service, those pax have moved onto those options.

From MEL the only international flights available on QF are:

LAX
SIN
HKG
LHR
AKL
WLG
ZQN (seasonal)

If you add in JQ you get the following individual routes (eg. not including SIN via DRW):

BKK
DPS
CHC

Your example for ADL is a great one. There is limited drive for QF to go into that market it seems. They had services to AKL from ADL & dropped them and have put service to asia via DRW on many occasions. Does this mean the market is not there? No, as other airlines have moved in to take on a market that clearly required more services.

The real issue is economies of scale at a base. The MEL base is now at a point where I can not see the scale being anywhere near a level that any benifits of this can be found. BNE is almost a ghost base for the airline and Perth even more so.

The drastic pull down of the network to prop up a SYD base to achieve these goals of creating a main hub in many ways has failed to achieve the goals set and has seen the Market share fall year on year due to such policies. The rest of the country outside of SYD have shown that transiting Kinsford Smith Airport is not a preferred option and other airlines have pounced as a consequence.

What can fix this issue? Hard to tell. Moving South American flights to MEL could achieve more work for aircraft to be based here and looking into what routes best suit a market, not just propping up services from SYD. A gradual movement of flights around the country could help achieve a broader base to counter any competitors, without an over-reliance on one base. The SYD base could continue to be strong and rely alot on its good O&D market and in no way needs to be weakened overall, but would be brought back into a position that best suits that market.


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2981 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 days ago) and read 7859 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 1):
QF has NEVER had a SYD centric strategy!

As much as this is what some believe, the truth is not always the case. QF have hurt themselves on the over-reliance on one hub. Australia is too large of country geographically to consider that all pax will want to often backtrack to get to a destination that could be services on a lesser frequency from their own city.

I agree that they did choose a course of profit driven restructure, but in many ways this has not achieved anywhere near the success that they had hoped. Pax have not moved, in most cases, to join QF services via SYD and have chosen to direct options with other carriers.

Policies can often be well intentioned but at the end of the day the outcomes are not always as successful as first hoped. The market dictates the success of change, not the airline or airport management.


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7777 times:



Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 3):
agree that they did choose a course of profit driven restructure, but in many ways this has not achieved anywhere near the success that they had hoped. Pax have not moved, in most cases, to join QF services via SYD and have chosen to direct options with other carriers.

Very True. I think BNE and MEL are the most important markets in question here but the whole thing needs to be re-examined. USA flights were a great example. They only were started direct from BNE because of pressure from the gov (with all PAX previously been forced to transfer via auckland/Sydney) and I dare say look at Singapore. 3 times daily on SQ, and 1 on QF. Ditto for Melbourne.

One of the big problems for QF has been, if we take the singapore flights for example, that they are competing with QF's hub to those flights. So, lets say we're a BNE passenger, who wants to go to say Hong Kong. QF and CX direct services are out because we want a red-eye flight (lets say work committments mean our Passenger needs to work a full day but wants to be there say before lunch time the next day). The logical option is to take SQ... or backtrack down south. SQ laregly won.

So how does QF compete? This one is tough because it can't really set up competing hubs with full 5th freedom traffic in asia. What I'm wondering though is if QF needs to do something competely different, like set up a mini hub with one really late bank in Brisbane for example, with midnight flights. And maybe exisiting times for Syd... and maybe An earlier bank for Melbourne allowing all east coast pax the option of a direct service or an additional one with a connection. (in theory we'd want this hub to be further north...so maybe even Darwin or Cairns.. but both of these cities wouldn't be able to provide the O&D passengers brisbane could). Can anybody Say A332?

In reality though i dont see too much happening? Why? hubs like SIN and DXB should still be able to achieve a greater frequency through being able to offer more destinations. Another long standing issue for QF is they never purchased the A340 or the 772, meaning smaller flights to the US, South Africa or even India were tough. Lots and lots of issues.

And lastly.. because i see Jetstar being the weapon of choice. Leisure traffic...especially where JQ is the only direct flight on offer, will take JQ. It's been proven now, unfortunately.


User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4755 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 7310 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 1):
QF has NEVER had a SYD centric strategy! Despite what Anetters and others from other Oz cities say. What its had is a "profit centric" strategy, which in the past has ment services were concentrated there.

Perhaps the argument would be better put forth when I say their profit-centric strategy caused them to be Sydney-centric.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 2):
having a centralised route structure means that maintenance can be carried out at the same airport and then the aircraft can be quickly back in service, without shuttling to another airport

It doesn't necessarily have to be the case. While the aircraft is being re-positioned, they can still take on pax on a domestic flight. How many maintenance bases does QF have around Australia at present?

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 4):
What I'm wondering though is if QF needs to do something competely different, like set up a mini hub with one really late bank in Brisbane for example, with midnight flights. And maybe exisiting times for Syd... and maybe An earlier bank for Melbourne allowing all east coast pax the option of a direct service or an additional one with a connection.

While your idea sounds great, they do have a challenge now as in they might not have enough aircraft to do so, and also the "proper" aircraft. They have the 747-400s, then the A330s and nothing really in between which a 777 would fit nicely into. This has been acknowledged by Alan Joyce in the article which I read and he mentioned missing out on the 777 was something QF should never have done. But still, he has the future to look forward to if remedying missed opportunities is on the cards.



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User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3069 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7051 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 1):
QF has NEVER had a SYD centric strategy!

I think what this thread needs is an actual discussion of routes from cities.

So lets start shall we? All stats are using today as the middle of a week on the QF website and are weekly totals. Excludes codeshares unless noted and includes 1 stop services where noted.

Perth - International

DPS - 7 x JQ A320
HKG - 3 x QF A333
JKS - 2 x JQ A320
NRT - 3 x 763
SIN - 14 x QF A333, 7 x JQ A320

JNB - 7 x A343 - codeshare with SAA.

My conclusion on Perth - 3 x daily service to QF's transit hub in Singapore, plus it is linked to QF's other key asian cities in HKG and NRT. JQ serves the two major leisure routes from PER being Jakarta and Denpasar and the codeshare with SAA connects the mining hub of Australia with the mining hub of Southern Africa. Overall I'd rate it a decent network with potential for JQ to expand to more South East Asian destinations like Kuala Lumpur and Bangkok, and for QF to enter PER-PVG and to increase services on PER-HKG. Perth will be a key growth and business city for QF well into the future and their leaping on all of the mining town connections intra WA provides a lot of feed, and FF members, for QF to capitalise on as Perth grows.

Adalaide - International

SIN - 3 x A333

Adelaide lets the team down here. QF should be serving SIN daily to connect into its hub along with DPS at the very least.

Melbourne - International

AKL - 21 x QF/Jetconnect 737
BKK - 3 x JQ A332
CHC - 9 x JQ A320
DPS - 2 x JQ A332
HKG - 7 x QF 744 - (onwards to LHR)
LAX - 7 x QF 744/A380
SIN - 7 x QF 744 - (onwards to LHR)
WLG - 7 x Jetconnect 737

NAN - 4 x 767/744 services codeshare with Air Pacific
SGN - 4 x 772 services codeshare with Vietnam Airlines.

So Melbourne is connected to all of QF's key cities in New Zealand, has twice daily same plane service to LHR via SIN and HKG and is connected to QF's North American base at LAX. The only services MEL lacks, which I'm sure it will get back in future, are NRT and PVG. Plus don't forget that you will see MEL as a key backdrop of the JQ push into Greece at the end of next year when JQ finally goes long haul. I'd also say medium term that JQ will also increase services to both BKK and DPS. So although the MEL services have decreased lately, I'd say you will see most markets re-entered as slots, new aircraft and the economy all pick up demand for travel.

Queensland - International

Brisbane

AKL - 14 x Jetconnect 737
CHC - 7 x JQ A320
HKG - 4 x QF A333
LAX - 7 x QF 744
MNL - 1 x QF 763
NOU - 1 x QF 738
SIN - 7 x QF A333

NAN - 7 x 737 operated by Air Pacific
NOU - 2 x A320 codeshare with Air Calin
NRT - 7 x 763 codeshare with JAL
POM - 9 x 752/763 codeshare with Air Niugini
TPE - 3 x A333 codeshare with Eva Airways
VLI - 3 x 737 codeshare with Air Vanuatu

Gold Coast

AKL - 7 x JQ A320
CHC - 2 x JQ A320
KIX - 7 x JQ A332
NRT - 7 x JQ A332

Cairns

NRT - 7 x JQ A332
SIN - 7 x JQ A321 via Darwin

POM - 12 x Dash 8 codeshare with Air Niugini

My conclusions - well you wanted decentralisation of the QF International network and, if anything, QF delivers this in Queensland. Sure Brisbane has gone backwards a bit but, on the other side to that JQ has built a decent International network from OOL and, rumour has it, will be re-introducing CNS-KIX service shortly as well. BNE, as the capital, is connected directly to QF's key asian hub in SIN and to business centres in HKG and NRT (via codeshare). It also has decent connections to New Zealand, the South Pacific and Taiwan via partners. The hole in the network is the lack of SIN service from OOL and direct service from CNS. I'd say it's likely JQ will explore ICN/FUK from somewhere in QLD to tap the inbound potential of ICN and to cater for the growing numbers of skiers etc heading to Fukuoka for the winter. I'd also say that, given the success of Air Asia on OOL-KUL, JQ will also explore OOL-SIN at some point. But again, from Brisbane it's a decent network connected to QF's key hubs and cities.

So back to the question which is QF decentralisation - from all of the above I'd say QF Group is fairly decentralised and, although SYD is a hub with QF own metal hub services, they still endeavour to provide a range of services from other Australian cities. Could it be better and more frequent? Probably and the opportunities for future growth aren't really going to present themselves from Sydney. Adelaide needs more service and obviously alot of growth from MEL and Queensland Airports is going to come from new JQ services until the 787's start arriving.

You also have to remember that for somewhere like Paris, QF wants to fly there daily but can't due to the current bilateral. So they are forced into codesharing with Air France to get the frequency they need.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 4):
And lastly.. because i see Jetstar being the weapon of choice. Leisure traffic...especially where JQ is the only direct flight on offer, will take JQ. It's been proven now, unfortunately.

Pay peanuts = get Jetstar. Australian, and foreign, leisure travellers have voted with their feet and wallets.


User currently offlineAirNz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6971 times:



Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 4):
Leisure traffic...especially where JQ is the only direct flight on offer, will take JQ. It's been proven now, unfortunately.

Why "unfortunately"? IF a JQ flight is the only direct flight on offer could you perhaps explain why wouldn't they choose it?

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 6):
Pay peanuts = get Jetstar. Australian, and foreign, leisure travellers have voted with their feet and wallets.

And you fail to recognise that the vast majority of passengers choose what suits their particular needs at any given time. Why do you seem to have a problem with that? I can quite assure that 'business' travellers also vote with their wallets, when someone else isn't paying for their ticket!


User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3069 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6797 times:

Well, AirNz, that was an altogether way too defensive and aggressive answer. Jetstar markets itself as the low fare carrier and people are happy to pay as little as they can for leisure travel. As I said, leisure travellers have voted for JQ with their wallets and their feet and that's their choice. I never implied or made any remark that I had a problem with it.

And as for Business travellers, they generally have significant amounts of QF Frequent Flyer points and most of the ones I know, working for a large corporation in the Sydney CBD in the Finance Department, buy upgradeable economy class tickets when travelling for leisure and upgrade themselves using points into Star Class, Premium Economy or Business. So far from paying the "lowest" fare they are happy to pay that little bit more to give them the opportunity, especially long haul, to upgrade. On JQ there is only 1 upgrade option from economy whereas on QF mainline there are 3. So I'll leave you to do draw a conclusion on who "business" travellers would rather fly for leisure.


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6743 times:



Quoting AirNz (Reply 7):
Why "unfortunately"? IF a JQ flight is the only direct flight on offer could you perhaps explain why wouldn't they choose it?

Certainly, more then happy to. The company is well... just run cheap and nasty. You're nickeled and dimed for everything, as the americans would say. You're stuck next to Kath and Kim the whole flight, if there are delays (and there often is) there's no attempt to rebook people onto other carriers and the overall experience is not that pleasent. and they're usually not THAT cheap. For flights from Australia to Phuket, for example, I can often find a SIA flight for just a tad more. Full service, a decent attitude from the crew (though in JQ's case its mostly company policies causing these issues and not the crew themselves...they're jsut forced to go along with it) in a pleasent environment, with AVOD and things like that, away from the screaming masses.

Even on short haul routes, JQ for travel next week OOL-SYD for example, are often coming in more expensive the QF for BNE-SYD. I know plenty of people who drive an hr to BNE airport because they are QF club members and REALLY dont like jetstar. Hell I'm about to do it myself in about 2 weeks for the next trip I'm taking to Sydney.


User currently offlineDocpepz From Singapore, joined May 2001, 1971 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6427 times:

It will be interesting to see how QF's strategy with Jetstar Asia pans out. After Temasek sold out, QF now holds 49% of Jetstar Asia with a Singaporean businessman holding 51%. For all purposes and intents, that Singaporean businessman is just a Qantas proxy, so Jetstar Asia is practically an Australian carrier using Singapore's very liberal international air rights.

As Singapore has open skies with all of Europe except France and Germany, Jetstar Asia can fly a daily service to Stansted using Singapore rights. The additional rights available to India and the Philippines, which used to be solely SIA's to lose, now has to be split between the SIA group of airlines and Jetstar Asia, which is the other "Singaporean" carrier.

Singapore and China have practically unlimited 3rd and 4th freedom open skies.

Last month the Jetstar Asia CEO said that they're looking to expand into medium-haul flights to the Middle East, Japan and Korea using A330s/787s.

From Perth, Jetstar/Jetstar Asia already provide connections to most South East Asian destinations that SIA/Silk Air fly to. If I am not wrong, the A320 used for the JQ SIN-PER services are staffed by SIN based crew, sometimes using Jetstar Asia aircraft and sometimes using Jetstar aircraft. Jetstar and Jetstar Asia practically behave like a single carrier.

Does SIA realise that Qantas through Jetstar Asia can effectively start a medium to longhaul hub in Singapore using the same tax laws and cost base that a Singapore operation can effectively bring them? They probably do. Once Jetstar starts operating Rome and Athens services (probably a combination of direct services from Australia and one stop services via Singapore using Jetstar Asia's rights) the yields for secondary European cities will plummet further.

No other Asian government would allow Qantas in with such wide open arms to form an airline to effectively compete against the national carrier, and take the rights the national carrier has fought so hard for, for the past 20-30 years.

SIA campaigned so hard for unlimited open skies between Singapore and the UK and Singapore and the EU. The irony is it won't be SIA that benefits most from this. Chances are it'd be the Qantas Group that does.

Yes you can say that Australia is very liberal in allowing foreign airlines to run domestic Australian airlines. But it wouldn't be quite fare to compare getting the rights on Singapore-Europe/China/India/ASEAN (more than half the world's population) to the intra-Australia domestic (just 21 million people spread across vast distances)

Of course, the Singapore government probably thinks that the extra economic benefits brought to Singapore through QF establishing a strong base here outweighs the losses SIA might incur through extra competition. But the fact is SIA will probably be the biggest loser from this entire episode.


User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4755 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (5 years ago) and read 5932 times:



Quoting Docpepz (Reply 10):
Of course, the Singapore government probably thinks that the extra economic benefits brought to Singapore through QF establishing a strong base here outweighs the losses SIA might incur through extra competition. But the fact is SIA will probably be the biggest loser from this entire episode.

And so rings true the words of Old Man Lee... SQ will be sacrificed if there is ever a need to.



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User currently offlineTN486 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 921 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5698 times:



Quoting Sydscott (Reply 6):



Quoting Sydscott (Reply 6):
I think what this thread needs is an actual discussion of routes from cities

well presented Sydscott, I envy your grasp and understanding of the subject. Thank you.sir.

On another observation of mine, and I observe with all humility - (and yes, its off topic and I may get rapped over the knuckles, however)
It never ceases to amaze me the amount of negative comment I read on a.net relative to JQ. Horses for courses. JQ looks after a segment of the market, which incidentally, is increasing year on year. Airlines are in business to make money, some do it better than others.
(I hasten to add here that I travel QF, JQ, and DJ). I travel with what suits me best at the time. I also find comments like "youre stuck next to Kath and Kim" quite demeaning, and I would expect others would feel the same. Yes, one is entitled to an opinion and I respect that, but please, Fair suck of the sauce bottle  Wink



remember the t shirt "I own an airline"on the front - "qantas" on the back
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3069 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5646 times:



Quoting TN486 (Reply 12):
Fair suck of the sauce bottle

I hate that phrase since KRudd used it.

Quoting TN486 (Reply 12):
It never ceases to amaze me the amount of negative comment I read on a.net relative to JQ.

It's a budget airline so criticism like that is par for the course. I've never criticised JQ because I've never flown them however if you like to pay peanuts for travel and don't need or expect free IFE and the like then JQ is an obvious choice. In the end it always comes down to $$ and that's why JQ is successful.  Smile


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5587 times:



Quoting Sydscott (Reply 13):
It's a budget airline so criticism like that is par for the course. I've never criticised JQ because I've never flown them however if you like to pay peanuts for travel and don't need or expect free IFE and the like then JQ is an obvious choice.

True and if I only paid $60 I'd know that's why Im sitting next to Shazza!
However if you want to go to OOL-SYD (probably jetstar's prime route in terms of volume carried) and you need a 6am flight (lots of busy people do if they're going to make an early meeting/connecting international flight) then its going to cost you $279 one way including tax.

(assuming that brisbane is not an option as the desired departure time is too early to make the commute realistic and too early to allow for a train direct to the airport)

Now... that price isn't exactly low cost. After paying that much I'd feel differently about some of the price related treatment.


User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4755 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5427 times:

Perhaps the need to de-centralise has never been more severe?

http://www.smh.com.au/photogallery/e...-sydney-sky-red/20090923-g0tw.html



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User currently offlineAFGMEL From Australia, joined Jul 2007, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5400 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 1):
QF has NEVER had a SYD centric strategy!

Possibly, possibly not. Certainly the perception is that it does.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 2):
QF has over the years has turned its formerly strong MEL base into a very weak competitor.

Last time I flew QF international was SYD-JNB. While some might view it as a honour and privilege to transit via SYD, I most certainly do not. Particularly that you have to backtrack, change terminals and wait. At least if it was MEL or ADL you don't have to do that.

Naturally there were no good connecting flights in PER otherwise I would have been happy to fly MEL-PER first.

Might as well fly SQ or MH.



B 727-44/200 732/3/4/8/9 767-3 742/3/4, 772/3, A319/20/21 332/333 342/3 , DC3/4/10, F28/50/100, ATR72
User currently offlineJbernie From Australia, joined Jan 2007, 880 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5310 times:



Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 3):
Australia is too large of country geographically to consider that all pax will want to often backtrack to get to a destination that could be services on a lesser frequency from their own city.

True, but when you have the populations of MEL,CNB & BNE within about 900km of SYD, and at least with MEL/SYD & CNB/SYD combinations the flight path of most flights take them roughly by SYD, along with NSW having an additional 2.5 million odd residents that would potentially be using SYD as their international airport of choice, you can see why they run so much through SYD. SYD + NSW regional + MEL alone cover over 50% of the total population of Australia.

The problem you run into is that up until QF/JQ get their 787s they have limited aircraft options regarding long haul services on lower capacity aircraft. Along with this, using SYD as the focus/hub should allow QF to fly their larger aircraft 744/380 to more destinations as they can get more people flying those routes without doing a local stop over on route. Along with this you get the benefits of locating maintenance facilities in fewer more focused cities.

I'm sure QF would love to be able to offer more services from more cities but it isn't easy given the way the population is concentrated, the way the major cities are spread & the locations to which they fly relative to the major cities.


User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3069 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (4 years 12 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5199 times:



Quoting AFGMEL (Reply 16):
Might as well fly SQ or MH.

So you'd rather add another 7 to 8 hours to your trip to JNB just because you had to spend an hour on the ground in SYD? Now THAT makes no sense.

Quoting Jbernie (Reply 17):
The problem you run into is that up until QF/JQ get their 787s they have limited aircraft options regarding long haul services on lower capacity aircraft.

Not quite. JQ is getting one of the QF domestic A332's this December bringing their fleet to 7. QF Mainline is receiving 2 new A332's this December bringing the QF mainline fleet to 7. And then JQ is scheduled to receive another 4 to 5 A332's at the end of next year. So in the next 12 months you will see in total an additional 6 to 7 A332's join the QF Group fleet. All of these are capable of flying medium haul routes direct from Australia or flying to Southern Europe 1 stop via South East Asia.

Quoting AFGMEL (Reply 16):
Naturally there were no good connecting flights in PER otherwise I would have been happy to fly MEL-PER first.

For Mel, I'd say the only new services you will see on QF will be the re-addition of NRT and PVG once the economy picks up. I'd also say that JQ will increase BKK and will probably try their hand at a direct HNL service. But for South Africa and South America you're going to have to travel to Sydney.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 14):
Now... that price isn't exactly low cost. After paying that much I'd feel differently about some of the price related treatment.

I'd call that good yield management by JQ.  Smile If you can charge like a full service carrier with an LCC cost base and service then you're doing pretty well!

The problem with OOL is that they don't have a full service competitor otherwise QF wouldn't have been able to do what they have done and would have had to maintain some peak QF mainline service. The question for QF is will they eventually be punished by those willing to pay for the perks in the OOL catchment? I'd say the answer to that is now because it appears that OOL is becoming the LCC hub for Southern Queensland with BNE being the full service hub. It's almost like ORD vs MDW in a way.

Now, since no-one else is going to do it and prefers to whinge about how much, or how little, service they have at their local airport, here is the list of QF departures from SYD;

Sydney - International

AKL - 14 x QF 763, 26 x Jetconnect 737, 7 x JQ A320
BKK - 7 x QF 744 (onwards to LHR)
CGK - 4 x QF A333
CHC - 7 x QF 763, 10 x JQ A320
DPS - 4 x JQ A332
EZE - 3 x QF 744
HNL - 3 x QF 763, 4 x JQ A332
HKG - 7 x QF 744, 3 x QF A333, 1 x QF A332
JNB - 6 x QF 744
LAX - 10 x QF 744, 4 x QF A388
MNL - 4 x QF 763
NOU - 3 x QF 738
NRT - 7 x QF A333
PVG - 7 x QF A332
SFO - 5 x QF 744
SIN - 5 x QF A388 (onwards to LHR), 9 x QF 744 (2 onwards to LHR, 7 onwards to FRA)
WLG - 13 x Jetconnect 737
ZQN - 3 x QF 738

BKK - 7 x 744 (J/V with BA - onwards to LHR)
ICN - 7 x 772 (codeshare with Asiana Airlines)
NAN - 7 x 744 (codeshare with Air Pacific)
NOU - 3 x A320 (codeshare with Air Calin)
SCL - 7 x A343 (codeshare with LAN Airlines)
SGN - 4 x 772 (codeshare with Vietnam Airlines)
SIN - 7 x 772 (J/V with BA - onwards to LHR)
VLI - 6 x 737 (codeshare with Air Vanuatu)


User currently offlineAFGMEL From Australia, joined Jul 2007, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 12 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5117 times:



Quoting Sydscott (Reply 18):
So you'd rather add another 7 to 8 hours to your trip to JNB just because you had to spend an hour on the ground in SYD? Now THAT makes no sense.

It's not an hour. It's an hour and a bit MEL-SYD. Then it's at least a two hour transit there. Then another hours flight and I'm back where I started. About 5 hours waste of time.

Apart from the fact that SQ's service or indeed MK is superior to QF.



B 727-44/200 732/3/4/8/9 767-3 742/3/4, 772/3, A319/20/21 332/333 342/3 , DC3/4/10, F28/50/100, ATR72
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3069 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (4 years 12 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4892 times:



Quoting AFGMEL (Reply 19):
It's not an hour. It's an hour and a bit MEL-SYD. Then it's at least a two hour transit there. Then another hours flight and I'm back where I started. About 5 hours waste of time.

So naturally that's worth the extra 7 to 8 hours plus transit time in SIN just because QF doesn't fly non-stop from MEL?


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2981 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 12 months 3 days ago) and read 4841 times:



Quoting Sydscott (Reply 20):
So naturally that's worth the extra 7 to 8 hours plus transit time in SIN just because QF doesn't fly non-stop from MEL?

We get your point on this but to alot of pax the other options are just so much better. QF have really fallen back in popularity over the years, particularly outside of SYD. That is not just a theory it is fact. There are only a few markets out there that you can apply such large detours to though which you are pointing to. Most markets really do not require huge deviations, with the only route that I can think of now being to Africa or South America.

If the other carriers have better deals or service standards they will definately look at those options first and the hatred that does exist for the SYD transfer is definately putting pax off. Unfortunately, only those outside of SYD can see it though and SYD residents remain oblivious to it.


User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3069 posts, RR: 19
Reply 22, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4737 times:



Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 21):
Unfortunately, only those outside of SYD can see it though and SYD residents remain oblivious to it.

LOL For 27 out of 31 years I lived in Perth. So don't give me that. Prior to moving to Sydney I connected 6 times to the US via SYD and had no trouble doing so. But then I've also connected to just about every US Airline at LAX, (I only think I'm missing F9 and DL), as well and so far haven't had a single issue. It's only you pair from MEL who apparently have a Sydney issue. Why would I not be surprised with that?

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 21):
We get your point on this but to alot of pax the other options are just so much better.

So you dislike QF that much you would spend another 8 hours in the air to not use them going to JNB just because your flight doesn't originate in MEL? C'mon, that's hardly representative of a sane passenger. Especilly when you can get to PER to fly SAA and gain Star Alliance Miles for doing so. If it was a pax that was purely shopping on price and didn't know how much extra they would spend in the air, or didn't care, I could understand.


User currently offlineJbernie From Australia, joined Jan 2007, 880 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4561 times:

I would say the biggest problem for SYD as a transit point is the separation of the Dmestic & International terminals. I know there are some benefits to this but it sure can make for a hassle no matter how convenient they try to make it, fact is you still have to cover that distance to make the next flight.

Maybe in amongst all the other pipe dreams they could add a free shuttle train between the two to simplify it?


User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3069 posts, RR: 19
Reply 24, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4548 times:



Quoting Jbernie (Reply 23):
I would say the biggest problem for SYD as a transit point is the separation of the Dmestic & International terminals

If you're flying QF it's easy because the shuttle buses leave from near gate 1 and take you to the International terminal. What they need in the JQ/DJ terminal at Sydney is the same and I'm surprised that the airport hasn't seen an opportunity for extra $$$ by building one.


25 AFGMEL : Not entirely, however MK do fly from MEL and their F fare is generally nearly half QF/SA. In any case, I fly long haul once a year in F and QF are ve
26 Sydscott : MK is at least in the ballpark as being on the way to South Africa and I'll agree that they do offer a competitive product to QF/SA on the route. Hav
27 Ryanair!!! : This domestic/international connection in SYD requires a bus ride in between terminals, doesn't it? Does one have to collect the bags and go though t
28 Allrite : Yes and yes. The bag collection is necessary due to quarantine and duty-free regulations - at least on the inbound legs. I would imagine that it woul
29 Ryanair!!! : I understand the need for quarantine but this whole set up in SYD is just SO DARN CUMBERSOME! Lugging your bags all over the place, up and down a bus
30 Airvan00 : Qantas operate a free transfer as do Virgin Blue. As well there is a train between the domestic and international terminals (2minutes travel, $5) . I
31 AFGMEL : Err, I meant to say J class, not F. I forget these codes sometimes We flew them last year in J. Superb, and believe me, I am fussy. Yes, but I don't k
32 TN486 : You aint Robinson Crusoe mate. As you rightly pointed out, its ones mindset that greatly assists. I feel that as a customer, you treat the "providers
33 Sydscott : I've had both good and bad experiences on QF with the good far outweighing the bad times in number. But then the best service I have ever experienced
34 AFGMEL : Flying JQ longhaul next week (starclass). I'll be interested to see what they are like. Flown them domestically and couldn't fit into the seat.
35 Sydscott : Star Class is the same as QF Domestic Business. It's not bad as things go though not as comfortable as a flat bed would be for an overnight flight.
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