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UA Response To AA ORD Buildup  
User currently offlineNoMoreRJs From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 471 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 9 hours ago) and read 10101 times:

Now that AA hAAs mAAde it officiAAl, how will UA respond to what AA is doing at ORD? UA will not let AA add 57 flights without a response.

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3817 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 hours ago) and read 10065 times:

UA hasnt exactly been known for taking any kind of action for a while. And realistically....what can they do? What do they have the resources to do?
I dont think their fleet situation puts them in a position to mount a formidable response to the addition of 57 flights.


User currently offlineUA_727 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 215 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 hours ago) and read 10024 times:

Well...this is definately going to throw a huge monkey wrench in things for UA - particularly because the company has been easing off of its grip on ORD to focus on other initiatives to strengthen the airline for 2010+.

The UA/AA rivalry in Chicago is brutal - I guess understandably so. And while this announcement has me a little concerned, given that it basically goes right for the kill against UA, I am excited for AMR and it's people. I have always been treated SUPER good by the professionals at AMR - and I'm always sporting my UA colors.

So thanks and best wishes....just don't get TOO carried away with this little plan...  Wink

-UA-



"AW - I'm on Board..."
User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 hours ago) and read 10022 times:

Probably not a whole lot because UA or UAX are have already been serving the destinations just added by AA for years (ABE comes to mind...) so maybe add a frequency or two or up-gauge to mainline for the most profitable destinations..


"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4273 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 hours ago) and read 9998 times:

Is United really in a position to respond? Their domestic narrowbody fleet has shrunk, there are no replacements coming any time soon, and ORD is not the only UA hub under attack.

Here is the problem. DEN is under fire now because since the WN/F9 deal fell through, WN is now trying to build up DEN even more, which is crippling DEN even worse. WN and a now heathier F9 are going to hurt UA more in DEN where yields will be trashed then AA in ORD. SFO is under attack with Virgin America seemingly in it for the long haul, plus Alaska has built SFO into a minor focus city as well. LAX is having a similar issue, and truthfully I could see LAX being shrunk even more if UA wants to compete elsewhere. IAD has plenty of LCC competition too, but UA was never big out there anyways, and all their competition in that hub is with Regional carriers.

The other thing to remember at ORD is UA is pulling mainline from many routes and going express, but a lot of these routes AA either doesn't fly at all, or its all Eagle. The big thing in play here is the RFP that UA has for more regional lift. That may be how UA responds to AA, but right now, if they want to respond at ORD, they are going to have to pull lift from somewhere, and its going to weaken the whole domestic structure even worse than it already is. I am not sure UA is in a position to do that at the moment.


User currently offlineUA_727 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 215 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 hours ago) and read 9968 times:



Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 1):
What do they have the resources to do?
I dont think their fleet situation puts them in a position to mount a formidable response to the addition of 57 flights.

Agreed. Frankly, the only response I see is to go kocking at OO and RP's doors.

Seriously, UA has a remarkable relationship with Express partners and I think ExPlus is UA's only formidable response to this move by AA. Unfortunately, a shrp move like this would not be congruent with UA's current course of cost and capacity discipline, but I can guarantee you that some sort of decision will be made to compete toe to toe at ORD.

-UA-



"AW - I'm on Board..."
User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8902 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 hours ago) and read 9882 times:

Not a whole lot UA can do - domestic capacity has been brutally slashed with the 737s leaving the fleet next month, and they can't exactly get mainline narrowbodies that quickly. Heck, they can't get ExPlus planes that quickly probably.

They could reallocate some planes from SFO/DEN/IAD hubs, but it would be minimal.

Oh, and can we stop with the AA in place of a simple "a"? It's rather annoying, childish and tacky.


User currently offlineJetbluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2982 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 hours ago) and read 9789 times:

What is the situation with capacity at ORD? Does UA have the gate space to add flights - even if it had the planes to do it? What is their utilization like?

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 6):
Oh, and can we stop with the AA in place of a simple "a"? It's rather annoying, childish and tacky.

I AAgree, though I AActuAAlly think it's kind of funny AAt times too  Wink

JetBluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3347 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 hours ago) and read 9648 times:



Quoting Jetbluefan1 (Reply 7):
I AAgree, though I AActuAAlly think it's kind of funny AAt times too

Maybe once or twice, like in "ChicAAgo" or "MiAAmi", but after that, it just makes sentences more difficult to read.


User currently offlineNoMoreRJs From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 471 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 hours ago) and read 9423 times:

AAgreed!  Wink

I will stop using this.

I still think UA will do something to respond. If not added flights, maybe dirt cheap airfares on DFW to ORD, DEN and LAX.


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5951 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 hours ago) and read 8967 times:



Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 1):
I dont think their fleet situation puts them in a position to mount a formidable response to the addition of 57 flights.



Quoting Apodino (Reply 4):
Is United really in a position to respond? Their domestic narrowbody fleet has shrunk, there are no replacements coming any time soon, and ORD is not the only UA hub under attack.

Most of the AA adds are on RJs, if UA adds any flights it would more then likely be with RJs...

Quoting Jetbluefan1 (Reply 7):
What is the situation with capacity at ORD? Does UA have the gate space to add flights - even if it had the planes to do it? What is their utilization like?

UA has available gate space at ORD they are not maxed out in T1...they are basically maxed out in T2 however.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 hours ago) and read 8963 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

To respond, UA will need to do the same and downsize in other places. The question is: Where ?


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8902 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (5 years 5 hours ago) and read 8894 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
To respond, UA will need to do the same and downsize in other places. The question is: Where ?

Will they necessarily though? On all the new routes AA announced today, they're running ExPlus on many of these routes. Heck, a rather large chunk of UA flying out of ORD now is on ExPlus, which is equally competitive (if not moreso, due to E+ and no need to gate check on a E-170 unlike a CRJ-700) than the new AA improved RJs.

Also, I wouldn't be shocked if these planes are going up against some routes where UA offers a better service as of now. For example, I wouldn't be shocked to see AA put some of these new CRJ-700s on ORD-DTW (as mentioned on the other thread) - AA's service will cut down on the discrepancy between them and United and Delta, both of whom run a mix of mainline and RJs (CR7/CR9/E70) all with F.


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4382 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (5 years 5 hours ago) and read 8872 times:

I think some folks here have it bass ackwards -- AA's moves are, at best, a lukewarm response to the Delta merger and CO/UA partnership.

If I was Delta or CO/UA management, I'd have had a hearty laugh at AA's proposed schedule changes, which do little more than admit that the STL hub has been a charade for some time, and demonstrate that AA management is either too incompetent or naive to innovate the carrier into relevance (e.g., by launching USA-Africa services, on which it could clean Delta's clock quite handily with modest effort) beyond its traditional domestic and Latin America strengths for the 21st century. What made today's announcement even more amusing is that US (!) today announced it too is installing flat bed seats, confirming that AA will be offering the worst Business Class product of the USA legacies going forward, a full generation behind competing USA carrier products (and that will hurt AA's bottom line over time).

So the proper UA response is to launch a few fare sales on competing routes and otherwise focus on making the implementation of the partnership with CO a success, since that is the biggest near-term revenue enhancer UA has.

[Edited 2009-09-17 21:09:47]


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineFreequentFlier From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 900 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 hours ago) and read 8831 times:



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 13):
I think some folks here have it bass ackwards -- AA's moves are, at best, a lukewarm response to the Delta merger and CO/UA partnership.

If I was Delta or CO/UA management, I'd have had a hearty laugh at AA's proposed schedule changes, which do little more than admit that the STL hub has been a charade for some time, and demonstrate that AA management is either too incompetent or naive to innovate the carrier into relevance (e.g., by launching USA-Africa services, on which it could clean Delta's clock quite handily with modest effort) beyond its traditional domestic and Latin America strengths for the 21st century. What made today's announcement even more amusing is that US (!) today announced it too is installing flat bed seats, confirming that AA will be offering the worst Business Class product of the USA legacies going forward, a full generation behind competing USA carrier products (and that will hurt AA's bottom line over time).

Completely agree. AA isn't really shaking things up here, they're moving the furniture around. Many of these routes are simply re-instatements of routes that were previously cut in recent years. A lot of AA's success these days is based on its past reputation. It's not really been much of an innovator lately.


User currently offlineMattnrsa From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 393 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 hours ago) and read 8748 times:



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 13):
I think some folks here have it bass ackwards -- AA's moves are, at best, a lukewarm response to the Delta merger and CO/UA partnership.

I also agree. With UA's capacity reductions over the last year, ORD has been the least impacted. UA's advantage over AA in ORD has grown substantially as AA drew down the hub. This move is only a reversal on AA's part of ceding traffic to UA.

The playing field will be returned to the state it was in last year, but UA will still be the dominant carrier in ORD.


User currently onlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5430 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 hours ago) and read 8658 times:



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 14):
A lot of AA's success these days is based on its past reputation. It's not really been much of an innovator lately.

 checkmark  Absolutely right on, 'Flier! (And you said it a lot more "A.net-friendly" than I would have...  Wink )

bb


User currently offlineUA933 From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 220 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8197 times:

How man PAX do UA and AA carry out of ORD every year and with how many anual departures (each)?


united - It's time to fly!
User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3817 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8068 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 10):
Most of the AA adds are on RJs, if UA adds any flights it would more then likely be with RJs...

Even thats hard to do when you're replacing so much domestic mainline with CR7.


User currently offlineJawake From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8020 times:



Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 18):

Even that's hard to do when you're replacing so much domestic mainline with CR7.

Very true, Oct will mark a transition of a number of UA line stations to go express. AA is adding mainline and express service, and I just don't see UA being able to respond to that.

UA just does not have the planes for mainline service, and their express operation are already expanding as UA downsizes.

Seriously, I just don't see any way UA could respond to this AA expansion.

What I find surprising is AA timing on this, Oct/Nov are not big months for airlines, is this really the right time to launch to new routes?


User currently offlineSurfandsnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2865 posts, RR: 30
Reply 20, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7979 times:

AA has suddenly moved into quite a few prime UA markets. There really aren't too many unique AA strongholds that UA can move into as retaliation. They have already tried the likes of BMI, AZO, and TUS without success in recent years. Other cities served only by AA from ORD like PBI, FLL, and SJC have been very recently dropped entirely by UA. Basically, what can UA really do?


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineColts001 From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7572 times:

What is lost in the whole additional new flights from ORD is AA is cutting more than 10 mainline flights (this is including the new 3 mainline routes) and replacing them with RJ's.

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22993 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6799 times:



Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 18):
Even thats hard to do when you're replacing so much domestic mainline with CR7.

If UA went to G7 tomorrow and asked them to add 30 CR7s, that would not be hard for them to do. I don't think the replacement of mainline with 70 seaters necessarily precludes additional growth - if that's what UA wants to do.

Quoting Jawake (Reply 19):
AA is adding mainline and express service, and I just don't see UA being able to respond to that.

In what current UA Express cities is AA adding mainline?

Quoting Surfandsnow (Reply 20):
Other cities served only by AA from ORD like PBI, FLL, and SJC have been very recently dropped entirely by UA. Basically, what can UA really do?

One fact that gets lost in the shuffle a lot, I think, is that there are cities that can really only support one carrier from ORD. SJC and PBI are probably good examples of AA cities like that, and SMF and BOI are probably good examples of similar UA cities. A competitive response in any of those cities is likely to result in nothing more than someone losing money - and in those cities like JAX where AA is adding ORD service solely because they cut STL service, I expect that AA will not do well. They just need the connectivity.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1462 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6719 times:



Quoting UA_727 (Reply 2):
And while this announcement has me a little concerned, given that it basically goes right for the kill against UA,

Like an army, AA is also building up its reserves (with the latest $3B infusion) to wistand (and outlast) UA during a long winters trench battle.


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5951 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (4 years 12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6516 times:



Quoting Mercure1 (Reply 23):
Quoting UA_727 (Reply 2):
And while this announcement has me a little concerned, given that it basically goes right for the kill against UA,

Like an army, AA is also building up its reserves (with the latest $3B infusion) to wistand (and outlast) UA during a long winters trench battle.

They are actually going to net around 1.3 billion not 3 with this transaction. Remember UA is also not sitting still when it comes to adding liquidity.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 22):
Quoting Jawake (Reply 19):
AA is adding mainline and express service, and I just don't see UA being able to respond to that.

In what current UA Express cities is AA adding mainline?

Thats a good question as the way I am reading this press release and the details that have been posted on the other thread the vast majority of this expansion is Eagle not AA mainline. Also as someone else mentioned above AA is actually cutting mainline service and adding Eagle, when all is said and done AA mainline will be smaller at ORD then it was prior to this expansion.

]



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
25 Ckfred : I'll give you an example. My wife flies ORD-PIT a lot, once or twice a month. She used to fly Eagle all the time, but now she flies UA about half the
26 KGAIflyer : I was thinking the same thing. For instance, UA already serves three cities from YYC (Calgarites getting off jets from San Francisco and Denver with
27 Ckfred : I'm not sure that's accurate. The press release says that AA/AE are adding 57 departures. HNL/ANC/YVR are new routes for mainline, with the other new
28 United1 : Well here at least is what was posted on the other thread... Some emerging details about the frequencies of new routes are -: MIA-BHM – 2x daily OR
29 DC8FanJet : AA isn't adding 57 flight. The majority of the increased flying is AAEagle, and many of the routes are simply putting back what had been cut. What ha
30 DFWEagle : Did you include MIA-BHM in your tally? I count only 27 above for Chicago. Anyway, to complete the list of new ORD markets -: ORD-DAY – 3x daily ORD
31 Mattnrsa : This thread is about UA's response to AA, but most are forgetting this is actually AA's response to UA's increasing market share at ORD over the last
32 United1 : I did oops....OK time for Starbucks...thanks. So there are 32 of the 57 flights... I guess I'm curious if the case is that is the case why hasn't Eag
33 Commavia : According to who - besides A.net - was this a response to DL+NW and/or UA+CO? Is it conceivable that AA just recognized opportunities for growth, and
34 United1 : Last time I checked this site is about exchanging ideas and information. Speculation and assumption is part of that.... Its possible...and just as li
35 Commavia : I would agree that doing nothing is not the answer, but I would think you would agree that doing nothing has not been AA's response. In the past eigh
36 LACA773 : Surfandsnow, please check your facts. UA has not dropped SJC entirely. They still serve DEN with mainline. UAEx serves LAX. It would be nice if they
37 United1 : I'll give them huge props for keeping their pensions thus far and for paying down debt up until recently. As for the rest of the items you listed eve
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