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Lufthansa To Accelerate Removal Of 45 50/70seaters  
User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3958 posts, RR: 5
Posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13742 times:

According to media reports quoting an internal LH newsletter, Lufthansa will accelerate the removal of 45 of its 50 to 70 seat regional aircraft currently operated by subsidiaries Cityline and Eurowings.

The two currently have a combined fleet of 36 CanRJ200s and 22 CanRJ700, so at least some of the fairly new CanRJ700s will face the axe in addition to the CRJ200s that have been slated for removal from the fleet for some time now.

If I have my data correct, it means that only a very small fleet of aircraft with less than 90 seats will remain with the German operation of Lufthansa group: (probably) 15 CRJ700 at Cityline, 10 Q400 at Augsburg Airways and a handful of ATRs with Contactair. Not sure what this will mean for some of Lufthansa's thinner routes from airports such as DUS, HAM and TXL from where the CRJ200s are mainly operated on international routes by-passing the hubs at FRA and MUC. Probably not all will be able to sustain 90seaters. e.g. those from DUS to Eastern European destinations.

No timeline for the removal has been given by Lufthansa other than it will be accelerated and that it is part of the current cost-cutting programme that will be fully implemented in 2009/2010.

Link to FTD Germany:

http://www.ftd.de/unternehmen/handel...t-kleine-flieger-aus/50011739.html

60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRobffm2 From Germany, joined Dec 2006, 1114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13667 times:



Quoting Vfw614 (Thread starter):
Probably not all will be able to sustain 90seaters. e.g. those from DUS to Eastern European destinations.

In an article on aero.de http://www.aero.de/news.php?varnewsid=9163 it says that they hope to achieve lower costs per passenger by using bigger planes.

I understand this as a plan to try to increase the number of passengers.


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3161 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13656 times:

Interesting, but not really surprising. Having been at DUS a couple of time recently, I was surprised by the large number of small jets operated by LH, compared to (for example) AB using the same airport.

I think in many cases, CR2 and CR7 flights can be replaced by larger aircraft operating lower frequencies. To several routes, from DUS, LH operated high frequencies, which are probably not absolutely necessary for O&D traffic. Some examples:

DUS-BHX: 4x daily (3x CR2, 1x CR9)
DUS-MAN: 4x daily (2x CR2, 1x CR7, 1x CR9)
DUS-LYS: 4x daily CR2
DUS-WAW: 5x daily (1x CR2, 2x CR7, 1x LO E70, 1x LO ER4)

I could easily imagine that 3x daily flights using bigger airframes (CR9, E90) are absolutely sufficient for both transfer and O&D pax.

From DUS, low-frequency with CR2 or CR7 flights are:
2x daily:
BSL, but will become 2x CR9 this winter
WRO
OTP
GOT

1x daily:
LED, will become 4x weekly 735 this winter
BIO
KTW

1x weekly
SOB, BIA, INV, etc; oddball weekly summer-only flights.

Maybe I missed some, but overall I guess that LH will increase aircraft size and reduce frequency, and that not many routes will be scrapped.

[Edited 2009-09-18 02:13:06]

User currently offlineRabenschlag From Germany, joined Oct 2000, 1007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 13649 times:

Ist this the long awaited end of hub and spoke?  Smile

User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24906 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 13475 times:

What will happen with the twice daily DUS-NCL CRJ service? It's been operated with a mix of CR2s and CR7s recently with a couple of CR9s popping up as well?


When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3958 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 13443 times:

Will be interesting to see whether Contactair will keep its five ATR42s as these are sort of a "niche application".

Quoting Joost (Reply 2):
From DUS, low-frequency with CR2 or CR7 flights are:
2x daily:
BSL, but will become 2x CR9 this winter
WRO
OTP
GOT

1x daily:
LED, will become 4x weekly 735 this winter
BIO
KTW

There are quite a few other CRJ routes from DUS that come to my mind:

KBP 1x daily CR2
SOF 1x daily CR2
NCL 1x daily CR2
OSL 1x daily CR2 (+ SK)
TRN 2x daily CR2
ARN 3x daily CR2 (+SK)
MAD 2x daily CR7
BUD 3x daily CR7
GVA 3x daily CR2/CR7 (2/1)
LEJ 4x daily CR2/CR7/CR9 (1/2/1)

(in addition to that CR2 also operate some of the daily rotations to LEJ, MXP, PRG etc.)

I am not sure if most of those routes will be able to sustain a CR9 with the same frequency or survive a less than daily / non day-return option-style operation - particularly with airberlin /easyJet increasing pressure by adding BIO, KRK, BSL as destinations soon.


User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24906 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 13436 times:



Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 5):
NCL 1x daily CR2

2 x Daily  Wink



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3958 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 13403 times:



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 6):
2 x Daily

I checked October 09 departures, and Amadeus showed only a daily flight X6 for various dates (LH4950 DUS STD 1100).


User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24906 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 13317 times:



Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 7):
I checked October 09 departures, and Amadeus showed only a daily flight X6 for various dates (LH4950 DUS STD 1100).

www.lufthansa.co.uk is showing 2 daily (weekday) flights with 1 sunday flight during November.

Flight Number: LH4951
Departs: 09:55, Monday, November 9, 2009 Newcastle - Newcastle, United Kingdom
Arrives: 12:20, Monday, November 9, 2009 Duesseldorf - International Airport, Germany
Airline: EUROWINGS
Aircraft: Canadair Regional Jet 200

Flight Number: LH4953
Departs: 17:50, Monday, November 9, 2009 Newcastle - Newcastle, United Kingdom
Arrives: 20:15, Monday, November 9, 2009 Duesseldorf - International Airport, Germany
Airline: EUROWINGS
Aircraft: Canadair Regional Jet 200



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4384 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 13304 times:

Quoting Rabenschlag (Reply 3):
Ist this the long awaited end of hub and spoke?

Just the opposite - direct routes will suffer most, and more traffic will be rouuted through the Hubs in FRA, MUC, ZRH, BRU.

[Edited 2009-09-18 03:35:03]

[Edited 2009-09-18 03:35:39]

I can't get used to the outdated IATA naming scheme still popular on a.net, which the rest of the world has replaced by ICAOs decades ago, sorry.

[Edited 2009-09-18 03:37:53]

User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8541 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 13284 times:
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Quoting Burkhard (Reply 9):
Hubs in FRA, MUC, TRH, BRS.

TRH = Trona , California , USA ? BRS = Bristol ? since when did they become LH group hubs ?



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineSketty222 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1776 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 13283 times:

Personally, I hope we see the NCL-DUS route upgraded to a 737 or an airbus variation


There's flying and then there's flying
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8541 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 13160 times:
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Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 11):
Personally, I hope we see the NCL-DUS route upgraded to a 737 or an airbus variation

at the risk of going OT , I always thought that this was a bit of an oddball route .

I assume that there must be a reason for it operating from DUS rather than FRA or MUC. Is there a large DUS based corporate client that has major business interests in NCL ?



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineSketty222 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1776 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 13051 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 13):
I assume that there must be a reason for it operating from DUS rather than FRA or MUC. Is there a large DUS based corporate client that has major business interests in NCL ?

I know Newcastle School of Business works closely with some businesses in DUS but I dont think LH would base their business on this.
Proctor and Gamble have a large workforce in Newcastle so i dont know if they also have factories/offices in or around DUS



There's flying and then there's flying
User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3958 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 13027 times:

It was inherited by Lufthansa from NCL-based Gill Airways and Eurowings. Gill built up the route slowly in the 1990s. At one point Gill co-operated with Eurowings (they also did NCL-HAM for a short time), so it came under the Lufthansa umbrella after Gill went bancrupt and Eurowings aligned itself with Lufthansa and left the KLM/AF group (that had a franchise agreement with Gill).

User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8541 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12990 times:
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Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 15):
It was inherited by Lufthansa from NCL-based Gill Airways and Eurowings

Thanks for that ,    I have wondered about this route for years , but I have always been too lazy to start a thread on it . Please accept my apologies for having slightly hijacked your thread .

[Edited 2009-09-18 04:39:13]


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2171 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 12859 times:
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Are the CRJ700s leased, so that LH can simply return them when the lease period is over?

Otherwise it may be difficult to sell them... QX are struggling to sell theirs.



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12333 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 12683 times:



Quoting Vfw614 (Thread starter):
The two currently have a combined fleet of 36 CanRJ200s and 22 CanRJ700, so at least some of the fairly new CanRJ700s will face the axe in addition to the CRJ200s that have been slated for removal from the fleet for some time now.

Interesting, because in ...

AMR: Major Fleet/Route Announcement (by Commavia Sep 17 2009 in Civil Aviation)

we read that AMR is adding 22 CR7s....



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDairy From Germany, joined Nov 2003, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10950 times:



Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 14):
so i dont know if they also have factories/offices in or around DUS

No, they are based quite close to Frankfurt airport, based in Schwalbach/Ts.



A318/A319/A320/A321 AB3/A306/A310/A333/A343/A346 732/733/735/736/744/752/763/764/772/773 DH3 F70 F100 CR2 CR1 CR7 ATR42
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24906 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10870 times:

Sorry for straying off topic here, but the NCL-DUS route was originally for the UK armed forces I believe. IIRC, there's a few bases around DUS?

I think LH could make a NCL-FRA route successful though



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6116 posts, RR: 34
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10486 times:



Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 16):
Are the CRJ700s leased, so that LH can simply return them when the lease period is over?

LH bought them... and for a very good price!



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineSflaflight From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1183 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9269 times:



Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):

we read that AMR is adding 22 CR7s....

Contractual obligations for AA to do this. AA has no choice. It's the unions that had a say in that. Unless you're hinting that we know where some of those birds might be comming from!  Smile


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24803 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9197 times:



Quoting Burkhard (Reply 9):
I can't get used to the outdated IATA naming scheme still popular on a.net, which the rest of the world has replaced by ICAOs decades ago, sorry.

Unless you're involved in airliine flight operations or ATC, far more people are familiar with 3-letter IATA codes than 4-letter ICAO codes since IATA codes are used for reservations/ticketing and on baggage tags. Most people never see the ICAO codes.

AMS/NRT/DEL are much easier for most people to identify as being Amsterdam, Tokyo Narita, and Delhi, than if they were to see EHAM/RJAA/VIDP where I would guess at least 95% of A.net users would have to look them up. Three letters is also more concise and easier to remember than four. Far more IATA codes can also be guessed due to their similarity to the city or airport name than the cryptic ICAO codes.


User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2171 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8050 times:
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Quoting Planemaker (Reply 20):
Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 16):
Are the CRJ700s leased, so that LH can simply return them when the lease period is over?

LH bought them... and for a very good price!

Ah, then they might be stuck with them for a while. Well, they can remove a galley and the front lav and add 4 more seats, to make them more economical. 22 aircraft x 4 seats = 88 more revenue seats x all current flights = nice bit of extra revenue  Smile



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12333 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7872 times:



Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 21):
Unless you're hinting that we know where some of those birds might be comming from!

I guess it will just be an interesting coincidence.

The other thread is saying that AMR prefers to buy new.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
25 Stylo777 : isn't it smarter to first remove all Avro's before the CR7s?
26 Flyglobal : Spot on! Yes I agree, most passengers are used to the IATA codes. No reason to use ICAO here. ICAO is more for dedicated insiders, while IATA is for
27 Flyglobal : I am sure, many of the small direct routes are routes for business people connecting certan business and expart centers and those routs are usually so
28 Post contains images SandroZRH : Our planning dep. works with IATA codes. IATA codes are also used on our rosters, route designators, flight plans, everywhere really. The only place
29 WROORD : I flew DUS-WRO this summer and the flight was full, not sure why they did not update with the larger aircraft some time ago. Obviously winter is slowe
30 NA : All ATRs will leave soon.
31 Vfw614 : That's interesting - how will routes like FRA-HOQ or DUS-LCY be served then? (these are the routes I have in the back of my mind currently served by t
32 Kappel : Besides, a.net only identifies the IATA codes, not the ICAO codes (with the question mark). That really helps me and I'm sure plenty of others as wel
33 PanHAM : That would not go along with the product definition. LH sells C class tickets on all these flights . C passengers get both seats , so on a 4 abreast
34 Joost : The economic crisis is used often enough as a justification to change the product definition. When they'd change "Meal" into "Snack", some frequent t
35 Vfw614 : Not sure. FRA-HOQ used to be a Dornier 228 route - it is not exactly a route that warrants a 93seater and I am not sure if LH could win the contract
36 Airnerd : How about the aircraft on FRA-FDH. That's the light LH route I've flown most often. I've had ATRs, CRJs and Avros on that route over the years. What's
37 PurpleBox : What will happen at places like NUE where mainline does not really exist and the majority of flights are CR2, CR7 and ATR with a few AVRO's.
38 PanHAM : they will get the same service with larger regional jets. LH will not give up markets they just will replace small regionals with larger regionals to
39 Post contains links Joost : Ah, I found the answer myself. FRA-HOQ is a PSO flight and the current contract will expire on March 30, 2010. A full overview of PSO routes in Europ
40 PanHAM : and if LH does not have the right equipment anymore to operate such PSO flights, OLT or Cirrus or others will have and they can offer that for lower
41 Joost : Yes indeed. I fully expect that in case the gov't will issue a new tender for FRA-HOQ, carriers like OLT and Cirrus will bid here. Cirrus still has a
42 Vfw614 : The Avros are 93seaters. We are talking about 50/70 seaters. With the current sardine can layout, the Avros should be OK for Lufthansa- This route is
43 Joost : The PSO is of the "restricted" type, meaning that no other carrier can step in to operate the route as long as OLT is flying it. It's normal to see p
44 Vfw614 : They plan to step in on a non-subsidized basis if the plug is pulled and Germanwings (that already operates from STR and CGN to RLG) is unable to off
45 Enginebird : And rightly so. There shouldn't be any PSO flights at all. If there is not enough demand for a certain route it should not be flown, simple as that.
46 PanHAM : Passau does not have an airport and Linz is no too far. If the municipality and the regional counties near Flensburg want a route to MUC or FRA to at
47 Vfw614 : AFAIK, the money for those routes comes from local, regional or state funds, but not from federal funds. So it is all up to local decision-making. Fo
48 Robffm2 : That is not really local.
49 Vfw614 : The decision-making to establish a PSO route usually is. Policy-makers are then lobbied on state level (not federal level) to provide (additional) fu
50 MUCFLYER : the first E-195 D-AEBA for Cityline will be ferried as LH8986 on Saturday the 25th via Recife and Las Palmas to Munich...
51 Joost : It often serves a social-economic purpose. Subsidized infrastructure (be it air, rail or bus service) can help smaller municipalities to remain attra
52 Vfw614 : The three German PSO routes are, imho, not needed. I know quite a few people who have business to do around RLG or ERF and they cannot be bothered to
53 CRJ900 : Then how about transferring the CRJ700s to Eurowing/Germanwings and use them on one-class flights with 72 seats, they can open new LCC routes with th
54 Vfw614 : Rumour on a German forum says that Contact Air will dispose of all ATRs in spring (5 ATR42s and 5 ATR72s), with some of them joining Air Dolomiti (cur
55 PanHAM : well, LH 's decision will be based on the bottom line. They rather give up a route than burning cash on that route. Such a decision will likely be in
56 Kappel : I just noticed a change at MUC. I'm flying AMS-MUC-SIN-MUC-AMS next month. The MUC-AMS leg (november 6) was originally planned to be flown with a CRJ9
57 Airbuseric : Hi, I noticed this too actually. The CRJ700/900 is much more comfortable then those old RJ-85's. Especially the 3-3 seating is horror. (So, try to ge
58 Kappel : Thanks for the tip! I'll be flying the E195 on the AMS-MUC leg, my first Embraer flight
59 MUCFLYER : second attempt... After having engine troubles last week, the first E-195 D-AEBA for LH Cityline will be ferried today via Recife and Las Palmas to M
60 Vfw614 : Sign of the things to come: BRU-TXL/HAM will be axed / handed over to SN. Two routes previously served by CanRJ200. Part of the puzzle maybe is that L
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