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DL Mainline Going To Key West  
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 8
Posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 11355 times:

Effective December 17th Delta will add mainline service to Key West

Flight schedule looks like this:

Atlanta-Key West
DL 1651 9:55a-12:00p 737-700 Daily
DL 5795 12:05p-2:00p CRJ-700 X67
DL 5330 2:55-4:44p CRJ-700 Daily
DL 5134 6:55p-8:44p CRJ-700 Daily

Key West-Atlanta
DL 5735 7:45a-9:50a CRJ-700 Daily
DL 1402 12:45p-2:50p 737-700 Daily
DL 5195 2:30p-4:35p X67
DL 5594 5:15p-7:15p CRJ-700

Source: Delta Air Lines


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
98 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2897 posts, RR: 31
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 11306 times:

Well well well. Delta sure doesn't seem ready to hand the EYW market over to AirTran! Now let's see if AirTran decides to fly to ATL nonstop the other 3 days per week  stirthepot 


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3845 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 11097 times:

hahaha! I love it! Why doesn't DL just cut down on their planning department and pay FL a nominal fee to do their planning for them?

User currently offlineJBAirwaysFan From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1034 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 11076 times:

And on the EXACT same a/c too! Will there be more of a payload restriction on this flight than the FL EYW-MCO-ATL flight since it is a longer flight n/s to ATL?

Just one issue, it's not in the DL reservaitons system yet!

[Edited 2009-09-18 17:34:06]


In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9672 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 11064 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
DL 5195 2:30p-4:35p X67

Also on a CR7



yep.
User currently offlineIloveboeing From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 798 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10888 times:

Typical action by DL. They are determined to hold monopoly power on many of their markets and drive out competition.

Mark my words: if FL leaves the market, DL will raise fares sky-high and reduce capacity to all-regional jets again.

I hope that the market supports FL and doesn't fall for DL's deception. DL, like many carriers, seem to want to have monopoly power and charge the highest fares they possibly can. Monopolies are NOT good for the consumer and I don't understand why people on a.net advocate high fares, especially when they aren't willing to pay them themselves. Besides, who in their right mind would want to pay $500 to spend a couple of hours on a tiny regional jet? It's just not worth it.

I've been to Key West; it is a beautiful place and people should be able to get there at affordable prices. YES, it is possible for airlines to charge affordable fares and make a profit. That is a FACT. High fares are NOT and never have been the sole road to profitability.

I'm rooting for FL on this one.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9672 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10833 times:



Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 2):
hahaha! I love it! Why doesn't DL just cut down on their planning department and pay FL a nominal fee to do their planning for them?

They do this now.....they just dont pay FL LOL



yep.
User currently offlineZrs70 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 3206 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10833 times:

I remember back in the 80's when Piedmont started F-28 jets to Key West. I think Eastern was flying jets there as well, but I'm not sure.


14 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2013
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16892 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10775 times:



Quoting Zrs70 (Reply 7):
I remember back in the 80's when Piedmont started F-28 jets to Key West. I think Eastern was flying jets there as well, but I'm not sure.

Eastern flew 727-100s into Key West from Miami.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23226 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10774 times:



Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 5):
Typical action by DL. They are determined to hold monopoly power on many of their markets and drive out competition.

It appears that they had planned (prior to the FL annoucement) to run something like 25 CR7s a week on the route (3-4 daily, depending on day). Adding an average of less than 100 seats a day to the route is hardly trying to "drive out competition;" they may simply be trying to compete with FL's superior product versus their (all-Y) CR7s.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSkyguyB727 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10707 times:



Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 5):
DL, like many carriers, seem to want to have monopoly power and charge the highest fares they possibly can.

You can't really say DL has, or even wants a monopoly at EYW. EYW is also served by AA Eagle with a bunch of ATRs to/from MIA (with conx to ATL) and US Airways Express.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10676 times:

Not the surprise of the century.

I'd still personally rather fly into EYW on an Eagle AT7...I flew in there once on a Comair EMB-120 and even in that plane let's just say there wasn't a lot of room to play with on landing/takeoff.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33195 posts, RR: 71
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10660 times:



Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 5):
Typical action by DL. They are determined to hold monopoly power

What monopoly? DL isn't even the largest airline at EYW, AA is.



a.
User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5260 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10615 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
they may simply be trying to compete with FL's superior product versus their (all-Y) CR7s

And why is Y domestic not ok? Longhaul I can understand paying more, although I'm happy with my book in Y and my own drinks and food for flights under 6 hours... I'm 6,3 and 100 kg, so their you go.. ( And Ryanair under 3 hours is fine as well..)

My feeling is that there are a few frequent posters here that try to complain at everything they see and are actually unhappy to fly!. In that case, find another job, or go on a 1 year sabbatical.

I just have to say it now as well, the complaining of the 77W 3-4-3 seating is so stupid. Clearly those persons are spoiled, or stupid bored. Or fat for that matter.... which is their own fastfood fault anyway. I've never had a client that cared about witdh, but all care about pitch, not even recline..


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23226 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 10559 times:



Quoting KL911 (Reply 13):
And why is Y domestic not ok?

I wasn't really making a normative judgment. I was just pointing out that FL has a better hard product than the CR7s (both in Y and in J), and by changing to a 73G, they are moving to a hard product that is equivalent or maybe a bit superior (better IFE and an inch more legroom in front; same legroom in back).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offline71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3088 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 10548 times:



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 11):
...I flew in there once on a Comair EMB-120 and even in that plane let's just say there wasn't a lot of room to play with on landing/takeoff.

I'd like to fly down there on the 737 just to experience the landing and take-off. I wonder if there will be any simulator checkouts for the pilots on this? Captain only landing? Is the landing done with manual or auto braking? I'll bet it's a blast either way!



The good old days: Delta L-1011s at MSY
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 10539 times:



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 11):
I'd still personally rather fly into EYW on an Eagle AT7

When my family lived there, the last thing I wanted to do was connect with AA at MIA and get on the AT7 into EYW. Always delayed or missed connections.

The US service was much better. And sometimes it just made more sense to rent a car in MIA and drive.

Later on, DL added service from MCO, which was much better for connecting.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 10410 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 16):
Later on, DL added service from MCO, which was much better for connecting.

That's what I did...DL via MCO...nice and easy. Sad that those days are gone.

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 15):

I'd like to fly down there on the 737 just to experience the landing and take-off

I'd try it I guess...and just hope for rain-free evening.  Smile


User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3147 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 10313 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
Effective December 17th Delta will add mainline service to Key West

Flight schedule looks like this:

Atlanta-Key West
DL 1651 9:55a-12:00p 737-700 Daily
DL 5795 12:05p-2:00p CRJ-700 X67
DL 5330 2:55-4:44p CRJ-700 Daily
DL 5134 6:55p-8:44p CRJ-700 Daily

Key West-Atlanta
DL 5735 7:45a-9:50a CRJ-700 Daily
DL 1402 12:45p-2:50p 737-700 Daily
DL 5195 2:30p-4:35p X67
DL 5594 5:15p-7:15p CRJ-700

Source: Delta Air Lines

I love it..now EYW will have its only flights with IFE/PTVs!



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineFlaps From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1294 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 10298 times:

It's not THAT big of deal flying a 737 into EYW. Its not like trying to get a max gross 747 in or out of DCA. There will be payload restrictions to be sure but nothing extra dramatic about the takeoffs or landings. The payload restrictions will keep these operations at a "normal" pax experience.

User currently offlineN757st From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 10187 times:



Quoting Flaps (Reply 19):
It's not THAT big of deal flying a 737 into EYW. Its not like trying to get a max gross 747 in or out of DCA. There will be payload restrictions to be sure but nothing extra dramatic about the takeoffs or landings. The payload restrictions will keep these operations at a "normal" pax experience.

I don't know about that. I have flown passengers in and out of EYW. We were required to breif the folks that we would be doing a static full power takeoff and that the takeoff/landing would be more abrupt then normal. You do not often see/feel static full power takeoffs on the line anymore. Any way you slice it, its still a 4800 foot field and ergo not a normal operation.


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15812 posts, RR: 27
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 10091 times:



Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 5):
Mark my words: if FL leaves the market, DL will raise fares sky-high and reduce capacity to all-regional jets again.

And FL would do the same if DL left, except the RJ part since they don't have any. This is what the airline business is, and any free market business in general. Let's look at who's really going to win here: the passengers. Check out the fares to the upper midwest destinations served mostly by NW/DL. They are sky high usually. Just the way business works, nothing inherently evil about it.

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 15):
I'd like to fly down there on the 737 just to experience the landing and take-off.

They ought to fly a 757 down there. Then it's a real party.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineSilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2154 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 10018 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
DL 5795 12:05p-2:00p CRJ-700 X67

At first glance I thought that said 767 instead of X67. Time to go to bed, I guess.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21803 posts, RR: 55
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9857 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
I was just pointing out that FL has a better hard product than the CR7s (both in Y and in J), and by changing to a 73G, they are moving to a hard product that is equivalent or maybe a bit superior (better IFE and an inch more legroom in front; same legroom in back).

I haven't flown on one of FL's 73Gs, but if it's anything like their 717s, they really do put the "hard" in "hard product".

Yeah, I know they've got better IFE and some more legroom, but I'd take a DL CR7 over a FL 717 just on terms of seat comfort alone.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineOsubuckeyes From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 805 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9806 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
I was just pointing out that FL has a better hard product than the CR7s (both in Y and in J), and by changing to a 73G, they are moving to a hard product that is equivalent or maybe a bit superior (better IFE and an inch more legroom in front; same legroom in back).

I find it a little bit hard to believe that many people will take into consideration on about an hour flight whether they are on a 73G vs CR7 on a fairily short flight from MCO and ATL. Since EYW is a leisure market i would suspect it might be like most others where the lowest price wins regardless of IFE or legroom. Most people can deal with 1" less legroom on an hour flight.

I find it interesting that DL is throwing a 737-700 on ATL-EYW what would be the difference in capacity by using a restricted 73G vs. a CR7.


25 727forever : I think it will also be interesting to see how much if any restriction there will be on the DL 73G making the flight. On a short flight, under 2 hour
26 Qantas777 : Now the market is ruined in terms of profit. Since FL is in, yields are down, since DL added capacity, yields will go down and the market will suck no
27 Mercure1 : True, I believe the 737-700W for AirTran has the CFM56-7B22, whilst DL has the -7B24 (which implies around 24k of thrust). I'm not sure if AirTran ca
28 OzarkD9S : I wonder what FL's response will be? 4 days a week is hardly competitive to 4 daily. Maybe they'll go to 3 daily: ATL-MCO-EYW x2 and ATL-TPA-EYW x1 or
29 Jeffrey1970 : You could probably say the same thing about any business that has a strong hold over a market. Air Tran will just have to earn there way into the Key
30 Mayor : The competition, on the other hand, expects to have market share handed to them.
31 LipeGIG : One question after looking to this schedule. What are the hours of operation at Key West ? It's not possible to run a flight out of the island using
32 RampGuy : Can someone please answer this question: The onlly reason DL is upgrade 1 flight to mainline is strictly in retaliation to AirTran's plans to start se
33 Vivavegas : Earliest morning departures are at 0600, those flights are nearly empty (nature of the market). I have arrived on a ATR as late as 0030 local. So to
34 Stlgph : $700 nonstop from Orlando. now that's the spirit!!
35 LipeGIG : I'm just thinking why not run for example a flight to LGA or JFK with this plane while another one run LGA/JFK-EYW I believe there's a good market be
36 AvConsultant : You obviously have not flown on a CR7 as much as a 717 in sheer numbers. The 717 is by far superior to the CR7 on pax comfort. As for carry on's, the
37 JoseKMLB : Them reversers will get them grave yard people out of bed when it lands.
38 Flighty : Why would your bags not arrive on a CR7? It has performance to spare. The CR7 is definitely not mainline, you are right. But a CR7 is better than an
39 Mir : I have nothing against the 717, only FL's seats on the 717. They're the only reason I'd rather take a CRJ. -Mir
40 Jbmitt : Due to the short runway and weight restrictions, MCO and ATL are enough of a challenge, I don't think a non-stop to NYC is possible.
41 BMI727 : Probably not. It would have to be a triangle like UA's ORD-OGG-KOA-ORD flight. A routing could be something like JFK-EYW-ATL-JFK.
42 AvConsultant : I know, that's what I thought. From the east to DEN and DFW were challenged.
43 Transpac787 : The DL 737-700's have the CFM56-7B26, the same engine as their 738 fleet. They cannot. All FL 73G engines are leased. In the agreement with the lesso
44 BMI727 : Which makes sense considering that DL acquired the 73Gs mostly for flying into hot and high airports in South and Central America. I think he's refer
45 Mir : The problem with LCY is not the field length but the approach angle, which is close to twice as steep as a normal approach. I don't see the 73G ever
46 BMI727 : I forgot about that, but what do the A318s and E-jets have that the 737s do not? AS has operated them to demanding airports for some time now, plus G
47 Mir : Demanding in terms of navigation accuracy, yes, but not in terms of approach angle. Which is certainly short, but again does not require a particular
48 BMI727 : That could be it, considering that the Airbus is more software reliant than the 737. The SFP includes software mods, but it doesn't specify what exac
49 Mir : I doubt that would be any improvement, actually. -Mir
50 Enilria : Let's not forget it starts the day after AirTran starts. I question whether they even had the time to let ops evaluate this flight with a 737. This m
51 Yellowtail : I am no D fanboy ....but Isn't that the goal of any business..beat the competition and charge as much as the market will bear for your product
52 Enilria : Absolutely, but there is nothing wrong with calling them out for doing it. I also believe that when a carrier targets a certain carrier for retaliati
53 Cubsrule : I think it's harder than that. As far as I can tell, Delta is not taking the 73G off of a route where it is needed (like SNA or TGU or SXM) in order
54 ZuluTime : The issue with 737 operations into EYW isn't so much runway length - 4,600ft is adequate for a 737-700 operation on a short sector. The problem is the
55 Mayor : Wouldn't this also apply to FL? It's not like DL has started service to EYW, just to compete with FL.........they've been there quite awhile, IIRC. B
56 Acey559 : TravelNet shows Cap at 12F and 112Y. So for right now anyway they're not showing any capacity restrictions, although I'll keep an eye on it and see i
57 DLflynhayn : LCC can't win all the time! Im with DL on this one since they sign my pay check, and yes were not the only ones that do this.
58 JBAirwaysFan : CR7 or 73G, i'm on DL's side. This is probably the one market where I can accept the absence of mainline. IIRC, DL is the only carrier at EYW that ope
59 Post contains images Atlturbine : As of right now Delta TravelNet is showing the aircraft operating at full seating capacity, 12 up front & 112 in the back. FYI EYW recently opened a n
60 FLYjoe : Absolutely not. It's not like FL has just decided to start service to EYW just to boot DL. For whatever reasons, FL thinks there's money to be made i
61 PA110 : Wow, that brings back memories! What a take-off that was. They would start their power-up from the hold-short position, and do a full power turn onto
62 Cubsrule : Again, though, that's not really a fair assertion; the fare environment at EYW would also be much higher. It may be that the CR7 is the right aircraf
63 LipeGIG : Thanks for you and Jbmitt. I was not aware about such restriction because of the runway.
64 Mpdpilot : Just a couple things I noticed and thought I would comment on. First I understand the frustration with the high fares, having grown up in the upper m
65 Post contains links Enilria : That's the issue isn't it. Keep in mind FL isn't even flying EYW-ATL non-stop and yet they feel the desperate need to protect the market. It's that c
66 Cubsrule : I'm not aware of any case in which the government has based its case solely on abuse of monopoly power on route AAA-BBB where the competitor flies DD
67 JBAirwaysFan : Already has. I believe I searched LGA-EYW (which by the way, FL only has available flights from EYW-LGA with stops, no LGA-EYW with stops) for two da
68 Enilria : Sure, it's just over the top to retaliate on the through routing. Seems applicable to me... # The additional revenues American obtained as a result o
69 Cubsrule : Did the government actually prove pricing below variable cost? It's pretty hard to do, and it rarely happens (in the airline industry or otherwise).
70 Atlturbine : I find it difficult to believe that Delta has simply “thrown this together with little thought”. I would wager that the AirTran entry into the Ke
71 Acey559 : If it's on DeltaNet I can get access to it. What do you need?
72 Gigneil : They're not deceiving anyone. This is the way a free market works. NS
73 Atlturbine : Thank you Acey, just curious what the takeoff charts say regarding a 4800 ft runway? Mitch
74 DeltaL1011man : How so? DL doesn't have the slots to add flights to JFK.......where did you see that PR that said they are moving flights to LGA from JFK? right afte
75 Acey559 : I'm not able to get into the Performance section because I'm on my laptop at school, but if I can log into a Delta computer at work the next time I'm
76 Atlturbine : You are a gentleman and a scholar sir...many thanks
77 Enilria : I believe what happened is that the govt was looking like they were going to lose, so they settled with AA and tightened the language about what cons
78 Acey559 : Absolutely, anything I can do to help. Especially for a DL fan.
79 Mayor : Well, I don't know if these seats are blocked or ones sold, already, but for the first few days, there are up to 30 seats each day that are not avail
80 Cubsrule : If Delta can establish that the 73G will lose less money (or make more) than the CR7, there's no antitrust problem. It's a sensible - and legal - rea
81 Mir : It's pretty easy to avoid said balloon - shouldn't be any cause for weight restrictions. -Mir
82 Enilria : That may be the seat block. Usually the system will have ACT and AUH or AUTH. The latter is the number allowed to sell. I don't know the entries in t
83 Mir : It's only 3.5nm wide, so not exactly huge. There's no particularly special procedure published for departures from EYW, just a range of headings to f
84 Cubsrule : A consent decree between AA and DoJ has no effect on DL. A 73G restricted to 70 passengers will lose more money than a CR7, both total and per passen
85 Skyhawk : Most of the flights listed as going to and leaving Key West are in actuality Atlantic Southeast flights. Mainline has only one coming and going.
86 B737100 : Would this route be better served using aircraft from NW ie the DC9-30 or A320? RW, Hughes Airwest had a lot of svc from SNA with the short runway but
87 Mayor : The website for the Port of New York & New Jersey also mentions the runway construction, so I doubt if it's a smokescreen.
88 Enilria : I don't fully understand the reasons why, but it applies to airlines that weren't parties to the case. More than just AA have signed it. Perhaps they
89 DeltaL1011man : take a trip over to CVG. You will see where Delta will get the airplanes from. I would be shocked if Delta gave up slots. I will bet that A) NYC has
90 Cubsrule : Have they ever taken action against Delta? But there's nothing in the FARs that demands more reserve fuel for congested airports. It's just that carr
91 Mayor : Well, they would have to have enough to get to a alternate airport, if necessary, but most of those are pretty close, time wise......i.e. BHM, MCN, e
92 Cubsrule : But I have to carry alternate fuel to ATL in the same situations in which I'd have to carry alternate fuel to ALO.
93 Enilria : They have on several things. All the majors were hit for price fixing through fare basis code signaling after that. I think there were fines as well
94 Cubsrule : Perhaps, perhaps not. There are CO 752 TATL flights that divert quite a bit in the winter, and they seem to do all right nevertheless. It's an issue
95 Mayor : Nope, I don't believe DL has been hit for price fixing on cargo. Mainly because they haven't done it. The only case I can remember involved several f
96 Mir : But as restricted areas go, it's tiny. If that balloon area were such an obstacle, then DCA would be screwed. They've got a prohibited area of simila
97 MPDPilot : I would be curious who you talked to. I am also curious why none of this is published as being anywhere near as 'Bad'. I looked at the charts, the ru
98 BMI727 : MTOW for the 737-700ER (which DL doesn't even have) is only 171,000 lbs, with a MLW of about 129,000 lbs.
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