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Why Is AA Running 4 763s A Day ORD-MIA?  
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4470 posts, RR: 7
Posted (5 years 20 hours ago) and read 12376 times:

Later this autumn, as mentioned a few weeks ago on here, AA will be flying a mix of 757s and 763s on ORD-MIA-ORD.

It appears that all of these 763s just head down to MIA from ORD and then turn around an hour later to head back to ORD.

Why is AA doing this? Isn't the 757 a more efficient aircraft, especially on such a short hop as this one?

And if the reason is that AA has some 763s just hanging around during the day, it's a shame they didn't put them on MIA-LAX instead, where we desperately need a better biz/first product than the ratty 757s currently dominating that route.

88 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11637 posts, RR: 61
Reply 1, posted (5 years 20 hours ago) and read 12368 times:



Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):
Why is AA doing this? Isn't the 757 a more efficient aircraft, especially on such a short hop as this one?

The 767s are used because, first, during peak winter season, AA does move a whole lot of people down to Florida from Chicago, and also via the Miami nexus to the Caribbean. Second, cargo is also likely a big driver - AA moves a lot of cargo up out of South America and up through Chicago to get to Europe and Asia.


User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3208 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (5 years 20 hours ago) and read 12340 times:



Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):
It appears that all of these 763s just head down to MIA from ORD and then turn around an hour later to head back to ORD.

At face value it may appear that. However, I would bet quite a lot that these flights are all for the purposes of widebody rotations.

ORD and MIA don't have many rotation points between the two in regard to widebodies. CDG is about the only one I can think of off the top of my head. So, AA sends them domestically most likely to keep up widebody fleet/route rotations.

Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):
Why is AA doing this? Isn't the 757 a more efficient aircraft, especially on such a short hop as this one?

They may be timed for the peak-demand times of the day. And again, it's not that these aircraft are necessarily just "sitting around" or idle, it's just that AA doesn't want small chunks of their 763 fleet stranded in any one hub, continuously doing the same flights.


User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (5 years 20 hours ago) and read 12231 times:

When I flew ORD-MIA-ORD on the AA 763, ended up getting the same 763 both ways. It turned around in MIA. However I believe the flight number was to continue onward to CDG out of MIA. So it still required a change of aircrafts.

It sure was fun to fly the 763 ORD-MIA, I really enjoyed it!

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (5 years 18 hours ago) and read 11851 times:

It's a throwback to the 80s, when AA flew mid-con widebodies all the time. For example, DFW-EWR was DC10 or 767 on every flight I remember as a kid.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineFlyMeToTheMoon From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 242 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 hours ago) and read 10793 times:

... ahem, maybe because they have enough passengers?  Big grin


Fly me to the moon... but not through LHR!
User currently offlineBrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4227 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 hours ago) and read 10720 times:



Quoting FlyMeToTheMoon (Reply 5):
... ahem, maybe because they have enough passengers?

This is the most simplest of expanations. During the winter I am sure that more then a few people are heading south and they probably need the capacity.

I not ORD slot restricted? If they are then they probably cannot fly many more flights into MIA from ORD.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineAnetter123 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 hours ago) and read 10616 times:

I find it quite funny seeing AA fly all these 767's to ORD from MIA while UAX flys their two little E-170 jets to the same city they also hub out of...lol. Gotta give A for effort to even maintain a presence in the market...lol.  Smile

User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3795 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 hours ago) and read 10530 times:
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Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
DFW-EWR was DC10

So were DFW-LGA and DFW-BOS.

Ben Soriano



Ben Soriano
User currently offlinePRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1139 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 hours ago) and read 10365 times:

That's GREAT! The comfort of a wide-body is very welcomed on a 3hr flight. Besides there is a lot of traffic between MIA-ORD hubs. AA can sell a bunch of upgrades on the Business Class cabin, move cargo, etc. on the 767s. I rather fly a 767 over the uncomfortable 757 any day.  Smile

User currently offlineKingFriday013 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1300 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 hours ago) and read 9888 times:

This would be a good flight for the A300: lots of people, and a LOT of cargo. I don't even like Airbus, but I'll say AA definitely made good use of their A300s. Too bad they're gone...  tombstone 

-J.



Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you, By the livin' Gawd that made you, You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3795 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 hours ago) and read 9815 times:
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Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 10):
This would be a good flight for the A300:

They did fly the A300 from MIA to ORD back in the 90's. I remember each time I saw an AA A300 in ORD I knew right away it was coming from MIA. Out of ORD, it was only to MIA American flew the A300.

Ben Soriano



Ben Soriano
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8379 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 hours ago) and read 9603 times:



Quoting Anetter123 (Reply 7):
I find it quite funny seeing AA fly all these 767's to ORD from MIA while UAX flys their two little E-170 jets to the same city they also hub out of...lol. Gotta give A for effort to even maintain a presence in the market...lol.

By your statement, we shoudl expect ever domestic route connected to a hub to be operated by a large airpane. You're comparing apples and oranges. MIA is AA's Latin america and Caribbean hub. Not only does AA move a lot of cargo thru there, they also move a lot of people flying down to S.Florida and and the Caribbean. AA is the dominant US carrier to Latin America and Caribbean and MIA is front and center of that market. UA's traffic to MIA is strictly passenger O&D.


User currently offlineFsnuffer From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 252 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 hours ago) and read 9603 times:

I know CO use to send a 777 round trip from EWR -> MCO for crew training purposes. Easy way to build up take off and landing experiance

User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3527 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 hours ago) and read 9389 times:



Quoting American 767 (Reply 11):
I remember each time I saw an AA A300 in ORD I knew right away it was coming from MIA. Out of ORD, it was only to MIA American flew the A300.

Speaking of ORD-MIA, the movie Home Alone 2 got it at least partially right - the McAllister family took an A300 from ORD to "Florida" - no mention of it being MIA but most likely it was. Kevin of course got on the wrong flight, an A300 to LGA ... did AA every fly with Airbus equip?



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23021 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 hours ago) and read 9318 times:



Quoting Brilondon (Reply 6):
I not ORD slot restricted?

No.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 2):
ORD and MIA don't have many rotation points between the two in regard to widebodies. CDG is about the only one I can think of off the top of my head. So, AA sends them domestically most likely to keep up widebody fleet/route rotations.

Interestingly, though, as recently as two years ago, there was very little domestic rotation; there was a 763 that flew MIA-ORD-EZE-ORD-MIA and that was the only widebody on MIA-ORD.

They do indeed appear to rotate 763s at CDG, though.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLACA773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4018 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 hours ago) and read 9161 times:
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ORD-LAX also used to be a widebody route back in the day. Those defintely were the days.

Up to 9/11 many of the IAD/BOS-LAX/SFO flights were all operated with 762s as well as a D10 here and there. TW flew these routes with L10s/762s.


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4470 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 hours ago) and read 9112 times:



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 12):
MIA is AA's Latin america and Caribbean hub. Not only does AA move a lot of cargo thru there, they also move a lot of people flying down to S.Florida and and the Caribbean. AA is the dominant US carrier to Latin America and Caribbean and MIA is front and center of that market. UA's traffic to MIA is strictly passenger O&D.

But.... if that were true, why haven't they been doing this all along? It's not like the economy is booming at the moment...


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32788 posts, RR: 72
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 hours ago) and read 9011 times:



Quoting N62NA (Reply 17):

But.... if that were true, why haven't they been doing this all along? It's not like the economy is booming at the moment...

They didn't have excess 763 capacity like now.

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 16):
ORD-LAX also used to be a widebody route back in the day. Those defintely were the days.

There is still a daily 763, and on SFO-ORD, too.



a.
User currently offlineBRJ From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 264 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 hours ago) and read 8909 times:



Quoting Planespotting (Reply 14):
Speaking of ORD-MIA, the movie Home Alone 2 got it at least partially right - the McAllister family took an A300 from ORD to "Florida" - no mention of it being MIA but most likely it was. Kevin of course got on the wrong flight, an A300 to LGA ... did AA every fly with Airbus equip?

I believe both aircraft were 767-200s in Home Alone 2, not A300s.


User currently offlineDFWEagle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1071 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 hours ago) and read 8891 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):
Interestingly, though, as recently as two years ago, there was very little domestic rotation; there was a 763 that flew MIA-ORD-EZE-ORD-MIA and that was the only widebody on MIA-ORD.

They do indeed appear to rotate 763s at CDG, though.

One daily flight on ORD-LAX and ORD-SFO are 763’s which do not turn back to Chicago. These flights have operated for a very long time and (along with CDG) are the primary routes for 763 aircraft to rotate into and out of the Chicago network.



Ryan / HKG
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8379 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 hours ago) and read 8663 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):
Quoting N62NA (Reply 17):

But.... if that were true, why haven't they been doing this all along? It's not like the economy is booming at the moment...

They didn't have excess 763 capacity like now.

And I also suspect that Winter is the high season for this route. It's not at all uncommon for airlines to shift capacity from TATL routes to other areas such as Caribbean and Latin America.


User currently offlineAJMIA From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 733 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 hours ago) and read 8606 times:

I really think the extra MIA-ORD capacity will come in handy.
I very often see passengers routed through DCA, STL, ATL etc to get to ORD because the nonstop flights are so full.
With the frequency already on the route, bigger a/c seem to make more sense then to tie up valuable gates with another 757 or two.

AJMIA



Lady it's a jet... not a kite.
User currently offlinePRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1139 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 hour ago) and read 8457 times:

The 763 has the capacity to fly "snowbirds" from ORD's winter down to sunny South Florida and Caribbean connections. AA also flew widebody's from ORD to SJU years ago (A300/D10) for that same purpose. They will fill up the 763's to MIA.

User currently offlineDC8FanJet From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 hour ago) and read 8120 times:

[

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 6):
Is not ORD slot restricted?

No. Slots at ORD were ended last fall when the new runway opened. ORD now has a
theoretical maximum arrival rate of 112 aircraft per hour, and demand never goes that high.


25 UAL747DEN : I'm glad you find that funny, it's always nice to smile and laugh! After you regain your composure you might think about the two airlines and it shou
26 MAH4546 : Really? The zero daily flights UA flies to FLL is larger than MIA's five?
27 413X3 : a lot of 763s over 752s would to me seem like a lot of passenger load and a lot of cargo going each way
28 Transpac787 : At least AA actually *tries* to compete with mainline aircraft and more than two daily flights
29 United1 : Gentlemen (or ladies I haven't checked your profile) getting in a pissing match over who completes with whom in a certain market is silly. Both airli
30 FreequentFlier : Give it time. In AA's hub-realignment announcement, AA stated they are shifting some CRJ-700s to ORD-DEN while UA flies a few widebodies. ORD-DEN (hu
31 FreequentFlier : Additionally, UA runs several daily flight from ORD to COS (DEN's "reliever" airport) while AA runs none, having left the market recently. UA doesn't
32 N62NA : I know, I live in Miami and am familiar with the snowbirds. But the "mass exodus" reason quoted by you and others here could also be applied to LGA-M
33 MAH4546 : It's a major business market that demands high-frequency. If anything, AA needs to add another two dailies. 10 daily is too little. The 9AM departure
34 N62NA : 10 daily is way too much. It's grossly inefficient. And most times you just end up sitting out on the taxiway waiting in line for takeoff for at leas
35 Anetter123 : Some of you folks need to stop becoming defensive AND offensive over statements such as the one I made. It was not meant to start an argument or make
36 FlyDeltaJets87 : What flight are you taking from ORD to FLL on UA? Please tell us. I'd be delighted to know. Because per United's own website, the options for flights
37 Yellowtail : Can't AA rotate them at LHR too?
38 Transpac787 : Not between ORD and MIA, those are all 777's. In regard to the 777 fleet, there are a LOT of rotations in LHR (as well as NRT), those two being the p
39 American 767 : And BRU, soon. But the LHR-BRU flight will be a continuation of the BOS-LHR flight, same AA flight number. Ben Soriano
40 MAH4546 : Starting in November, 763s will operate the ORD-LHR daylight and the early afternoon MIA-LHR rotations.
41 UAL747DEN : I count 8 flights that will get you from ORD to FLL. I don't really think that its a big surprise or secret that we use US metal into Florida. If you
42 MAH4546 : I understand the business far better than you do. There are zero daily UA flights to Fort Lauderdale. Amazing that I can understand that, and you do
43 N62NA : Let's all cool down a bit here, please. After all, this is the "civil" aviation forum!
44 DC8FanJet : Every time this topic comes up on Anet, someone tries to justify UA service to MIA/FLL. Let's look at history. National Airlines was big in South Flor
45 N62NA : My all time favorite airline! Uh oh... MAH4546 will probably strongly disagree with you there.
46 Jetblast : So do the vast majority of pilots and flight attendants, and I don't see them flaunting their infinite knowledge of the airline industry all over the
47 Transpac787 : ORD IS ALSO THE HUB FOR UA!!!!!!!!!!!! And yet they run two daily RJ's on ORD-MIA, spaced nearly 12 hours apart. I doubt AA even notices the bite. On
48 MAH4546 : Um, yes it is. Just about any non-stop flight between two of the ten largest cities in the U.S. is a major business market. I used to fly the route 1
49 Commavia : According to who? Who are you to decide what is "way too much" or "grossly inefficient?" If AA feels that the optimal MIA-LGA for them is 10x daily,
50 NoMoreRJs : If AA couldn't fill 4 763's a day between ORD and MIA they would use the resources elsewhere. As mentioned above, UA is down to two ERJs on ORD-MIA. T
51 FlyDeltaJets87 : I'll always become defensive of AA? Did you even notice the screenname? Have you looked at the route map in my profile? You'll notice a lot of spokes
52 N62NA : People, stop fighting with each other... it's supposed to be a hobby chat site! According to.... me! However... I don't get to decide anything re: AA'
53 Commavia : A.net has been over this argument so many times before - whether its LGA-ORD, LGA-MIA, or some other route. Even if some might think it is less effic
54 Bismarck : Flight #90, ORD-LHR (daylight flight) has already been switched to a 767-300.
55 FlyDeltaJets87 : What I find amusing is the price difference between flights 30 minutes apart (literally). Delta runs 17 flights a day between MCO and ATL. I am flyin
56 MAH4546 : When your business meeting gets out at 4PM, you need the flexibility of 30 minutes. I have spent $30-50 more to leave 30-45 minutes later multiple ti
57 Cubsrule : But you have to conceptualize it differently than most people do. What you are buying, in essence, is a guarantee that the flight will leave no earli
58 FlyDeltaJets87 : I don't think you "need" it. I think you "want" it. It's a "convenience". But with the unreliability of air travel, are you really depending on those
59 MAH4546 : I "need" it to the extent that if I have a meeting that gets out at 4PM, I can't take a 4.30 or 4.45 flight. If there wasn't a 5.30pm flight, that's
60 N62NA : Not really a good example MAH, but I understand the point you are trying to make. So if that 5:30pm flight is so important, why not eliminate the 4:4
61 Cubsrule : ...because some people get out of their meetings at 3, and some people get out at 5. That's why you need a lot of frequency!
62 Steex : The issue is that, in markets that are extremely competitive and business oriented, the scheduling issue MAH highlighted repeats itself throughout th
63 N62NA : Yeah, I know, I get the point (actually I got the point when I posted earlier). Well, anyway, I'm not going to turn this into the "airports are too c
64 Tharanga : If I can interrupt the fighting, can somebody explain why this is important? Why must an individual aircraft be rotated around the entire route netwo
65 N62NA : I believe that rotating the aircraft means that eventually, it will end up at one of the cities where the airline has comprehensive maintenance facil
66 FlyDeltaJets87 : My guess would be maintenance, because some maintenance checks are based on hours flown, others based on calendar time, and others based on number of
67 MAH4546 : But where is that 763 magically going to appear from? On a hub-to-hub route, the need to rotate aircraft via hubs for maintenance, international posi
68 Tharanga : I thought that as soon as I typed my question. Would that imply that MIA has some AA maintenance facility that ORD lacks, or vice versa? Now that's a
69 MAH4546 : I don't think its maintenance. I think its getting aircraft between South America and Europe.
70 Tharanga : But why is that useful? Sorry if I'm being slow to understand.
71 MAH4546 : A plane can do Rio de Janeiro-Miami-Port Au Prince-Miami-Chicago-Paris instead of sitting on the ground all day in Miami or Chicago in between flight
72 Cubsrule : Also, if planes went to deep South America all the time, they'd tend to have lower cycles than similarly-aged planes going to Europe because of the l
73 N62NA : I don't know about ORD, but MIA does have maintenance facilities that, say, EWR probably wouldn't. But most of the additional 763s going to MIA from
74 MAH4546 : We can't tell that from the schedule. We don't know if the same exact 763 is the one doing the turn-around.
75 N62NA : It will be... trust me!
76 AAAL : It could probably be to have aircraft spares at each hub to back up any of 767 trips they have. Kinda of like MIA-LAX with the B777. Funny, I don't th
77 MAH4546 : Well, then, AA simply has excess 763 capacity, and MIA-ORD is a good place to put it. Although that actually serves a purpose beyond just being a par
78 AAAL : AGREED! Especially since the 738s are the next to get WIFI. I think LGA needs an 0900 departure on LGA-ORD and hourly service between LGA-MIA.
79 FlyDeltaJets87 : Delta had 767s on short domestic routes up till this year to JAX, MCO, TPA, and few other Florida destinations. They still run 767s domestically to a
80 MAH4546 : Obviously. Although AA actually has some unused slots. AA tried to retire 40 slots last year. A request to DOT to retire them was denied, and AA wasn
81 American 767 : No, but American is the second largest 767 operator after Delta. American has 73 767's including 15 200ER's used on transcons flights out of JFK and
82 MAH4546 : No, it does not. That is long gone. AA has two 767 configs, one for three-class domestic and one for two-class international. Delta has more configs,
83 Tharanga : I was happy to buy the idea that aircraft rotation was to minimise ground time and thus maximise fleet-wide aircraft utilisation, but it doesn't look
84 FlyDeltaJets87 : Calm down there. I was speaking in generalities, not for one specific airline. However, I still believe things in the airline industry would flow muc
85 FreequentFlier : Out of curiousity, what part of the entertainment industry flies LAX-MIA? I'm assuming Univision and Telemundo, but who else? There's not much film/T
86 N62NA : I always wondered that as well. Perhaps it's just that many entertainment industry types (the more well-compensated) have homes down here and they sp
87 Bmacleod : All has to do with demand I guess. More passenger demand often leads to bigger aircraft on a particular route. I remember 10 years ago AA would often
88 MAH4546 : Music industry is the biggest driver, along with Spanish television, modeling and talent agencies and film studios, as well as the talent themselves.
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