Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Will AS Move From EWR To JFK  
User currently offlineRgreenftm From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 299 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6325 times:

With CO leaving ST next month and also ending their codeshare with AS, is it really logical to keep AS at EWR? Would it make more sense to move to either JFK or less likely LGA?

It would seem AS likely is gaining a fair amount of connecting traffic for EWR International flights, that they will loose now that they don't have the CO assistance.

EDIT: Should state what is probably the obvious: my reason for suggesting JFK/LGA would be to closer align with DL/NW for Intl and East Coast flights

[Edited 2009-09-22 04:00:29]

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5947 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6225 times:

I have mixed emotions about this.
EWR is the best (arguably) airport to reach Manhattan. So there's a draw there.
That said, without CO to feed, not sure why AS would not go join up with DL at JFK.
I'm still upset at the divorce between CO and AS; that's what happens when a CO elite from Texas moves to Anchorage. No, there is NO Star representation on intra-state flights in Alaska. That's aggravating to me.
But, anyhow, I think I can foresee them moving, UNLESS O&D out of EWR is good enough to stay.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6161 times:

Quoting Rgreenftm (Thread starter):
With CO leaving ST next month and also ending their codeshare with AS, is it really logical to keep AS at EWR? Would it make more sense to move to either JFK or less likely LGA?

I don't see them leaving EWR, although they will probably be moving from CO's gates at A-2 to DL's gates at B1. LGA is out of the question since the perimeter rule in place prohibits flights outside of a 1,500 mile radius from LGA (save DEN).

So it would be between EWR and JFK, firstly I seriously doubt AS's flights dependend on moving traffic through EWR to CO's International flights. CO and AS did not have that type of relationship, AS was flying to EWR to serve passengers wishing to fly from the Pacific Northwest to the New York City area. There already are three airlines serving JFK-SEA (B6, AA, DL), if AS left EWR CO would be happy as they would gain all that traffic. I don't see where moving to JFK would be beneficial to DL or AS, DL has their own SEA flights from JFK.

Also keep in mind that EWR serves not only Manhattan but also the Northern New Jersey business centers which is home to 21 Fortune 500 companies, many of which have strong ties to major corporations in the Northwest. Honeywell is based in Morristown New Jersey, and they have a strong relationship with Boeing through their Aviation division.

[Edited 2009-09-22 06:05:01]


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5905 times:

I think they'll stay put - AS doesn't really feed a ton of CO traffic anyways; CO carries most of it themselves. With B6, AA, and DL at JFK, it would seemingly make more sense to offer EWR.

User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2951 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5873 times:

Well first, they will need to obtain slots at JFK - desirable ones. There aren't many (or any) of those available right now and in spite of how cozy they seem to be with DL (or AA for that matter), neither giant would be willing to hand over a slot to AS - especially since they both operate JFK-SEA and code share with AS.

So, what's the point of moving? They already, via code-share, operate SEA-JFK (and DL has a PDX-JFK). I think AS will stay put.


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4593 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5793 times:

I see a day coming (perhaps in the next few years) when all domestic USA airlines currently serving EWR will switch to RJs (with the exception of CO, of course).

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5685 times:



Quoting N62NA (Reply 5):
I see a day coming (perhaps in the next few years) when all domestic USA airlines currently serving EWR will switch to RJs (with the exception of CO, of course).

DL Regional Jets to Salt Lake City, Atlanta and Amsterdam?
UA Regional Jets to San Francisco?
AA Regional Jets to San Juan?



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5792 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5649 times:



Quoting N62NA (Reply 5):
I see a day coming (perhaps in the next few years) when all domestic USA airlines currently serving EWR will switch to RJs (with the exception of CO, of course).



Quoting STT757 (Reply 6):
DL Regional Jets to Salt Lake City, Atlanta and Amsterdam?
UA Regional Jets to San Francisco?
AA Regional Jets to San Juan?

Well, and considering that this thread was about Alaska, regional jets EWR-SEA? Unless they get the 190 (and I don't even know if that would make it, or if it even is a "regional jet"), I can't see how dropping EWR would be good for them.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4593 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5596 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 6):
DL Regional Jets to Salt Lake City, Atlanta and Amsterdam?
UA Regional Jets to San Francisco?
AA Regional Jets to San Juan?

Think about what I wrote.  Smile

I know as well as you that RJs can't make it from EWR to SFO, SJU, DEN, SLC, etc.

However, there was a time, not too far in the past, when the thought of UA RJs on EWR-ORD would have been unheard of.

My point is, the legacies (with the obvious exception of CO) have continued to shrink, shrink, shrink at EWR (and I am talking with their own metal).

AA's schedule to ORD has shrunk dramatically. Same with DFW. AA is down 50% on their EWR-LAX schedule.

UA has eliminated EWR-LAX and uses the absolutely smallest mainline plane they have (319) on EWR-SFO.

US... well, if you want to go to CLT, they are a great choice... how come they don't serve anywhere else from EWR (own metal, not "express").

NW already uses RJs from EWR to DTW (folks, it used to be DC10s).

How long until Comair starts infiltrating EWR-ATL?

While on the surface my statement may seem ludicrous, in reality, it is not. (OK maybe not 100% RJs in the future, but you get my drift)


User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6932 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5578 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 2):
CO's gates at A-2 to DL's gates at B1

Actually AS is in UA's A-1 and I think their position in that terminal is rather new. B-1 is possibility, but I think AS was in A-2 before (correct me if I'm wrong) and not very long ago.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 5):
I see a day coming (perhaps in the next few years) when all domestic USA airlines currently serving EWR will switch to RJs (with the exception of CO, of course).

Well, i'm sure people who fly CO exclusively out of EWR wouldn't mind seeing that but the truth is that other US carriers have profitable routes out of EWR that won't suffice on RJs. UA EWR-DEN, UA EWR-ORD, DL EWR-ATL, DL EWR-SLC, AA EWR-DFW are all profitable and will always have a majority of mainline on these routes.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 6):
AA Regional Jets to San Juan?

AA stopped flying EWR-SJU in 2008, unfortunately.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4593 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5553 times:



Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 9):
Well, i'm sure people who fly CO exclusively out of EWR wouldn't mind seeing that but the truth is that other US carriers have profitable routes out of EWR that won't suffice on RJs. UA EWR-DEN, UA EWR-ORD, DL EWR-ATL, DL EWR-SLC, AA EWR-DFW are all profitable and will always have a majority of mainline on these routes.

RJs are already on UA's EWR-ORD service.

Anyone wanna bet we'll see some RJs on EWR-ATL at some point in the coming years?


User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2087 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5536 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 9):

Actually AS is in UA's A-1 and I think their position in that terminal is rather new. B-1 is possibility, but I think AS was in A-2 before (correct me if I'm wrong) and not very long ago.

Nope, AS has been in A-1 (Gate 18) since atleast March 2007. I remember flying EWR-SEA back then from that gate



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6932 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5536 times:



Quoting N62NA (Reply 10):
RJs are already on UA's EWR-ORD service.

Anyone wanna bet we'll see some RJs on EWR-ATL at some point in the coming years?

EWR-ORD is 4x CR7 a day but only temporary, switching back to 2 in the spring because of seasonal MX on the airbus a/c in the fall.

EWR-ATL is flown with a variety. Not all times of the day will it need to see mainline. Thats why there are only 2x RJ a day out of the 11 times served. You probably won't see that much more than that as EWR-ATL has been shown as a very profitable route for DL as recently as last quarter.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4593 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5495 times:



Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 12):
EWR-ATL is flown with a variety. Not all times of the day will it need to see mainline. Thats why there are only 2x RJ a day out of the 11 times served. You probably won't see that much more than that as EWR-ATL has been shown as a very profitable route for DL as recently as last quarter.

Interesting, I missed that one. So the RJs are already on EWR-ATL.

Again, my point is, who would have even thought there would be RJs flying as "legacy" carriers on these important markets.

At what point in the future does it become more cost-effective NOT to have mainline staff/ops at EWR and instead farm all the flying out to RJs?

It could happen!


User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6932 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5442 times:



Quoting N62NA (Reply 13):
At what point in the future does it become more cost-effective NOT to have mainline staff/ops at EWR and instead farm all the flying out to RJs?

There was a thread that I'm sure you saw or even contributed to a few weeks ago of UA going low at EWR and making it an all mainline station. A few reasons why you probably wont see this happen.

First, EWR-ORD and EWR-DEN/SFO are profitable mainline routes that like EWR-ATL will see CR7/CR9 at certain times of the day with an F cabin (TO ORD NOT ON DEN/SFO THOUGH) but will make up for it with mainline on Airbus and 757 during peak rush periods during the main bank at the hubs. Thats why UA 651 at 5:30pm (one of the most delayed flights in the US as well) is always a 319/320 or a 752 because it connects to the last outgoing bank of the night at ORD. Same reason why DL 1991 at 6:15am is always a 757 because it connects to the first bank or morning departure at ATL. Yes UA has cut EWR to a pathetic size of what they used to be but they are not going to go that low.

Second, EWR is a New York City airport and it really cannot be ignored. Its not a BDL, PVD, PIT, or MHT. It serves a major metropolitan area with massive demand in both New York City and Northern New Jersey whose customer and corporate base is wealthy enough to pay premiums for fares even at the last second for business and leisure.

Third, similar to what UA did at MIA they downsized their mainline presence to almost nothing but did not get rid of their mainline employees despite flying E170s to ORD and IAD. They keep them on staff in case they want to bring mainline back but also to serve the seasonal 1x 320 flight from DEN....

So for even other mainline carriers its not cost effective to go all RJ at EWR, unless they want to risk loosing money...



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6932 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5401 times:



Quoting N62NA (Reply 8):
My point is, the legacies (with the obvious exception of CO) have continued to shrink, shrink, shrink at EWR (and I am talking with their own metal).

DL with the NW absorption has actually done well and hasn't shrunk that much yet if at all. MSP/DTW/MEM get DC9, 319, and E175 (the E175 i don't really consider an RJ because they are actually really nice) ATL remains on a variable basis CR7/CR9/M88/738/757, SLC gets 2x 738 year round and sometimes seasonally switches to 2x 757. The AMS flight remains as a DL 763ER. So no real cutting yet. Even CVG remains as 4-5x RJ daily.

AA's schedule to ORD has shrunk dramatically. Same with DFW. AA is down 50% on their EWR-LAX schedule.

AA is weird at EWR. They cut SJU (dumb if you ask me) but keep MIA at 3x 757. LAX was a 767 for the whole summer and through november, briefly becomes a 757 around christmas and then switches to one of the new 738s early next year. ORD I could see running CR7s eventually but contrary to popular belief will see a new 738 turn around through december and january. DFW does well on the 6x S80, but wonder when it will switch up to 1-2x 738...



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlinePhxIAHszxJNU From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5325 times:



Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 9):
US... well, if you want to go to CLT, they are a great choice... how come they don't serve anywhere else from EWR (own metal, not "express").

US flies to PHX as well



James
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13748 posts, RR: 61
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5247 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Everyone relax - AS is not leaving EWR. The SEA-EWR service has never been about providing connectivity to CO's international operations; it's about providing loyal AS customers with convenient nonstop service to the New York area.


"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4593 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5173 times:



Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 14):
EWR is a New York City airport and it really cannot be ignored.

Yeah, I know....  Smile

But really, as a business person, would I want to NOT fly CO out of EWR and instead have to connect in IAD, CVG, ATL, DFW, DTW or MSP to get to where I really need to go?

The other legacy carriers realize this and provide nonstop service (from LGA) to many of the non-hub business centers. Heck, JFK even gets AA's AFS and UA's p.s. service to make up for the silly rule at LGA about transcon flights not being allowed during weekdays.

I know EWR really well.... was my home airport for the first 38 years of my life. Not saying you or STT757 don't know EWR really well either, just that, as I have lamented many times on here, the other legacies have always considered EWR an "after-thought" when it comes to NYC airports.

So, let me rephrase.... perhaps not 100%, but 50% or more RJ service from legacies (besides CO) serving EWR on domestic routes is a very real possibility at some point in the future.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5087 times:



Quoting N62NA (Reply 18):
So, let me rephrase.... perhaps not 100%, but 50% or more RJ service from legacies (besides CO) serving EWR on domestic routes is a very real possibility at some point in the future.

What US domestic airport is not seeing a shift from mainline to Regional Jets, seems to me they all are. EWR is no worse than any other US airport, in fact considering that EWR has trans Atlantic flights from more than one Domestic carrier and Trans-Continental service from four Domestic carriers I would say they're doing pretty good.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineDiegoDangers From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5029 times:



Quoting N62NA (Reply 8):
US... well, if you want to go to CLT, they are a great choice... how come they don't serve anywhere else from EWR (own metal, not "express").

they fly mainline to CLT and PHX


User currently offlineJBAirwaysFan From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1042 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4931 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 19):
What US domestic airport is not seeing a shift from mainline to Regional Jets, seems to me they all are. EWR is no worse than any other US airport, in fact considering that EWR has trans Atlantic flights from more than one Domestic carrier and Trans-Continental service from four Domestic carriers I would say they're doing pretty good.

You know, I don't really see DL's station at LGA transitioning to RJ's. DL maintains a hefty ATL sched out of LGA with mostly 757s and all their NYC-Florida service (exception is JAX) is seeing all mainline sized a/c. (MCO, PBI, FLL, TPA)



In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4840 times:

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 21):
, I don't really see DL's station at LGA transitioning to RJ's.

What about the Shuttle, I would call that a major transition. 16-17 daily flights transfered from Mainline to Regional Partner Shuttle America.

[Edited 2009-09-22 17:21:03]


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4791 times:



Quoting N62NA (Reply 18):
So, let me rephrase.... perhaps not 100%, but 50% or more RJ service from legacies (besides CO) serving EWR on domestic routes is a very real possibility at some point in the future.

CO hopefully will be adding additional domestic mainline flights from EWR in the next two-three years. Even though CO is retiring their remaining 20 737-300s and 9 additional 737-500s, they are taking delivery of 55 new aircraft (737-800s, 737-900ERs, 757-300s) which means a net gain of 26 mainline domestic aircraft for CO. Hopefully some of those will be replacing Regional Jets.

There's also an additional 15 Q-400s coming on board starting in 2010 for CO Connection, while not a mainline aircraft it's still a big capacity increase (74 seats vs 50 Seats) over the ERJs.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineJBAirwaysFan From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1042 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4757 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 22):
What about the Shuttle, I would call that a major transition. 16-17 daily flights transfered from Mainline to Regional Partner Shuttle America.

Yes, but there are still 16-17 daily flights that are manline in shuttle too. LGA-DCA is Shuttle America, but LGA-DCA is still M80s. I would also hardly call going from M80s to E75s much of a downgrade in service either. IMO, I don't really consider E75s to be Regional Jet's either. E75s still offer the amenities of mainline. Now, if they went from M80s to CR7s that would be different, but E75s still offer F Class and they function more like a mainline a/c than an RJ IMO. IIRC, Air Canada uses E75s in their mainline fleet.



In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
25 N62NA : Yeah I know... but they also fly RJs EWR-CLT.
26 STT757 : Anyway you slice it, 17 mainline flights going to a Regional Jet operated by a Regional Carrier. Shuttle America is not DL, and the E-75 while nice i
27 JBAirwaysFan : Then what is the traditional sense of the term? As I mentioned, the E75 is part of Air Canada's MAINLINE fleet.
28 STT757 : Any aircraft that contractual must be flown by a DL pilot, and handled by DL ground employees.
29 JBAirwaysFan : DL ground employees don't handle Delta Connection flights at LGA? I know they do at ATL now, in fact, all DL Connection flights are now handled by DL
30 Cschleic : And that's the point with their service to Washington and Boston and Houston and Dallas and Atlanta soon and...... Plus, while they did codeshare wit
31 Threeifbyair : Also, with CO leaving the AS Mileage Plan, SEA-EWR passengers who want to earn AS miles will have no other option than AS. On SEA-JFK, both AA (1x dai
32 DeltaL1011man : OH already runs 1x daily CR7 on ATL-EWR........as long as DL keeps making the push they are making in NYC ATL-JFK,EWR and LGA will stay mostly Mainli
33 Tommy767 : Yeah thats what it always have been known to be and it also because no airline really pushed through to have a hub presence until the early 1980s. On
34 WorldTraveler : Let's reemember that both AA and DL who are AS codeshare partners both fly JFK-SEA. There iis little reason for AS to move over to JFK in order to bec
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Cheapest Way To Get From EWR To JFK posted Fri Mar 14 2003 07:26:24 by Flyinghighboy
DL Move LAX Flights To JFK T4 posted Mon Feb 23 2009 22:15:14 by RetroLivery
Emirates A380 Enroute From LAX To JFK posted Wed Aug 6 2008 09:16:30 by Vulindlela744
British Airways From EWR To LHR Deverted posted Tue Jun 3 2008 16:39:41 by MKE22
3rd Daily KLM/NWA Flight From AMS To JFK? posted Tue Jan 29 2008 06:48:14 by Schipholjfk
U.S. Carriers Move From LGW To LHR posted Thu Jan 24 2008 01:59:19 by RampGuy
Move From THR To IKA posted Fri Oct 26 2007 13:50:48 by A300
American, Delta, Northwest Move From Orly To CDG posted Fri Oct 26 2007 05:11:43 by Mats
Easy Jet To Move From T3 To T2B At CDG posted Tue Oct 9 2007 17:29:38 by Stevens91
Ecotax: Easyjet To Move From AMS To BRU posted Fri Sep 7 2007 14:26:56 by KL911