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Laser Pointed At FX Plane On Approach To BUF  
User currently offlineKBUF From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 545 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 12 months 3 hours ago) and read 4963 times:

http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/799761.html

The laser was then subsequently pointed at an Erie County Sheriff's helicopter investigating the incident.


"Starting today, the Buffalo Sabres' reason for existence will be to win a Stanley Cup."-Terry Pegula, February 22, 2011
22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineRampguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 12 months 3 hours ago) and read 4924 times:

I'll bet they are not laughing now.

User currently offlineTharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1865 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 12 months 2 hours ago) and read 4827 times:

why do idiots keep doing this? what is the motivation? i don't get it.

User currently offlineYOWza From Nepal, joined Jul 2005, 4887 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (4 years 12 months 2 hours ago) and read 4820 times:



Quoting Tharanga (Reply 2):
why do idiots keep doing this? what is the motivation? i don't get it.

Have you been to Buffalo? Not much else going on in town  Wink

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineOly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6725 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (4 years 12 months 2 hours ago) and read 4794 times:



Quoting Tharanga (Reply 2):
why do idiots keep doing this? what is the motivation? i don't get it.

new idiots don't pay any attention to what old idiots have been apprehended for. And, hey, it's a laser, you've got to point it at things. After you've had the cat or dog running round in circles and annoyed the neighbours there's got to be something else to aim at. And I expect they think that they'll never be found.



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlineRikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1645 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (4 years 12 months 1 hour ago) and read 4735 times:



Quoting Oly720man (Reply 4):
After you've had the cat or dog running round in circles and annoyed the neighbours there's got to be something else to aim at.

I never had the "opportunity" to do such a stupid stunt, as my airport was "too far out of town"... My best friends' laser pointer was actually the inner workings of an old barcode scanner...hardly portable! Find a piece of cut carnival glass: bowl or dish. Shine the light through it, and it defracts in a multitude of directions... but you HAVE to do it INSIDE (the only way you can see the effect properly). That'll keep you busy for at least a little while...almost like primitive computer graphics that are all the rage now. Add music, and you have a laser lightshow for a dance....errrrr..."rave"...

Unimaginative teens nowadays, always getting into trouble as a means of "entertainment"...  old 



AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4455 times:



Quoting YOWza (Reply 3):
Have you been to Buffalo? Not much else going on in town

Isn't that the truth. But certainly these hooligans could've broken into one of the thousands of abandoned factories and had fun in there...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5589 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4431 times:

I have always thought that a simple solution to this would be to have/require that the serial number of the device (and any other info you want) encoded into the beam. the operator would never notice and then you could simply install a laser sensor in the aircraft (or whatever) and it would capture the info.

It would not be the end all cure but it would allow most cases to be solved quickly and easily.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineLuv2cattlecall From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1650 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4136 times:
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Quoting Tugger (Reply 7):
I have always thought that a simple solution to this would be to have/require that the serial number of the device (and any other info you want) encoded into the beam. the operator would never notice and then you could simply install a laser sensor in the aircraft (or whatever) and it would capture the info.

It would not be the end all cure but it would allow most cases to be solved quickly and easily.

What about the millions of existing lasers? Also, I'm not sure the problem is serious enough to merit the surely exorbitant cost of installing serial number detectors on aircraft (and I would think that one could find a way around the encoding if they were so inclined..



When you have to breaststroke to your connecting flight...it's a crash!
User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5589 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4040 times:

Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 8):
What about the millions of existing lasers? Also, I'm not sure the problem is serious enough to merit the surely exorbitant cost of installing serial number detectors on aircraft (and I would think that one could find a way around the encoding if they were so inclined..

Well the "existing base" problem exists everywhere, it is seldom a reason to not roll out a new safety feature. And the cost of a detector is very cheap, not exorbitant at all. It is similar tech to that used in a car laser detector except in this case it would also record the data, which is very easy, lasers are used to send data in many applications and the ability to read them is well established.

As to the thought that people would find a way around the feature? Well again, that exist everywhere with any safety feature, but in general most people don't know or care enough to circumvent the safety tech. I don't know how easy it would be to circumvent the data encoding in the beam as it could be hard coded into the chip in the laser unit. And I doubt that any manufacturer could really have a good reason for not doing. The USA requires serial numbers and a record of it to be kept for lots of things so this would not be that big deal.

It's just a thought, a possible way to protect the public from malicious idiots that are out there.

Tugg

[Edited 2009-09-23 08:54:39]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3901 times:



Quoting Tugger (Reply 7):
I have always thought that a simple solution to this would be to have/require that the serial number of the device (and any other info you want) encoded into the beam

Yeah but wouldn't this be an extreme amount of trouble for a problem hasn't caused any accidents? I mean, it is just isolated incidents, and besides annoyances nothing has come about. It's good to be proactive but I think undertaking a large project like this when it will be relatively easy to get an "uncoded laser" (there will be millions of people that won't surrender their laser pointers to the government, that's ridiculous.) The government needs to stop meddling in everything anyway.



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineSwa4life From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 385 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3901 times:



Quoting Tugger (Reply 9):
Well the "existing base" problem exists everywhere, it is seldom a reason to not roll out a new safety feature. And the cost of a detector is very cheap, not exorbitant at all. It is similar tech to that used in a car laser detector except in this case it would also record the data, which is very easy, lasers are used to send data in many applications and the ability to read them is well established.

As to the thought that people would find a way around the feature? Well again, that exist everywhere with any safety feature, but in general most people don't know or care enough to circumvent the safety tech. I don't know how easy it would be to circumvent the data encoding in the beam as it could be hard coded into the chip in the laser unit. And I doubt that any manufacturer could really have a good reason for not doing. The USA requires serial numbers and a record of it to be kept for lots of things so this would not be that big deal.

It's just a thought, a possible way to protect the public from malicious idiots that are out there.

Tugg

Interesting idea but completely and 100% impractical and maybe even impossible. You're talking about laser pointers that cost less than $5 and are mass produced in China. I suppose it wouldn't be too difficult to encode a unique "ID" into each laser, but the problem you'll run into is that the unique code would have to be registered to the owner, otherwise what's the point. So now you're talking about some sort of governing body who'll be in charge of "registering" laser pointers and their respective owners.. Plus you'll have to get all of these Chinese laser diode manufacturers on the same page so that they're all programing unique codes with no redundancy.. Laser pointers are manufactured so cheaply and abundantly these days that this is simply not a practical idea.


User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5589 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3877 times:

Actually the problem is only with "green" lasers, they have the ability to do damage over a great distance. The more common red lasers pointer just don't go far enough to cause damage. Red lasers can still do damage close range but for lasers that can cause damage that can endanger aircraft you need a green laser.

From what I understand, yes it is possible to get a powerful laser in the other colors but they aren't the over the counter kind that malicious idiots can buy easily.

As to how to track all the purchased units, there would not need to be any large central database, just a serial number structure that is set up. Each company that imports lasers that are on "the danger list" has a unique serial identifier, they keep track of who buy each number (these sales are in the hundreds and into thousands each year) and if there is a problem the investigating agency simply calls the manufacturer or importer and says )how bought this unit".

Seems easy to me but again, this discussion is showing the difficulty involved. But seriously, is it worth that first pilot (or anyone) who loses their sight to not do anything?

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5136 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3869 times:

Same happened yesterday at EIN airbase/airport. Unfortunately for them thew where shining the laser at an Apache. Ofcourse they chased the persons with nightvision, and MP's arrested them soon after.

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3829 times:



Quoting KL911 (Reply 13):
Unfortunately for them thew where shining the laser at an Apache.

Bad choice of aircraft.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 3):
Not much else going on in town

They could have gone and strangled a cabbie.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineSwa4life From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 385 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3822 times:

http://www.dealextreme.com/products.dx/category.911

All of these cheapo lasers can be used to screw with an airplane.. All of these can be shipped direct from Hong Kong.


User currently offlineKalvado From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3749 times:



Quoting Tugger (Reply 7):
I have always thought that a simple solution to this would be to have/require that the serial number of the device (and any other info you want) encoded into the beam. the operator would never notice and then you could simply install a laser sensor in the aircraft (or whatever) and it would capture the info.

Just putting things into perspective - tagging every bullet with unique s/n and putting a black box into every seat of each aircraft would be equally "easy"; and probably orders of magnitude more useful
And who cares if it's $100 instead of $1?


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4561 posts, RR: 18
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3721 times:

I really have my doubts about this laser problem. I have one. I use it to entertain cats. I have one that lays up in a window and I try and shine the laser between the ledge and the blind. There is maybe a 1 inch gap. I am about 12 feet away and I have a hard enough time keeping my hand steady and the laser in the gap. I find it hard to believe that anyone could hit a moving target from a thousand feet or more away. Just seems a little far fetched. My 2 cents.


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25300 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3653 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 17):
I find it hard to believe that anyone could hit a moving target from a thousand feet or more away. Just seems a little far fetched.

Unfortunately it's not. There have been over 70 reports so far this year in the Transport Canada daily occurrence summary of aircraft being targeted by lasers. Recently there seems to be almost one a day. Considering the relative volumes of air traffic, it must be many times that number in the U.S.

The following excerpts are all from this month:

(Sept. 23) Air Canada Jazz de Havilland DHC-8 aircraft (operating as flight JZA7798) was on a scheduled IFR flight from Sault Ste. Marie (CYAM) to Toronto (CYYZ). JZA7798 reported being struck by a green laser inbound to CYYZ at 3000 feet. Aircraft was located at approximately 43 51N / 79 26W. Police advised.

(Sept. 21) Approaching Montréal/Trudeau (CYUL), over the southern point of Île des Soeurs, the crew of TSC753, Airbus A310 operated by Air Transat, IFR from Punta Cana, Dominican Republic (MDPC), reported a green laser aimed at the cockpit.

(Sept. 20) Westjet Boeing 737-700 (operating as flight WJA320) had departed on a scheduled IFR flight from Toronto (CYYZ) to Halifax (CYHZ). At 0009z WJA320 reported a laser strike shortly after departure off Runway 06L at Toronto. Laser was pointed at the aircraft for approximately 4 miles and appeared to come from a location of 434558N 0792426W a baseball field. Peel Regional Police advised.

(Sept. 13) SKW 6751, Skywest Airlines CRJ 200, was on descent into Winnipeg when the crew reported a bright green laser light being pointed at the aircraft in the vicinity of the Steinbach North airport.

(Sept. 11) The crew of ACA426, Airbus A321 operated by Air Canada, IFR from Toronto (CYYZ) to Montréal/Trudeau (CYUL), reported being targeted by a green laser near position 4533N / 07344W.

(Sept. 8) Canadian Helicopters Ltd. Sikorsky S-76 helicopter (operating as flight CDN791) was on an IFR flight to the Ottawa Civic Hospital helipad (CPP7). The flight crew reported a laser hit around the Ottawa VOR (YOW).
UPDATE Supplemental information received from Canadian Helicopters Ltd. [2009/09/09]: The operator voluntarily provided additional information on this occurrence. While en-route from Pembroke to Ottawa Civic Hospital with a patient and escort, and approximately 10NM from the Ottawa Civic Hospital, at an altitude of 2,000 feet ASL, the cockpit was hit with a green laser. While looking out of the co-pilot's side of the front window, a strong green light was observed coming from an observation area along the top of the Gatineau Hills. The green light struck the helicopter two or three times. It was only visible for about 20 to 30 seconds. The pilot was able to shield his eyes from the light by using the centre post of the windshield as protection. The co-pilot first noticed the light and was struck by the beam. The co-pilot is suffering some after effects from the laser strike and is seeking further medical help.

(Sept. 7) Air Canada Jazz Flight JZA422 (C-GHTA), a Dehavilland DH8-301, IFR Vancouver to Kelowna, reported 2 green lasers directed towards it when approximately 12 miles on final for Runway 16. The RCMP were informed.

(Sept. 6) Approaching Montréal/Trudeau (CYUL), the crew of ACA426, Airbus A319 operated by Air Canada, IFR from Toronto (CYYZ), reported a green laser aimed at the aircraft.

(Sept 4) Air Georgian Ltd. Beech 1900D (operating as flight GGN7361) was concluding an IFR flight from Toronto (CYYZ) to Sarnia (CYZR). The flight crew reported that a laser light was directed at the aircraft while it was on approach to the airport. The laser strike occurred in the vicinity of 42º59'33"N 082º08'25"W. Police were advised.

(Sept. 2) Air Canada Embraer ERJ-190-100-IGW aircraft (operating as flight ACA512) was nearing the conclusion of a scheduled IFR flight from Chicago (KORD) to Toronto (CYYZ). The flight crew reported that a green laser was directed at the aircraft while it was on the downwind leg of the approach to runway 24R. The laser appeared to come from an area near the CN Tower.

(Sept. 1) Keewatin Air Beech King Air B200 reported a bright green laser light aimed at the aircraft when approximately 10NM NE of Winnipeg.


[Edited 2009-09-23 18:44:25]

User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4561 posts, RR: 18
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3610 times:

I'm still saying its nonsense. Even if you can direct a laser towards an aircraft you aren't going to do anything unless you manage the one in a million shot of even briefly making contact with a pilot. The odds have to be even more remote of a head shot. And even more remote of making contact with the eyes. And if you manage to do that you are talking for only a split second which isn't even enough to cause damage. You certainly aren't going to be able to keep it on the target. Draw up a target the size of a human head. Draw eyes on it. Stand 50 feet back and see how hard it is to make contact with the target. See how hard it is to hit an eye. And how hard it is to try and keep the laser around the eye. Move it 100 feet away and have someone slowly moving the target. Good luck. Try 500 feet away. Forget it. If your friend is moving with the target you'll need some luck to hit your friend or the head target.

The odds of someone managing to blind a pilot with a laser are astronomical. A low and slow moving target like perhaps a helicopter could be at risk. But thats about it. The rest are too high and too fast moving. It is still pretty stupid. Some people need to get a life but I don't think it is a threat to aviation like some might believe.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineSovietjet From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2003, 2607 posts, RR: 16
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3576 times:
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If you really want to point a laser at an aircraft why aim at the cockpit? Aim at the tail or wings so that you can't do any harm. You can aim at 99% of the plane and nobody would even notice. I just dont' see why you have to aim at the cockpit...

Quoting Indy (Reply 19):
I'm still saying its nonsense. Even if you can direct a laser towards an aircraft you aren't going to do anything unless you manage the one in a million shot of even briefly making contact with a pilot. The odds have to be even more remote of a head shot. And even more remote of making contact with the eyes. And if you manage to do that you are talking for only a split second which isn't even enough to cause damage. You certainly aren't going to be able to keep it on the target. Draw up a target the size of a human head. Draw eyes on it. Stand 50 feet back and see how hard it is to make contact with the target. See how hard it is to hit an eye. And how hard it is to try and keep the laser around the eye. Move it 100 feet away and have someone slowly moving the target. Good luck. Try 500 feet away. Forget it. If your friend is moving with the target you'll need some luck to hit your friend or the head target.

What I was thinking exactly.....


User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5589 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3496 times:

This is probably the best info I have found so far:
http://www.flightsafety.org/hf/hf_nov-dec01.pdf

Pretty thorough and fair article on the effects of lasers on pilots. Mainly lasers of a certain power are the ones to worry about and the damage is usually temporary but can be disorienting for several minutes after the exposure.:

An industry site that lists the issues with lasers and eye exposure:
http://www.rp-photonics.com/laser_safety.html

The Army's opinion of laser effects on the eyes:
http://chppm-www.apgea.army.mil/documents/FACT/65-023-0503.pdf

Video of a laser aimed at a police helicopter:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bd3_1245182005&c=1

A couple of sites with laser-philes talking about the lasers they like etc.:
http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?p=465444
http://community.discovery.com/eve/f.../tpc/f/9401967776/m/6061916009/p/2

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineKalvado From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3402 times:



Quoting Tugger (Reply 21):
Mainly lasers of a certain power are the ones to worry about and the damage is usually temporary but can be disorienting for several minutes after the exposure.:

Sounds like effect of someone coming out of a sharp turn with headlights at high beam in the dark.. Possible outcome is somewhat similar as well.


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