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AC Considering YYC-Asia Direct  
User currently offlineC172Akula From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 1010 posts, RR: 4
Posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8906 times:

This rumour started floating around quite a few months ago, today we got the following article in the Calgary Herald:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/to...ry+Asia+flights/2022034/story.html

If I recall correctly the rumour was that AC was going to announce a flight in September '09, this is a step in the right direction for YYC getting that flight eventually.

What kind of equipment would AC operate on a potential route? 763, A333, 77L?

[Edited 2009-09-23 06:47:12]

[Edited 2009-09-23 06:59:36]

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBakersdozen From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8769 times:

Oh the business community will support it if the times and freq are good enough. 5 weekly continuing with the down days of Tues and Wed would probably be the best kind of schedule.

Interesting, I'd gather there will be an Asia airline coming into it first though. Hopefully a *A one.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15812 posts, RR: 27
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8749 times:

I don't want to rain on YYC's parade, but the article only uses the word "direct" and not "nonstop." It could be a mistake by the writer, but then again the Air Canada people also said "direct."


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1666 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8758 times:

Canada gained the right to add another Japan route as of 2010. It could also do China - again, the rights are there.

User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1666 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8761 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):


I don't want to rain on YYC's parade, but the article only uses the word "direct" and not "nonstop." It could be a mistake by the writer, but then again the Air Canada people also said "dir

It would be nonstop. Trust me.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7759 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8735 times:

What destination I wonder?


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineNaritaflyer From Japan, joined Apr 2006, 549 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8682 times:

Only possible destination is Tokyo. And there would not be much business traffic. It would be primarily leisure tours to visit Banff. I highly doubt it would be 5 weekly flights. There may be two non-stops a week and the rest, if there are any, would likely be one-stop via YVR.

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7759 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8611 times:

I think flights from Canada preform better to China than to Japan. I know its the opposite in the US.


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1402 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8588 times:



Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 6):
Only possible destination is Tokyo. And there would not be much business traffic. It would be primarily leisure tours to visit Banff. I highly doubt it would be 5 weekly flights. There may be two non-stops a week and the rest, if there are any, would likely be one-stop via YVR.

Years ago CP used to fly YYC-NRT with a DC10 a couple of times a week. I suspect AC still has the performance records from that route and has been mulling restarting the service. I don't think it would start with anything more than two or three flights a week,that's if it ever happened. I just don't see any other destination in Asia that could sustain the service.


User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2642 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8422 times:



Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 6):
Only possible destination is Tokyo

 checkmark 

Quoting C172Akula (Thread starter):
What kind of equipment would AC operate on a potential route? 763, A333, 77L?

B763

Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 6):
I highly doubt it would be 5 weekly flights

 checkmark 

YYC cannot sustain daily non-stop to Asia, including NRT. It will be less than 5x weekly. We are probably looking at 2 to 3 weekly flights with B763. The B77L is too much metal and the B763 has more than enough legs to operate the route, considering AC used to operate YYZ-NRT non-stop with a B763 back in 2005.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4830 posts, RR: 44
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8396 times:



Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 9):

YYC cannot sustain daily non-stop to Asia, including NRT. It will be less than 5x weekly. We are probably looking at 2 to 3 weekly flights with B763. The B77L is too much metal and the B763 has more than enough legs to operate the route, considering AC used to operate YYZ-NRT non-stop with a B763 back in 2005.

I agree...best is to have a 4 weekly B 763ER fly YYC-NRT in the summer and 3 times weekly in the winter.

How are YYZ-NRT flights performing these days?


User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1666 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8378 times:



Quoting Behramjee (Reply 10):


How are YYZ-NRT flights performing these days?

I guess things are good enough that nonstops are being continued this winter - unlike last winter.


User currently offlineYegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1732 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8212 times:

I think this is nothing but a pep talk in front of the Super Elite customers....

YVR should get the extra frequncies as it is better suited for connections from across Western Canada and The US. Why wouldn't AC explore other destinations out of YVR instead. Maybe bring back Nagoya, Osaka, etc.... before offering YYC a route to NRT.

I was just going through old CP schedules and was remebering the days when CP flew to MNL, KUL, BKK and TPE.

I don't know what kinds of yelds Asia is generating right now, but AC seems to be interested in low yield destinations anyways (BCN, ATH) for example


User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2642 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8198 times:



Quoting Yegbey01 (Reply 12):
AC seems to be interested in low yield destinations anyways (BCN, ATH) for example

Even though it seems so, i find it hard to believe that AC is focusing solely on low yield destinations. ATH was a direct reaction to OA terminating YUL and YYZ, and as for BCN, i believe that it is a move by AC to start to compete against TS, which dominates the Spain-Canada market right now. They tried YYZ-MAD, it failed, and so now they are trying a different approach, with the all economy B763s to BCN. I think it will work.

Quoting Yegbey01 (Reply 12):
I think this is nothing but a pep talk in front of the Super Elite customers....

I think they did these meetings in YYC to kind of get a feel of the market, to see if the business Elite will support the 3 or 4 weekly service they intend to offer. They probably wont like it, and AC will probably not launch, that is the scenario that is playing in my head. But who knows.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8154 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
I don't want to rain on YYC's parade, but the article only uses the word "direct" and not "nonstop." It could be a mistake by the writer, but then again the Air Canada people also said "direct."



Quoting Sebring (Reply 4):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):


I don't want to rain on YYC's parade, but the article only uses the word "direct" and not "nonstop." It could be a mistake by the writer, but then again the Air Canada people also said "dir

It would be nonstop.

Or it could be "direct", using the same aircraft YYC-YVR-Asia, as they currently do on YYZ-YUL-GVA, and will be doing next summer on their new seasonal routes YYZ-YUL-BCN and YYZ-YUL-ATH. While not as attractive as nonstop, it's still better than a connection which is all any of their competitors could offer, and also gives the flights higher display priority in systems. There likely wouldn't be enough O&D YYC-Asia traffic to justify enough frequency on a nonstop to make it attractive to business travellers. I expect those reasons are why they're combining YYZ and YUL on the same flights to GVA/BCN/ATH.

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 8):
Years ago CP used to fly YYC-NRT with a DC10 a couple of times a week.

Wasn't it something like once a week from YYC and once a week from YEG? Those flights originated YYZ and were very unprofitable with little YYC/YEG traffic, and what there was was virtually all low-yield Japanese tour groups which is very seasonal. The Alberta stops didn't last long.


User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2642 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8141 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
and will be doing next summer on their new seasonal routes YYZ-YUL-BCN and YYZ-YUL-ATH

Both BCN and ATH will be non-stop from Both YYZ and YUL. 3 flights a week to each city from both YYZ and YUL, Non-stop.

You are mixing up BCN and ATH with BRU. Brussels will be YYZ-YUL-BRU-YUL-YYZ, just like the GVA operations.

http://micro.newswire.ca/release.cgi...8288335&view=13213-0&Start=0&htm=0

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2009-09-23 12:51:55]


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8025 times:



Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 13):
They tried YYZ-MAD, it failed,

Why do you say MAD failed? Obviously AC disagrees since they've been operating YYZ-MAD daily nonstop during the summer and have been doing so for two years. It ends as planned in mid-October for the winter but is back next summer according to their schedules.

Quoting Yegbey01 (Reply 12):
I was just going through old CP schedules and was remebering the days when CP flew to MNL, KUL, BKK and TPE.

CP never served KUL. MH operated YVR-KUL (with a stop somewhere, forget where, possibly TPE). I think CP codeshared on MH for a while. MH dropped YVR in 1999.

Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 13):
They tried YYZ-MAD, it failed,



Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 15):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
and will be doing next summer on their new seasonal routes YYZ-YUL-BCN and YYZ-YUL-ATH

Both BCN and ATH will be non-stop from Both YYZ and YUL. 3 flights a week to each city from both YYZ and YUL, Non-stop.

You are mixing up BCN and ATH with BRU. Brussels will be YYZ-YUL-BRU-YUL-YYZ, just like the GVA operations.

Thanks for the correction. I knew there was a route other than GVA that was operating with one aircraft from YYZ and YUL.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4125 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7914 times:



Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 9):
YYC cannot sustain daily non-stop to Asia, including NRT. It will be less than 5x weekly. We are probably looking at 2 to 3 weekly flights with B763. The B77L is too much metal and the B763 has more than enough legs to operate the route

If DL is was willing to give SLC-NRT the all-college try this past year and will attempt to bring it back next May, why not AC YYC-NRT? Just people up in YEG will be asking for equal treatment!  stirthepot 



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineAstral From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days ago) and read 7833 times:

The market study that our company had done in 2004 is still with me. Even though it was brief, but was important for us at that time with our plan to service Asia (China was the target market).
YYC best non-stop Asia destination is Tokyo, followed by Seoul, then Osaka. Market composition would be 55% tour, then student, and finally VFF, while business travel ranked rather low on the percentage scale.
YYC can support B767-200 size load at 5 times per week between May and October to Japan and Korea. Winter at best would be 3 times per week. Consultant cautioned low-yield problem, weather related IROPS cost in winter. Suggestion was - Best with seasonal service only. Year-round schedule must be supported with 5th Freedom, such as YYC-NRT-SEL, or YYC-NRT-PEK.


User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2642 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days ago) and read 7818 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
Why do you say MAD failed? Obviously AC disagrees since they've been operating YYZ-MAD daily nonstop during the summer and have been doing so for two years. It ends as planned in mid-October for the winter but is back next summer according to their schedules

I was under the impression that YYZ-MAD was discontinued...Sorry, my bad !

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2642 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7666 times:



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 17):
If DL is was willing to give SLC-NRT the all-college try this past year and will attempt to bring it back next May, why not AC YYC-NRT?

Because DL is notorious for starting routes and then terminating them. AC takes a much more conservative approach and takes the time to fully analyze the market before starting a route.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineDIESEL1337 From Canada, joined Dec 2008, 75 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7565 times:

I was wishing to see a new route to Tokyo as well.
My dream routes are to see them bring Singapore and Hong Kong to the market in Calgary.


User currently offlineMarcoPoloWorld From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7385 times:

Calgary would have one or more direct flights to the orient today if the protectionist government of Canada hadn't severely limited transpacific frequencies to/from Canada by overseas carriers.

And this isn't just hurting "semi-secondary" destinations such as Calgary, but it also hurts gateways like Vancouver (hence the SQ pullout when they couldn't get permitted to operate meaningful frequencies). And who knows what Canadian destinations Emirates Airline would fly to, if only they were allowed to enter and try out the market to a meaningful extent.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7320 times:



Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 22):
Calgary would have one or more direct flights to the orient today if the protectionist government of Canada hadn't severely limited transpacific frequencies to/from Canada by overseas carriers.

Canada recently signed an Open Skies agreement with South Korea so Canadian and Korean carriers can now fly anywhere they want in either country.

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 22):
And this isn't just hurting "semi-secondary" destinations such as Calgary, but it also hurts gateways like Vancouver (hence the SQ pullout when they couldn't get permitted to operate meaningful frequencies).

The problem with SQ is that they operated via ICN and most of their YVR passengers were 5th freedom passengers to/from ICN, since the Canada-SIN O&D market is very small. It's very common for countries to give primary consideration to the volume of 3rd/4th freedom traffic between the countries at each end of the route when negotiating traffic rights. Fifth freedom traffic, where those rights exist, is intended to be secondary, not the primary source of passengers and revenue on a route.


User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2642 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7203 times:



Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 22):
Calgary would have one or more direct flights to the orient today if the protectionist government of Canada hadn't severely limited transpacific frequencies to/from Canada by overseas carriers.

I highly doubt that. As i said, YYC doesn't have the market to justify a daily flight to Asia. Government restrictions has nothing to do with it. Period. Routing the small demand for Asia through YVR is the obvious and wise choice here.

We will probably see a 3 weekly B763 on a YYC-NRT run, if that. Nothing else.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
25 YULWinterSkies : Then, it would not be like the recent YYZ-GVA.
26 MarcoPoloWorld : We won't know until your protectionist government has the balls to allow free competition on those markets, now will we? Period.
27 MarcoPoloWorld : Really? Well, that "only" leaves the rest of the Asian carriers not to be allowed to fly there, doesn't it? And what about carriers such as Emirates?
28 Brilondon : Then there will definatley not be any AC flights operating from YYC.
29 Naritaflyer : Other than Seoul where else is there to fly to from Canada? Canada always reaches open skies agreements with countries once such an agreement is unec
30 LongHauler : So could Singapore Airlines, if they so desired. But .. only from Singapore. Not from Korea, Japan, Belgium, The Netherlands ...etc etc etc. In fact,
31 Yegbey01 : Can SQ operate SIN-YVR-JFK or some major city in the US and have rights to carry pax ex YVR to that city in the US (ala CX: HKG-YVR-JFK, PAL: MNL-YVR
32 Viscount724 : Canada also recently reached a very liberal air services agreement with Turkey, most of which is in Asia. People forget that Canada has had an open s
33 Hawaiian763 : I would love to see a direct to Asia route from YYC, it has been long overdue. I believe that there is the business to support it, I don't know if the
34 Thenoflyzone : If YYC-NRT comes to be, they will most likely start with a B763, to see how the flights are doing, and then commit an A333 or B77L on the run. I woul
35 LongHauler : Airlines know exactly how many people want to fly between A and B. It isn't hard, especially with alliances, code sharing and fare mixing. If there w
36 MarcoPoloWorld : And the circumstances that you point out only serve to prove the detriments of protectionism in a very clear way as it relates to the Calgary market.
37 9252fly : Perhaps as in the example the market is significantly larger,hence more competitive. You can find numerous examples within the USA of fares with hidd
38 MarcoPoloWorld : Again, not trying to offend anyone. Just hoping that the writing is on the wall. Calgary is hardly a "hidden city".
39 LongHauler : I don't know. How do Americans feel about United Airlines selling tickets IAD-NRT for USD 1012.20, when a Canadian can buy a ticket on United YYZ-IAD
40 Viscount724 : That applies worldwide. If AC can generate some traffic from the U.S. to their international destinations via Canada by offering low fares, that help
41 Yegbey01 : ^^^ My initial commecnt about the price of a ticket from LAX to LHR through YYC on AC was only to show that competition will make prices cheaper.....A
42 Viscount724 : AC has no shortage of competition in any of its international markets if you're willing to make a connection. There's a limit in how much of a fare p
43 DavidYYC : And a LOT has changed here in the last 5 years. For those of you who have never been to YYC, the growth has been truly astounding. My point is that i
44 Naritaflyer : It doesn't matter how much YYC has changed in 5 years because the desirability of the destinations remains Banff and I doubt Banff has changed at all
45 Whiteguy : Yes, completely pointless to put a brand new B77W on a flight that makes more money than all the YYZ-LHR flights combined. AC should do all their rou
46 Yegbey01 : What's your source of info? I'm sure the YYC-LR run is a money maker hence BA offers the service as well....But how do you know that taht single flig
47 Whiteguy : AC Lead training course in the spring of '07. I think the numbers were based on a single month. March, I think as I took the course in Apr. 1 flight
48 Flyyul : This is completely false - I dont care where you got your information from. Perhaps you should come and see for yourself next time your around HQ
49 Bakersdozen : You're thinking one sided here in terms of Japan-Canada traffic. The populace in YYC has grown a lot in the past 5 years - in terms of people as well
50 Whiteguy : Guess we shouldn't anything believe anything they tell us from the top! Maybe not be true but it was back then.
51 Bakersdozen : I've also heard that it is one of their most profitable routes in terms of price of seats
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