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TAP Pilots Strike  
User currently offlineDirkou From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 571 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 11 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2719 times:

Just searched Airliners.net forums and was amazed (correct me if I'm wrong) not to see a single mention to the scandal that's going on in Portugal: TAP pilots went on strike today and will be tomorrow too. They want a raise in their salary!!!

They are the most well paid pilots in Portugal, one the best well paid jobs in Portugal. The company posted a 280 EUR million loss last year, is preparing to pay a 1xx million EUR loss this year and has 2500 thousand million EUR in debts.

Is this the start of the end for the Portuguese "flag carrier"?

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2890 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2643 times:



Quoting Dirkou (Thread starter):
was amazed (correct me if I'm wrong) not to see a single mention to the scandal that's going on in Portugal

I think it was announced in the TAP thread some time ago.

Quoting Dirkou (Thread starter):
Is this the start of the end for the Portuguese "flag carrier"?

No, but it is the end of the election campaign...



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineDirkou From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 571 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2586 times:

>No, but it is the end of the election campaign...

I'm not sure about this one. The company has a 2500 million debt and generates huge losses year after year. The Portuguese government cannot throw money into it so...


User currently offlineRICARDOFG From Spain, joined Feb 2005, 677 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2528 times:



Quoting Dirkou (Thread starter):
Is this the start of the end for the Portuguese "flag carrier"?

wouldn't you wish..............


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8287 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2460 times:



Quoting Dirkou (Reply 2):
I'm not sure about this one. The company has a 2500 million debt and generates huge losses year after year. The Portuguese government cannot throw money into it so...

What part of "it's a government owned company" don't you understand? As we've seen with AZ, EU regulation is more like guidelines  Smile


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11429 posts, RR: 58
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2406 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting Dirkou (Thread starter):
Just searched Airliners.net forums and was amazed (correct me if I'm wrong) not to see a single mention to the scandal that's going on in Portugal: TAP pilots went on strike today and will be tomorrow too. They want a raise in their salary!!!

I just got informed that TP rent a 744 from Corsair to fly LIS-GIG yesterday. I believe CNF got a A310. So this is a very expensive move!



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineOffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 872 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 2 days ago) and read 2379 times:

So they are asking for another €1026 a month saying they are the 5th worth paid after Easyjet, Ryanair, Orbest and Sata, and that CEO Fernando Pinto earns 667 times the minimum wage of €450 / month, or over €300k a year. The pilots meanwhile only earn 19 times the minimum wage or around €102k a year. I'm sure all of this will go down well with both TAP pax and Portuguese taxpayers.


To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlineDirkou From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 571 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2290 times:



Quoting RICARDOFG (Reply 3):
Quoting Dirkou (Thread starter):
Is this the start of the end for the Portuguese "flag carrier"?

wouldn't you wish..............

I openly say I would wish so, despite the huge number of families affected.
Portugal cannot continue to have this disaster of a company in public hands.
Privatize it now.


User currently offlineDirkou From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 571 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2275 times:

For those interested a table of how much pilots receive at TAP is below:
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/618/pntq.jpg

These guys are tremendously well paid comparing to the rest of the Portuguese population (don't start comparing them with Lufthansa, Air France, etc - Portugal is a much poorer a cheaper country to live in with a minimum wage 3 to 4 times less than one of those countries).

I believe that all they got with this strike was a total loss of credibility. It seems they live in a different world.


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8287 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2229 times:

Again, I don't agree with the strike, I don't support the pilots in any way shape of form. I think they get paid competitive wages. This is not the time to be asking for a raise when they should be lucky to have jobs. I think it is an absurd decision and what many people here don't get is that it's not just TP's pilots that are striking or threatening to strike. this is a common event around election time in Portugal where 60 % of the work force are public workers, including TP's pilots.

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 8):
These guys are tremendously well paid comparing to the rest of the Portuguese population (don't start comparing them with Lufthansa, Air France, etc - Portugal is a much poorer a cheaper country to live in with a minimum wage 3 to 4 times less than one of those countries).

Portugal's teachers are some of the best paid teachers in all of Europe and yet Portugal has the worst educational system in all of Europe. Now that's an insult to tax payers.
Yes it is fair to compare it with AF,LH, etc, because like AF, LH, etc, TAP is a global company that functions in a global marketplace so therefore it's workforce needs to be paid a competitive salary. The local cost of living and minimum wage is completely irrelevant. It's not the pilots or the CEO that make too much money. It's everybody else that make too little money, because Portugal has the least productive, least educated, and least qualified population in all of Europe. In this day and age it is still very common to find grown adults who can't read or write their own name. That is why the "local" wages are so low.

The thing is, what the pilots and others like them don't see is that they're shooting themselves in the foot (again. least educated in Europe). These absurd strikes just give the current administration the needed scapegoat to blame for the huge losses this year. Last year it was fuel costs. This year it will be the strikes. The government will buy into it, the pilots will not receive a wage increase and TP will have to cut flights to save costs and that will bite into the pilot's total earning's.

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 8):
I believe that all they got with this strike was a total loss of credibility. It seems they live in a different world.

They do live in a different World. The world of government employees. The good thing is they're too few and their Union has little to no leverage with the government so they're not getting their raise, which I hope it should teach them a lesson. But I'm afraid it will be business as usual once this blows over.


User currently offlineDirkou From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 571 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2153 times:

Airbazar, I fully agree with what you wrote. I would sign below.  Smile

Let's hope that the government that comes out of this election will finally do something.
I just don't understand how they still have money for daily operations, with a 2500 million EUR debt. I would love to know more about the financial operations behind to keep this company flying.


User currently offlineGayrugbyman From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 1737 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2086 times:

What's the situaation like today at LIS? Have any flights departed for London this morning?

User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2027 times:



Quoting Offloaded (Reply 6):
So they are asking for another €1026 a month saying they are the 5th worth paid after Easyjet, Ryanair, Orbest and Sata, and that CEO Fernando Pinto earns 667 times the minimum wage of €450 / month, or over €300k a year. The pilots meanwhile only earn 19 times the minimum wage or around €102k a year. I'm sure all of this will go down well with both TAP pax and Portuguese taxpayers.

These sorts of salaries compared to the normal avarage wage look like extortion. It is impossible to have any sympathy with them.

Maybe this strike will focus attention on them. Let's hope the check-in staff and mx guys also get these rather grand salaries.


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8287 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2003 times:



Quoting Dirkou (Reply 10):
Airbazar, I fully agree with what you wrote. I would sign below.

Oh no, the sky is falling!  Smile

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 10):
I just don't understand how they still have money for daily operations, with a 2500 million EUR debt. I would love to know more about the financial operations behind to keep this company flying.

You may have missed it but TAP mortgaged all their earnings from ticket sales for the next 10 years, or something like that. That's why they have cash flow. I can't find a link now but this was announced about 6 months ago or so.

Quoting Babybus (Reply 12):
These sorts of salaries compared to the normal avarage wage look like extortion. It is impossible to have any sympathy with them.

True and true but how would you hire an experienced pilot for less? Although I don't know any TAP pilots, I happen to know portuguese pilots flying for other foreign carriers. Why? Because they can. In order to attract and retain their pilots, as a global company operating in a global industry, TAP has to offer wages that are comparable to other carriers. How much is minimum wage in Dubai, or Saudi Arabia, or Angola, or Brazil? I bet their pilots make just as much as TAP's pilots, for the same exact reason.
As I said above, the root of the problem is not the pilots' wages but the Government which allows this type of free for all anarchy to go on. This strike should have never been allowed to take place in the first place. Of all the election time strikes I've seen at TAP, this one takes first prize for absurdity.


User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2890 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 1 day ago) and read 1963 times:



Quoting Gayrugbyman (Reply 11):
What's the situaation like today at LIS? Have any flights departed for London this morning?

Flights seem mostly back to normal from what I can tell.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 13):
As I said above, the root of the problem is not the pilots' wages but the Government which allows this type of free for all anarchy to go on. This strike should have never been allowed to take place in the first place. Of all the election time strikes I've seen at TAP, this one takes first prize for absurdity.

Completely agree.



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineDirkou From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 571 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 1 day ago) and read 1953 times:

>True and true but how would you hire an experienced pilot for less?

You can easily. Just close TAP, open another company with a different name the next day, offer 1/2 wages and you will see all of them coming in. They have no option as 99% wouldn't want to fly abroad. Portuguese Charter carriers pay 40 to 60% of that and are full of experienced pilots.


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8287 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 3 hours ago) and read 1820 times:



Quoting Dirkou (Reply 15):
You can easily. Just close TAP, open another company with a different name the next day, offer 1/2 wages and you will see all of them coming in. They have no option as 99% wouldn't want to fly abroad. Portuguese Charter carriers pay 40 to 60% of that and are full of experienced pilots.

That would not happen because most of them qualify for a guaranteed government pension of something like 80-90% their current salary and some even more if you include their Air Force pension. There's no reason for most of TP's pilots to accept a wage that's any lower than that. And no foreign pilot would accept a job at TP for equaly low wages. The generous pensions that Portuguese works have is one reason why productivity is so low and strikes so common. Because the majority of workers have little or nothing to lose if their companies go under. It simply means early retirement.


User currently offlineJonjonnl From UK - England, joined Dec 2007, 135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 1 hour ago) and read 1790 times:



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 9):
Yes it is fair to compare it with AF,LH, etc, because like AF, LH, etc, TAP is a global company that functions in a global marketplace so therefore it's workforce needs to be paid a competitive salary. The local cost of living and minimum wage is completely irrelevant. It's not the pilots or the CEO that make too much money. It's everybody else that make too little money, because Portugal has the least productive, least educated, and least qualified population in all of Europe. In this day and age it is still very common to find grown adults who can't read or write their own name. That is why the "local" wages are so low.

It's not fair at all. The local salaries are relevant in the sense that this is a state owned company and their salaries are hence paid by tax payers.
It is unacceptable that TAP pilots demand a 9% raise. It equates to ~€600,– which is more than what most Portuguese earn every month.



joão in ncl
User currently offlineDirkou From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 571 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1743 times:

Airbazar, I don't understand this one:
"That would not happen because most of them qualify for a guaranteed government pension of something like 80-90% their current salary and some even more if you include their Air Force pension."

So TAP goes under they are guaranteed a pension automatically?

Regarding this one:
"And no foreign pilot would accept a job at TP for equaly low wages. "

There are hundreds of pending CVs at White, euroAtlantic, HiFly for pilots. I would assure you that it would be very easy to find pilots that wanted to work for 1/2 of what TAP currently pays.


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8287 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1730 times:



Quoting Dirkou (Reply 18):
So TAP goes under they are guaranteed a pension automatically?

Yes. That is a rule that applies to everyone that works or has ever worked in Portugal, not just TP employees. Portugal has the most pro-labor laws in the whole World. One reason why, despite living in the US for decades I have no intention of ever giving up my portuguese citizenzip  Smile


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3983 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1722 times:



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 19):


Quoting Dirkou (Reply 18):
So TAP goes under they are guaranteed a pension automatically?

Yes. That is a rule that applies to everyone that works or has ever worked in Portugal, not just TP employees.

That is not correct. They are guaranteed a pension based on their contributions when they retire, which happens at 65 (can happen a few years earlier, but with penalties). Younger pilots wouldn't simply be able to retire like that. Sure, they would get a few years of a nice unemployment package, but that wouldn't last them for the rest of their lives (and would have an impact in the pension they would receive down the road, in any case). Oh, and you can only receive unemployment if you prove that you are at least pretending to look for another job.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
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