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Boeing Starting Work On 787 Wing Mod. (Flightg.)  
User currently offlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1783 posts, RR: 8
Posted (5 years 8 months 5 hours ago) and read 47424 times:


Jon Ostrower (Flightblogger) reports that Boeing announced that modification has begun on static test airframe (ZY997) and ZA001. Should take 30 working days to complete. Then, static testing to be done to check that static margins are where they should be, then complete wash, short "warm-up" gauntlet and taxi, and then... First flight!

Edit: Fligthblogger has written about it in his blog as well:

[Edited 2009-09-24 22:14:21]

401 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 21463 posts, RR: 60
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 4 hours ago) and read 47386 times:

I have a sinking feeling we haven't seen our last delay...


User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2339 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 2 hours ago) and read 47188 times:

He claims that the entire process of preparations, installation and restoration will take three months. Has Boeing initiated the preparations for Dreamliners 2-6 yet? If not, it seems safe to assume that none of those planes will take to the skies during 2009.

Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently onlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 5284 posts, RR: 40
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 2 hours ago) and read 47150 times:
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Quoting RedChili (Reply 2):
Has Boeing initiated the preparations for Dreamliners 2-6 yet? If not, it seems safe to assume that none of those planes will take to the skies during 2009.

That is highly likely and will probably put the first flight of the B748-F before that of the B787-8.

User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4487 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 2 hours ago) and read 47129 times:

I cross all fingers it holds now. World doesn't need more bad news currently.

User currently onlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 5284 posts, RR: 40
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 2 hours ago) and read 47121 times:
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Quoting Burkhard (Reply 4):
World doesn't need more bad news currently

Especially the new airliner development world which had it's share of bad news over the last years.  Sad

User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2339 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 1 hour ago) and read 46978 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 3):
That is highly likely and will probably put the first flight of the B748-F before that of the B787-8.

Just to clarify: I was talking about Dreamliners 2-6, not about Dreamliner 1. Installation has already started on Dreamliner 1, indicating that it's only some two months left until 1 can fly (assuming no more problems pop up).

Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently onlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 5284 posts, RR: 40
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 1 hour ago) and read 46970 times:
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Quoting RedChili (Reply 6):
Quoting EPA001 (Reply 3):
That is highly likely and will probably put the first flight of the B748-F before that of the B787-8.

Just to clarify: I was talking about Dreamliners 2-6, not about Dreamliner 1

Oops, I missed that part. So B787-8 might still fly before the B747-8F. Let's wait and see who will "win" this race between the two new Boeing models.  Wink

User currently offlineDynamicsguy From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 903 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 46725 times:

Quoting RedChili (Reply 2):
Has Boeing initiated the preparations for Dreamliners 2-6 yet?

Yes, though for all of them is has only been fairly recent. In the last few weeks they've all been towed to locations where the preparation work can commence. Presumably they're at least opening up access and removing the systems which will get in the way. The only test airframe not in a position where it can receive the fix is the static test airframe which I believe is still sitting out on the flightline.

User currently offline757GB From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 691 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 46589 times:

Does anyone know if modifications to Dreamliners 2-6 would have to wait until the fix is tested?
One would think so, but maybe engineers are confident enough about it...
Any insights are welcome.


God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2339 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 46551 times:

Quoting Dynamicsguy (Reply 8):
The only test airframe not in a position where it can receive the fix is the static test airframe which I believe is still sitting out on the flightline.

??? I thought the static frame was the first to receive the fix?

Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineBanjo76 From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 46480 times:

Quoting RedChili (Reply 6):
Just to clarify: I was talking about Dreamliners 2-6, not about Dreamliner 1. Installation has already started on Dreamliner 1, indicating that it's only some two months left until 1 can fly (assuming no more problems pop up).

I'm puzzled, they start to install the fix on Drealiner 1 before 100% knowing the fix fixes?
Is it an indication that they are almost certain that it'll work?

Quoting Dynamicsguy (Reply 8):
The only test airframe not in a position where it can receive the fix is the static test airframe which I believe is still sitting out on the flightline.

I'm more puzzled, isn't the stati test airframe the one supposed to receive the fix first?
Is it not in a position to receive it because it has already received it?
In any case it contradicts what stated in the article:

"The company's first 787 to fly, ZA001, along with the static test airframe, ZY997, are currently undergoing modification to return full static strength to the upper stringers of the structure that joins the wing to the side of body of the aircraft."


User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2339 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 46207 times:

Quoting Banjo76 (Reply 11):
I'm puzzled, they start to install the fix on Drealiner 1 before 100% knowing the fix fixes?

Time wise, it makes sense to do it that way. If they wait and the fix works, Dreamliner 1 would lose around two months (installation and restoration). On the other hand, if they install the fix and the fix doesn't work, it will anyway take several more months to develop a new fix, and they have plenty of time to remove the old fix during this time period.

Engineering wise, I have no idea if it makes sense.

Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineMD80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2790 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 46105 times:

...not being 100% certain a fix will work, and then un-fixing, then trying this new fix......
seems that they aren't entirely sure of much with this graphite bird.

I doubt you will see this plane fly until late 2010, or early 2011.

User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 8047 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 45987 times:

Quoting RedChili (Reply 12):
Engineering wise, I have no idea if it makes sense.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 12):
Time wise, it makes sense to do it that way

Think you got it right the first time. Let's assume that they have beaten the fix to death on the computers and all have finally agreed that it is the way to go - no dissenters in the camp or so far we have not heard one since this latest announcements - so it's now a case of installing in both a/c, re-doing the fatigue test on the test frame and if the results are as expected, ZA001 can commence her testing and finally take to the air.
One good thing that may come from it would be if two seperate teams are installing the fix at the same time, they may learn from each other, prove that the fix does not require much additional training from an engineering point of view or is simple enough that getting enough resources up to speed to make the mods is easy to accomplish.

At the least they should now release any 748 resources they were using so that a/c can get into the air without it's step sister "issues" getting in the way, she is dragging down the entire family  Smile

User currently offlineDynamicsguy From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 903 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 45895 times:

Quoting RedChili (Reply 10):
??? I thought the static frame was the first to receive the fix?

Argh, a case of thinking one thing and typing another. Of course I meant the fatigue test airframe.

User currently offlineManfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 45835 times:

When doing the taxi tests on ZA001, is it possible the wings created enough lift to further weaken the structure in question? If so, is ZA001 a "different" fix in that there is more structural damage? Do you think this was done on purpose to create a worst case scenario so the fix would be over-engineered hence lessening the chance of the the fix not working?

757: The last of the best
User currently offlineDynamicsguy From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 903 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 45828 times:

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 13):
...not being 100% certain a fix will work, and then un-fixing, then trying this new fix......
seems that they aren't entirely sure of much with this graphite bird.

We've already had this discussion over and over again. It is not (and never can be) 100% certain until the test is done, but the level of confidence is high. That is true of pretty much anything an engineer designs.

User currently offlineDynamicsguy From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 903 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 45772 times:

Quoting Manfredj (Reply 16):
When doing the taxi tests on ZA001, is it possible the wings created enough lift to further weaken the structure in question?

The damage occurred during a test which applied a load at least equivalent to 2.5 x the weight of the entire aircraft, presumably the maximum take off weight. According to Boeing the test went to at least 100% of this load. According to other reports it was to 120-130% of the load. This would be significantly greater than the lift generated during the taxi tests.

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12251 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 45536 times:

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 13):
I doubt you will see this plane fly until late 2010, or early 2011.

I, OTOH, think Boeing may just have it right this time and will make the first flight before the end of this year. Boeing knows the pressure they are under from the customers who have the B-787 on order.

The story said Boeing has scheduled 30 days to modify the wing roots on each airplane, with both ZA997 and ZA001 being worked on first. It sounds like the entire 3 months of the mod program is for all airplanes to be modified, with work beginning on ZA002-ZA006 being accomplished while ZA997 is being retested.

So, if we look at that schedule, ZA997 and ZA001 would be completed by the end of October, then maybe 2-3 weeks for cleaning and testing, which could put first flight in the second half of November, or 60 days from now. That schedule still allows ZA002 (RR engines) and ZA005 (GEnx engines) to fly by the end of December.

User currently offlineMD80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2790 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 45418 times:

Quoting Dynamicsguy (Reply 17):
It is not (and never can be) 100% certain until the test is done, but the level of confidence is high.

It needs to be 100% certain prior to being installed on the test bird. Now is not a good time to be "discovering" that things aren't going together as the engineers had previously thought. Perhaps we should have first gained more experience with carbon fibre in less safety critical commercial transport applications?

Let's not let the excitement of the dreamliner overrun our common sense. Remember when Boeing first introduced us to their hollow shell during the first rollout? What about the constant bumbling about since, discovering things that should have been caught in a laboratory 10 years prior to building the first actual airframe. In a daring bid to "one-up" the competition, Boeing has brought this bird out about 10 years too soon.

User currently onlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 5284 posts, RR: 40
Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 45362 times:
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Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 20):
Boeing has brought this bird out about 10 years too soon.

I disagree. It is too bad that the program got in the state where it is now, mainly due by bad management. But the timing is right, see the overwhelming sales successes. If they had not introduced this plane, they would have lost all the market share in this segment to Airbus. Right now they are very well represented in this market share by the B787. Now lets hope it will fly on time this time and lets hope it flies good.  

[Edited 2009-09-25 06:40:16]

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12251 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 45147 times:

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 20):
Remember when Boeing first introduced us to their hollow shell during the first rollout?

Remember when Airbus rolled out the empty shell A-380? My point is that is not uncommon.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 21):
Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 20):
Boeing has brought this bird out about 10 years too soon.

I disagree. It is too bad that the program got in the state where it is now, mainly due by bad management. But the timing is right, see the overwhelming sales successes. If they had not introduced this plane, they would have lost all the market share in this segment to Airbus. Right now they are very well represented in this market share by the B787. Now lets hope it will fly on time this time and lets hope it flies good.

Correct. Since 1999, Boeing has worked on several new airplanes, including the defuncted B-747-500X, B-747-600X, and Sonic Cruiser. They also built, certified, and sold the B-757-300, B-737-700C/C-40A, B-737-900, B-737-900ER, B-737-700ER, B-767-400ER, B-777-200LR, B-777-200LRF, B-777-300ER, B-747-400ER, B-747-400ERF, B-747-8F, and B-747-8I. That is just the commerical side of their company. The B-7E7 program didn't begin until 2004. Boeing, nor Airbus, have been sitting on their hands over the last 10 years on just one project.

User currently offlineAirbusA370 From Germany, joined Dec 2008, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 44432 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 22):
Remember when Airbus rolled out the empty shell A-380?

No, actually not. When did this happen?

User currently offlinePetera380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 365 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 44337 times:
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Quoting EPA001 (Reply 21):
Remember when Airbus rolled out the empty shell A-380? My point is that is not uncommon

The A380 wasn't an empty shell when it was rolled out, it was pretty much ready to go and the FF was on time.

25 EPA001 : @Petera380: That quote was not mine, somehow you got my name (as beside a fan of aviation also a fan of Airbus) to the quote KC135TopBoom made. Just
26 DocLightning : Somehow, I think that with a machine this complex, and a development team so incompetent, another problem will arise. Yes, and they've known that sin
27 Ikramerica : There is no such thing as 100% certainty in engineering, but the only ones worried that the fix won't work, that it's some sort of trial and error thi
28 AirbusA370 : Are you shure about the 2001 part?
29 Khobar : Operative word being might. Boeing's high level of confidence might not be a good indicator given Boeing's previous high levels of confidence. If Boe
30 DocLightning : I have a feeling we aren't the only ones...
31 EPA001 : Oops, my bad. I mean 2005 of course. How the h*ll I mistyped it so much is a total mystery to me. They are not really closely placed on the keyboard.
32 Lightsaber : Unlikely before the 748? Sure. But with the staffing up I'm seeing of 'flight test consultants' by Boeing, they're expecting to fly the 788 in 2009 a
33 AirbusA370 : Easy: The A380 had all systems installed at roll out The 787 had no systems installed at roll-out
34 Stitch : The A380-800's first flight was not on time, but the delay was only a few months (if that). Back to the 787, Boeing likely did some modeling (both phy
35 Zeke : It also had power on about 6 months before that, the systems were tested before rollout. First flight was about 3-4 months after rollout.
36 Ttailfan : I have never understood all the hype about the delays personally. I think that both Airbus with the A380 and Boeing with the 787 have both been put u
37 Manfredj : The only thing that will make me happier after first flight is when they realize the potential they have just unleashed into the market. Only AFTER t
38 Nwarooster : When engineers are instructed to design an aircraft to the minimum requirements to to obtain the maximum results, you are always asking for trouble. A
39 Flybyguy : I think this concurrent fix/testing scheme shows that Boeing leadership is beginning to panic, the fact that they can't run the static test first to
40 PlaneInsomniac : With all due respect, but a comment like this just shows that you have lost all interest in a fact-based discussion. Airbus rolled out a plane that w
41 Pygmalion : Once again the lack of design experience by the typical a-netter is showing. Both Boeing and Airbus do allowables testing for both static and fatigue
42 Post contains images JBirdAV8r : That's not how engineering works. Perfection and 100% confidence should always be the goal, but I can tell you that's never the way it ends up. Never
43 ER757 : Now there's an oxymoron for you if ever I saw one!!
44 EPA001 : The A380 was (and partially still is groundbreaking). But the problems were caused by a management screw-up with the CATIA IV & CATIA V versions of t
45 Dynamicsguy : When engineers do that they're doing their jobs. If you're designing to above those requirements then you end up with an unnecessarily heavy, sub-opt
46 DocLightning : I'm sorry, but by "Development team" I mean the entire program. And I stand by what I called them: incompetent. They rolled out an empty shell over t
47 Ttailfan : My comments were complimentary, not critical of neither Boeing nor Airbus. Management is at the mercy of its engineers, its sales people and its cust
48 Boeing4ever : Until you've held an engineering degree, you have some gall calling them incompetant. They performed the static tests, found out that the wingbox was
49 DocLightning : Fine. I've got gall. They promised a flying plane 2.5 years ago. Where is it? Sorry, you can't win this argument because the raw fact is that they ar
50 A380900 : There are issues I have been wondering about for a while but I never posted about them. This thread may be the right one... All the airplanes produced
51 474218 : The problem with both Airbus and Boeing is that they are "titans". It took a small team at Lockheed 179 day to design, build and fly the P-80. Yet th
52 Boeing4ever : Prove to me how the engineers who found the issue and are working on a fix (ie, did what is in their job descriptions) are incompetant. All I see fro
53 Boeing4ever : What people fail to realize is that this is a fully developed high tech industry now. You don't just slap some wings together and go fly it. The diff
54 Stitch : Since you can clearly see forty years into the future, mind telling me next week's winning Lotto numbers? Unfortunately, the people who can clearly s
55 JBirdAV8r : Well this one isn't ambiguous--you're way off base here. You don't have a firm grasp on economics. The 787 program will break even. It's also likely,
56 DocLightning : Boeing has been oddly quiet. Funny. When they have good things to say, they say them.
57 Nwarooster : That results in an aircraft that will have a shorter useful life expectancy. Aircraft built to minimums have far too LITTLE redundancy.
58 Pygmalion : Aircraft are designed for a specific service life with specific maintenance intervals and reliability requirements. Period. No less and not too much
59 4holer : The Force is strong with this one. OK, strike that. Though I will agree that Boeing was fortunate that the economy took much of the sting from the de
60 Tdscanuck : Some of them, yes. The fatigue frame is the one on the flightline. The static frame has been in the static test frame for quite some time, where it r
61 Simpilot459 : trying to get back on topic, and to go with what A380900 said, other than the fix, has anything else been changed on the test rigs? Is it legitimate t
62 Stitch : I am guessing they replaced the damaged section or did repair work to bring it back to specification so that the test is valid. I don't believe they
63 Cerecl : The post of the day, undoubtedly!
64 Tdscanuck : Not that Boeing has publically stated, as far as I can find. Yes. Static tests don't have hysteresis until you go past limit load. The part that did
65 Manfredj : Typical of the Empire. Last I checked, the Death Star was destroyed, the Rebellion prevailed, and all was well in the universe. Toulouse, however, se
66 I380North : There is contradication to that statement. The goal of engineering is never perfection and you can never attain 100% confidence for the simple reason
67 Olle : The development in all companies these days are the following; 1. management calculates ROI 2. The engineers get the understatemessage; Whatever you g
68 Stitch : Even billions and billions over budget, the 787 program is evidently still cheaper than what the Boeing Board of Directors authorized as the maximum a
69 Khobar : Huh? When they have good things to say, lately that's been code for "we're screwed". Like when they said, "the 787 will fly during the Paris Air Show
70 Dynamicsguy : Can you back up this claim? As an engineer, almost every time I give a realistic estimate of how many man hours a task will take it gets shot down by
71 Rheinbote : Not so evident to me, neither to financial professionals I've talked to. Boeing has (fully legal) ways to obfuscate the true cost of a program, and t
72 Boeing4ever : How do you know they didn't speak up for more development time? Please, massive elements on this website seem to think that with a keyboard, they can
73 PVG : Good one, I'll put that one in my book!
74 Khobar : You seem to think there's Boeing, and there's Airbus, and then there's A.net without considering that at least some of the folks posting on A.net wor
75 DocLightning : I dunno. I was always raised with "deliver it the right way on time."
76 Stitch : Boeing Chief Financial Officer James Bell?
77 Viscount724 : However the A380's jump in size over its predecessors was much less than the 747 which was 2.5 times as big as its 707 and DC-8 predecesors. It still
78 Boeing4ever : There are A.netters who work for both. But they aren't labeling whole companies "incompetant". Yeah, so are Boeing and Airbus. They just might have s
79 DocLightning : Then they shouldn't have promised it'd be in wide service by last year. Go ahead. Tell me how hard engineering an airplane is again. Bring it on.
80 StressedOut : Oh they spoke up many times; they were ignored for the most part. I don't know if you have worked for a large "engineering/manufacturing" corporation
81 StressedOut : You don't believe it? Or are you being facetious?
82 Astuteman : You mean the one that was just about ready to fly? I'd be astonished if there weren't just a few held breaths around Seattle and Chicago just at the
83 Boeing4ever : I should seriously hope you're being facetious. Just another armchair airframer yak, yak, yakkin' away. I'm not claiming that holding an engineering
84 Revelation : Yes, it seems to me that on the last few projects I've worked on, the end date was dictated from above, and the worker bees got to scramble to try to
85 KC135TopBoom : Better to ask that of the engineers of the B-787, A-380, and A-400M. Correct, in the cases of the B-787, A-380, and A-400M the marketing folks made p
86 Tarheelwings : You seem to be very proud of the fact that you somehow "knew" that Boeing would have the wing to body join issue, a problem that would prevent first
87 KC135TopBoom : Me too.
88 Post contains links and images Part147 : Hmm, well I know for sure the days of 'slide rule' calculations are over now, so maybe they didn't find it - but a computer model did!?  Google GIGO
89 DocLightning : Nope., I knew that BCA's incompetence was such that they would not have the aircraft flying by 2Q09. I had no idea why. I just knew that any project
90 JBirdAV8r : Again with the self-congratulations on your clairvoyant prediction coming true...one based solely on conjecture. You speak with such authority... Wel
91 Stitch : They might as well call them MBEs - Masters of Business Engineering. The core curricula seems to be how to manage projects (like an MBA) as opposed t
92 Post contains links DocLightning : The authority is, for the umpteenth time: *They promised EIS in 2008. It is now approaching 2010 and their aircraft hasn't even flown. *They promised
93 TISTPAA727 : Little late to the thread..... Seriously? The manufacturers set the time table so why shouldn't they be held accountable. If you scheduled deliver of
94 Pygmalion : just to stay on the same page... 777 Launch to 1st Delivery - 54 months. 787 Launch to orig 1st Delivery - 50 months. 787 Launch to new schedule deli
95 DocLightning : You demonstrate competence by delivering what you promised when you promised it. BTW, if I might nitpick, most experts think that their test flight s
96 Aircellist : Love it!
97 Ncfc99 : Do you think that if the issues had been managed properly, then the promises could have been meet? On the A380, it was a software issue which caused
98 JBirdAV8r : I am not pretending like "they" did "everything" right. Missing a target date by years on a commercial project (two+, not "over three," there's that
99 Revelation : And doing the math we get that the 787 is projected to overspend its 50 month time budget by 60%, not a near-miss by any standard. Maybe Doc is being
100 TISTPAA727 : I have a feeling we will see Boeing take a similar track to what Airbus has with the A350XWB - a long, drawn out schedule that allows for plenty of t
101 Boeing4ever : Had the model caught it, they wouldn't have the delay now, would they? At least now they have data to refine it. A lot of testing really is just vali
102 DocLightning : Which of the last aircraft that Boeing has introduced have been "run-of-the-mill"? Every one of Boeing's aircraft have been revolutionary, including
103 Post contains links Rheinwaldner : Absolute development time is affected by a lot of specific circumstances. It is not comparable. Thus each professional development project performs a
104 Zeke : Looks like Boeing is using this extra time to also address some of the weight reduction and wiring issues. Air Transport Intelligence news is reportin
105 Rheinwaldner : Cross talk is something that humanity masters since decades. This may be good news, but it is also embarassing, that such basic things become a topic
106 Nomadd22 : I'd like to know the details regarding the crosstalk problem. Shielding isn't use that much in most applications anymore since appropriate twisted pai
107 Rheinwaldner : This sounds all very reasonable. My point was, that chosing the right thing from the basket of options should be no big thing.
108 Post contains images Keesje : This was know before. still, replacing the wiring of a more electric aircraft. . the wiring is spread like a nerve system in the aircraft. flightblog
109 Tarheelwings : How does the above turn into: The frustrating thing to me about this type of post is that without having any more detail than the first quote about "
110 Stitch : I would expect ZA002 through ZA006 would have the wiring replaced when they are undergoing refurbishment from flight test frames to customer frames.
111 Nomadd22 : The wing to body join was something new with about a billion calculations that all affected each other. There was no substitution for the final test
112 Rheinwaldner : It is an issue that raised its head in "my" area (where I have an engineering degree). From there come the "bold" statements. If it would have been i
113 Tarheelwings : Fair enough, if the article in question gives you enough information to make that call, then I'll defer to your expertise. From my admittedly non-exp
114 BillReid : Here Here! You are so right! I bash the A380 bloggers because the relationship between the A380 and the B787 is NIL! Who cares about the A380 delays
115 DocLightning : 1) You're criticizing Boeing 2) You aren't an engineer so therefore your statement is unfair. Signed, -A.net Boeing cheerleaders The A380 is a much b
116 Rheinbote : Replace "787" with the aircraft program of your choice. Likewise, put engineers and managers in a bag and work it with a stick. You'll always hit the
117 EPA001 : I don't see that either. But all the posts of the respectable member here on A-net that you have just responded to, at least all the ones I have read
118 Nomadd22 : I don't know if it's the case with the two planes, but anybody who deals with electrical knows what a huge difference design philosophy can make. Som
119 Manfredj : And all this from a mention that the 787 comes from a long line of engineering feets...the 777 and the 757. What does a rookie in the engineering fie
120 Stitch : You are right. My remark was both off the cuff and off the mark. I'm an engineer, as well, so I should not be disparaging my peers, old and new. Some
121 Tdscanuck : Boeing wrote down ZA002 and ZA003 in their last quarterly...they're not going anywhere. Tom.
122 Ikramerica : It is in all modern aircraft. And there is less of it than other aircraft, not more. Well, of course it's in a few isolated places. That's why they d
123 Boeing4ever : Nice cheap shot. No one here thinks Boeing doesn't deserve criticism. It's your painting everyone with a broad brush and proclaiming you 'just knew t
124 Stitch : Why should that prevent them from being sold?
125 Ikramerica : If the 787 lasts 40 years instead of 20 for passenger service, and the engines are easily upgraded to more efficient engines in the future as Boeing
126 DocLightning : Go back and find the posts. Over a year ago, I predicted 1Q2010. I didn't know why, but about two years ago, when Clickhappy (I think) predicted 2Q20
127 Tdscanuck : The reason Boeing wrote them down was they have no commercial value...i.e. they would cost more to refurb than they could be sold for. I interpret th
128 Boeing4ever : Clickhappy was basing his assertion on something a little more substantive than his gut... Don't twist words. I never said they were beyond reproach.
129 Aircellist : I really do not see where you should take offense. I've seen people coming out from many different kinds of schools, that were not competent in whate
130 Astuteman : That shouldn't be necessary. I'm an engineer too. But an intelligent person is one who recognises what they don't know. Without engineering degrees,
131 Rheinwaldner : I thought about that too. We can never be sure about the real impact of such "minor" tasks, that were/are completed in parallel with the "major" stum
132 Manfredj : "A good scientist is a person with original ideas. A good engineer is a person who makes a design that works with as few original ideas as possible."
133 Stitch : But if they're going to VIPs, all they really need to do is remove the flight test stuff and then send the plane on to whomever is doing the customer
134 DocLightning : OK, but why didn't you say that to him in the first place? Would have saved a trip to your boss. How many orders has Boeing lost now? It's got to be
135 Astuteman : didn't need to. I learned the hard way and THEN got my degree(s) And miss the fun? NO WAY! Rgds
136 Astuteman : While I'm here... I'm absolutely mystified. I suspect a serious crossing of wires somewhere along the line. I don't recall at any stage, at any time
137 Boeing4ever : Fair enough, the team failed. But the one who doesn't get fired isn't labeled incompetant unless it was their incompetance that actually failed the t
138 Tdscanuck : As I understand it, refurb would be much more than removing the flight test stuff...unless you want 6 one-off birds flying around, you'd have to roll
139 Stitch : I could see how that would be annoying for an airline taking multiple frames, but for a VIP operator with only one frame, it strikes me as no big dea
140 Nomadd22 : I wouldn't read too much into the writing off of those frames. It might not mean so much that they're not worth refurbishing and selling, but that cla
141 Stitch : Well that was going to be my next question. If they could donate each to a museum and get to write-off the full $120 million list price value, then I
142 AirNz : Then the same applies to the A330 or A350.......or basically any aircraft of your choice. It doesn't matter a damn what an 'assertion' is/was based o
143 Dynamicsguy : In the last conference call James Bell said that the change did not give them any tax benefit. Does the US tax system give any extra credit for money
144 Ikramerica : You contradict me at every turn, and you are wrong once again. The A350, maybe, if it has the same easily interchangeable engines (I don't think it d
145 Tdscanuck : I agree that the operator wouldn't care...it was more the Boeing side I was thinking of. Aircraft evolve over time, so no two are ever exactly identi
146 Boeing4ever : And what pray tell is your problem? I actually gave Clickhappy credit and as usual you approach me with a chip on your shoulder. B4e-Forever New Fron
147 DocLightning : Again, please quote it, and I'll retract it.
148 Boeing4ever : Right here. If you had fingered supply chain management, scheduling, marketing, PR, etc, fine. Anyone can definitively point to them and say they not
149 Astuteman : I have to say that I find the "singular" relationship between CFRP barrels and 40 year life a bit puzzling. In my experience, on my product, the buil
150 XT6Wagon : build up of repairs on the fuselage do put planes out of service. Look at the A320 with a single cracking issue in the beam at the back of the landin
151 Post contains links RedChili : Bernstein now says that the 787 may experience further delays due to the rewiring of airplanes 7 to 12. They also claim that the A350 is between five
152 SEPilot : There is no magic formula that says a product will last this long and no longer. It is always a tradeoff between initial cost, strength, weight, and
153 Astuteman : And I accept that completely. I certainly wasn't trying to "dismiss" structure I guess I come from a view that the entire product needs to be enginee
154 Rheinwaldner : That sounds right, but somehow other aircrafts don't see canceled orders to the same degree (737, 777, 748, A320, A330, A350, A380, did I miss any?).
155 Nomadd22 : Thing is, a good part of the "economically repairable" equation is remaining hull life. Another is being designed with midlife upgrades in mind to st
156 SEPilot : I think that may well be the case. If you have to cancel a contract, you want to do the one with the least penalty. I'm sure that any 787 purchaser a
157 Stitch : And yet what makes that pressure vessel so amazing is the materials it's built out of. Seriously, I both understand where you are coming from and agr
158 AirNZ : I am not attempting to contradict you at any turn whatever as you constantly seem to imagine, but that equally doesn't mean everything you state is d
159 Stitch : QF have stated they can now unilaterally cancel contracts without penalty, which probably influenced their decision to cancel the 787-8s on order for
160 Astuteman : Excellent comment. That's the sort of holistic approach to longevity that I'm interested in seeing, and CFRP being a major, indeed fundamental enable
161 Manfredj : Do we have a life expectancy for the 787? I would say: CFRP is expected to be one of the major enablers in determining a truly exceptional lifespan,
162 Stitch : In practice, chances are 787s (and A350XWBs) won't see average service lives exceptionally longer than the latest Al-skinned airliner families, but t
163 Boeing4ever : Fair enough, but there's a difference between a lucky guess and Clickhappy's assertion which was rooted in some legitimate sources. Doc Lightning jus
164 Tdscanuck : They are, for a couple of reasons. Very few aircraft systems are expected to last the life of the aircraft and, for return-to-service reasons, all of
165 Astuteman : I accept that, Tom. But the same could be said of the Trent XWB vs the Trent 900, couldn't it? Or any other engine? Rgds
166 Dynamicsguy : That's bang on. Despite the large amount of CFRP there's still plenty of metal bits in the structure, and plenty of them are still sized for fatigue
167 Keesje : yesterday I posted a seperate thread about the rewiring issue. It was deleted because it was already mentioned in this thread, reply 151. Then I was
168 EPA001 : I am afraid of this too, but maybe it is in the end not such a negative thing as we might now anticipate. But if more and more customers would cancel
169 Post contains links Rheinwaldner : You could also have used this existing thread: 787 Has Wiring Issues? (by RedFlyer Sep 8 2006 in Civil Aviation) One quote in this thread helps to ju
170 OldAeroGuy : Aerodynamics?
171 Rheinwaldner : The ultimate proof about the work of this departement will be revealed by fligth testing. But I agree that no bad signs popped up so far. The weird t
172 Stitch : Aerodynamic modeling and wind-tunnel testing evidently look very good from what I hear. The engines started out missing their SFC targets by a number
173 AirNz : Absolutely, perfectly valid and I've neither dispute or axe to grind with any of that (or anyone for that matter). I equally understand the frustrati
174 DocLightning : Pretty hard. That doesn't excuse incompetence. Mistakes happen, yes. We know that. So the 747-8 is a few months behind schedule. That doesn't make th
175 Stitch : Airlines are prepared to invest hundreds of billions worth of future new product from Boeing and Airbus based on that premise. I do not expect they h
176 Tdscanuck : Yes. The difficulty lies in making sure that you can hit the interface specification with the retrofit engine. If you set the interface first, as the
177 Ikramerica : Very true. It's why I said it if lives up to the promises. Not that I see them dropping from the skies. Just that with an "old fashioned" aircraft, e
178 DocLightning : I still haven't heard from anyone what happens when you accidentally poke a hole in the side of a 787. I've only heard claims that CFRP is so strong
179 Nomadd22 : The method of repair for CFRP relatively minor damage has existed and been discussed here for years. Did you think they'd thrown away every composite
180 BillReid : The A350 would have been a game changer if it was the B787, but it isn't. By normal definition "Game Changer" is a quantum leap forward that changes
181 AirNz : Can you thus then tell me which widebody has been bought by 85% of the industry? Are you then stating that SQ, EK, QF, LH, BA, AF are all wrong becau
182 BillReid : All I am saying is that a "Game Changer" has to change the dynamics of the industry regardless of the industry and those who do not play by the new ru
183 Tdscanuck : The fatigue properties of CFRP are *very* well known, far far beyond the cycle life of any airliner. You patch it, just like you do today. That's bul
184 Cerecl : How does 787 change the industry dramatically? Yes it should be a very efficient plane, it opens up new routes and more opportunities, but it is stil
185 Tdscanuck : Well, it really hinges on how you define "dramatically", but there are two major things it does (assuming it eventually does what it's supposed to do
186 Cerecl : Absolutely, but I was responding to the notion that 787, and only 787, is capable of achieving this. In fact, 15-20% cost reduction seems to the stan
187 Tdscanuck : Gotcha. There's nothing inherent to the 787 that only it can achieve that level of change...it just happened to be the first of the next generation.
188 Cerecl : SYD or MEL-LHR, SYD-JFK or ORD, GIG-PVG or PEK, SIN-ORD or JFK etc. However, 787 does open up new connections, as I have stated in the original post.
189 Astuteman : What change to the Aviation game has the 787 created? The A340 did this many, many years ago... And the A330 is demonstraby reaching those parts that
190 EPA001 : Too bad that you are quite right with this statement. For sure it will be, eventually. Just as the B77W and the A380 already are and the A350-XWB als
191 Boeing4ever : Fair enough. But with the amount of potential misinformation floating around, I just need something more solid. Clickhappy has access to that. "un-le
192 DocLightning : Duh it's bull. That's probably why I heard it on this very forum! How does it work when you punch a hole in the side of a CFRP barrel?
193 SEPilot : Just as in medicine, new ways of doing things in building airliners are fraught with risks. I watched a movie a while ago about Dr. Alfred Blalock an
194 Rheinbote : I think 20% is completely out of the picture by now. The 787-8 might reduce operating cost by around 10% versus the A332. Nevetheless, still enormous
195 DocLightning : Actually, I'm just curious as to how the patches work. That's all. Nobody's been able to give me even a vague description of the process. 1) Medicine
196 EPA001 : Yes, you are entitled to it. And I think you have summed up the chain of events nicely and I completely agree with you.
197 SEPilot : I was not comparing the tasks; you are quite right that they are very, very different. I was comparing the processes of development in each field, an
198 AirNz : Or, to be fair, it could also easily be those superiors being unwilling to listen to, or believe, what they were told and pressed on regardless.
199 Stitch : I personally see a number of parallels between Boeing and GM in that both companies expanded well beyond their original "core competencies" into mark
200 Cosmofly : I am expecting there will be new problems uncovered as old problems are resolved. However Boeing need to get 787 into the air this time regardless of
201 Astuteman : For what it's worth, I think Boeing went ahead with the 748 (well the -i at least) because they believed that Airbus had "dropped the ball" with the
202 FrmrCAPCADET : 200 seats, and (many) new routes are now possible. (mostly your words), the old 1)leg to 2)hub to 3)hub to destination is just about dead. Most of us
203 Tdscanuck : The 787 (and A350, assuming it hits targets), can do all of those city pairs. How so? The extremely long range versions of the A340 are rather well k
204 SEPilot : Your analysis certainly has merit; this may well be the case. But I still believe that Boeing was also well aware of how profitable it had been for t
205 Ikramerica : Airbus is delivering a whopping 13 A380s this year, below the revised estimate, which was below the previous revised estimate, which was below the pr
206 WAH64D : I think we'll be waiting for quite some time before the 787 is able to deliver on those promises. A greatly improved B777 would make the B787-8 and -
207 EPA001 : This summary I can also agree with. On-topic: is there any news on the progress of installing the patches to the B787? Are they ahead of schedule? Is
208 AirNz : You mean alleged capability. How does it do that......unless you're counting of course that it's well in the lead (and not by a mere nose) regarding
209 Stitch : There appear to be conflicting blog reports claiming that installation either has started or will start soon. I'm not sure if Boeing has formally iss
210 FrmrCAPCADET : The lar It is a truism that if the 350-10 is as good as Airbus wants it will cut into 380 sales. The 787, if and when, is likely to cut into 380 sales
211 Ikramerica : To be more clear as to why I don't agree 100% with this statement: This is true of every major aircraft ever launched, that tweaks and weight reducti
212 Cerecl : This is a thread about 787 repair so I will not start another debate about P2P vs H2H, suffice to say that news about the death of either is greatly
213 XT6Wagon : you say this, but the industry has PROVEN that unless there is a large price difference people will allways flock to the route that has them putting
214 Post contains links Dynamicsguy : I guess you can consider Randy's Journal as formal PR. Boeing seems to have used it recently for news not significant enough for a media release but
215 Cerecl : Your entire post basically says a lot of people prefer NS service if there is no price difference. In what way it contradicts with what I posted? The
216 Tdscanuck : No, I'm talking about current versions. It's very important to remember that quoted ranges are somewhere between max fuel and max payload. Although B
217 Astuteman : No matter how much they "squeaked", they did what no other aircraft did. If the definition of a "game-changer" is that the aircraft is a key enabler
218 DocLightning : Really? The 748 is better than spec. In fact, many airliners have been better than spec. Boeing initially planned to sell the first examples of the 7
219 Tdscanuck : It is, at best, unclear what the current literature says on what will be the eventual delivery models. They've yanked the payload-range curves off th
220 Revelation : The 777W has at least 65 more seats than does the 787-9. They really don't overlap. The improved 777 will put a lot of pressure on the 747-8 though.
221 RedChili : Oh no, not this point-to-point stuff again! The fact is that almost all long-haul routes out there are either hub-to-point or hub-to-hub. Both the A3
222 Justloveplanes : You are correct. This is why the 787 is needed. To expand point to point or point to hub routes, or increase frequencies at hub to hub long distance.
223 FrmrCAPCADET : One stop is generally the maximum most fliers I know are having to or willing to book. (yes there are exceptions). Seattle which has relatively few in
224 Cerecl : You are correct. However, no one here is saying 787 is NOT needed. 787 should be a great aircraft whose eventual sales number should exceed that of 7
225 FrmrCAPCADET : I said nothing about avoiding hubs. Get you quotes in order. What I said is that from most US airports you do not have to do the old style 3 legs. Two
226 Cerecl : According to you H2H is dying. I am simply saying if you can't avoid flying H2H it can't be dying that fast. There are more to the world that the vas
227 DocLightning : Now, if they could get the same economics out of an SST (impossible, I know) THEN that would be a game-changer. But I'm really hoping this opens SFO-
228 Post contains links Part147 : Despite the frustrating and hair-pulling delays by Boeing to get this aircraft flying, I like a quote from this article which sums up how I feel about
229 SEPilot : All of this debate about "game changers" is really about what defines a game changer. To me a game-changing aircraft is one that makes previous aircra
230 Baroque : Er um, maybe not to mention it as a stealth plane seeing that apart from its dazzling debut, it is proving an extremely stealthy plane indeed!
231 Post contains images Rheinwaldner : The 787 is not completely made with CFRP. The amount of CFRP in a plane steadily approached the level seen at the 787 for over 30 years. Only when fo
232 Astuteman : This is where I have an issue. An airliner isn't "built out of CFRP". An airliner is built from countless thousands of parts, equipments, systems, he
233 Post contains links and images Keesje : It's gone for some reason too. I wonder.. http://atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=18051 It is, a brace on the 787 (RTM produced). For the other
234 AirNZ : In all honesty Tom, that 'description' is rather irrelevant and the fact remains is that it achieved it. If you really want to split hairs on "squeak
235 EPA001 : As always a very good post. I think we are thinking more or less in the same direction on this topic. See my older post below:
236 FrmrCAPCADET : NZ and Australia are very low population, pretty isolated, high income countries, . Obviously they will use a different organization than much of the
237 Tdscanuck : Gear are typically life-limited (you've already given up on fatigue), highly monolithic with wierd geometry, volume constrained, and extremely highly
238 Cerecl : It is not as different as you seem to think. In fact some would argue that due to the geographical position and the fragmented nature of US airline i
239 Post contains links ArniePie : Better news from the 787 front. The reinforcement work seems to have come to an end and flighttest personnel goes back working with ZA-001, http://www
240 Lightsaber : To further discuss your point, nothing takes shock loads as well as steel. The gear will probably be the last metal part on the aircraft. Not to ment
241 Manfredj : Agreed, I think this is new thread material.
242 Rheinwaldner : Those could be problematic too: - A lot of moving parts + junctions between moving parts. - Heat conduction to absorb and conduct part of the braking
243 Clickhappy : I hate to type this, but there is a rumor that the "fix" isn't going to work. I am trying to get some clarification and/or more information.
244 EPA001 : I hope this remains a rumor. It would be horrible news if this was to be true.
245 Petteri : Well, that is quite the rumor. Much more info is needed here! This "fix" won't work or any "fix" won't work, ie a total redesign of the area is requi
246 Stitch : Have they started the new test on ZA997 yet, or is their modeling now projecting it won't work after the fact?
247 Lightsaber : Touche' You do know I'm a combustion engineer, right? I should have said 'airframe.' Its going to be a long time before the engine weight is not most
248 DocLightning : I'd add the 747 in there. Oh, what a shock. If this is true, then I am beginning to wonder if the 787 has any hope of ever delivering a ROI and wheth
249 Aircellist : Well... As of yet, all the bad news about this program have begun like "uncontained rumors"... Dismissed by many on this board, and then confirmed, l
250 DocLightning : That's why I am inclined to believe them.
251 Stitch : They'll just keep taking swings at it until they get it right because that's the only choice they have. If the 787 becomes the MD-11 to the A350XWB's
252 Tdscanuck : Why would they be installing a fix that doesn't work? As far as all the PR says, they're still going ahead with installation. Wouldn't the first sign
253 Baroque : I think I just heard him swoosh overhead in a low pass as I read the previous few posts. Golly gosh, that sound like a rather socialistic planned eco
254 AirbusA370 : It was mentioned here before that installing the patch simultaneously on the static test frame and the test aircraft is very risky. Normal procedure w
255 Dynamicsguy : Do you know that this is normal procedure, or are you just guessing? Normal procedure for most structural changes or repairs or derivatives is to onl
256 AirNz : Are you not being a little oversimplistic here? Using that logic why are they even bothering to test fly at all, if the 'computer models' can obvious
257 ArniePie : Has there been any other source apart from in this thread suggesting the newest mods on ZA001 and the static frame won't do the job. I've been scannin
258 Cerecl : IIRC Clickhappy was also the first to break news of the last delay, even before Boeing telling the world that 787 would fly before end of June at the
259 Flyglobal : Wonder what the normal procedure would be. Doing the test on the static test frame and have it installed on on bird dedicated for flying should be ok.
260 Post contains images Flyglobal : Maybe Airbus knows, but would never tell publicly    regarding Boeing PR, I think we are already used to the fact that, if the fix doesn't work, Bo
261 Rheinbote : Well, the 787 was supposed to use CFRP sidestays, but to this day they are still not mature. Depends on what "going to work" means. Going to work for
262 Kappel : It's also not the way it works in Europe. Sure, things tend to be a bit more social over here than in the US for example, but definitely not to the e
263 Baroque : - I would think. The picking winners philosophy is so unpopular in many countries, I can hardly think that designating losers is going to get much of
264 Stitch : Oh it certainly applies to the US, as well. For examples, it's why Congress keeps buying C-17s - shutting down that line will result in lay-offs acro
265 Clickhappy : Sorry guys - still just a rumor, but one that is gathering momentum. I would say there is about a 75% chance that it is true. I hope that it isn't.
266 Tdscanuck : No. The vast (99%+) of aviation repairs are validated by analysis (which is backed by material testing), not whole-design testing. 1) The FAR's requi
267 Stitch : Without any background information, it's difficult to know if Boeing is actually performing any due diligence ahead of time or if they are in "desper
268 Manfredj : Ya know what, certainly while I appreciate this information, you're restraint in this situation would have been the more prudent approach. There are
269 MCIGuy : This is why I say they need to kiss BCA goodbye or the whole company is circling the drain. The 787 program is so plagued now that I don't think even
270 ODwyerpw : Manfredj. thank you for the moment of levity. greatly appreciated.
271 WAH64D : I don't think so. Many people would call it cleaning a room by burying the dirt under the carpet and hoping it will go away. Forgive me if this comes
272 Tdscanuck : Who says they didn't start work on the other frames? Boeing says they started work on all of them. Of course, it's possibly they're bald-faced lying,
273 Stitch : But the actual installation of the fix is only being done on ZA997 and ZA001 at the moment as opposed to performing it on all of the test frames - or
274 Rheinbote : Boeing has not yet announced a program accounting block size, so nobody knows. Technically, this is an arbitrary value they can chose at their conven
275 Stitch : Boeing is never going to say how much they spent nor how much they made, so nobody will ever to be able to say with any definitive authority that the
276 DocLightning : When the cost per plane to cancel the program becomes lower than the cost per plane to continue. Consider the extreme hypothetical situation where te
277 Lightsaber : Thank you for keeping us in the loop. Even an idea of where the rumor mill is going is better information than otherwise available. Thank you. Note:
278 Stitch : If the fix really doesn't work, Boeing might just end up scrapping the first seven frames already in assembly and while they wait however long it is b
279 Flyglobal : When the full Composite fuselage design would turn out impossible, or with too much risk. The alternative then would be to build the plane like Airbu
280 FrmrCAPCADET : None of the union cheerleaders have charged in. They are justified in doing so. Those (relatively) higher paid folks in Seattle and Everett have done
281 Dynamicsguy : No. Where did I say that they don't test a new type? Tom covered it pretty well. Did he? I recall he was talking about a probable delay in the order
282 EPA001 : The B787 fuselage is not full composite. About 50% of the materials used will be composites, just as on the A350-XWB. The main difference in using th
283 Cerecl : I was responding to the comment that someone ought to have leaked if what Clickhappy posted was true. He/she was the first to say that 787 will not f
284 Dynamicsguy : Yes, I understand that the mid-late June prediction was what you're talking about. But I'm pretty sure that at the time Clickhappy only thought there
285 Lightsaber : I respect what Clickhappy posts. Note he is making sure this is a 'rumor' with less than a 100% chance of being correct. I'm not really responding to
286 Tdscanuck : Are you sure that's correct? I've managed to find public data that says that it will be done *first* on ZA997 and ZA001, but nothing that says they'r
287 Chuchamadre : Somehow I don´t think this forum affects the Boeing-workers. This is a popular site........granted........but claiming that we slow down ops at Boei
288 Astuteman : Do we really have those? IIRC there were some analysts posing this question. Nothing official, of course. Get into service around 2 1/2 years late on
289 Scipio : You seem to have accidentally included the sunk costs in both calculations, but your logic is absolutely correct. The costs to continue are the costs
290 Kappel : In this light it's all the more interesting that Mitsubishi has abondened the concept and gone for a more conventional design. I suppose it's too com
291 AirNZ : I agree, and I equally never stated you did. I was however responding to, and disputing, the fact that it was stated that standard procedure is not t
292 Rheinbote : For sure it ain't. Metal substructures everywhere: Frames and stringers below cockpit crown, door frames/surround grids, nose wheel bay and partial f
293 Baroque : The issue is a bit wider in its implications than whether one owns or does not own common stock I suspect. I am pretty sure you did not sell your int
294 WAH64D : It was in reference to Manfredj's post sir.
295 Post contains images EPA001 : Thanks Rheinbote for specifying some of the details about the fuselage composition. I knew that is/will be built out of several materials, but I did
296 Nomadd22 : Measuring composite content by weight is kind of misleading. When you use a substance primarily for weight reduction, the better it performs the less
297 Rheinbote : Right, but do you think the spin doctors in the respective PR departments care? Apart from that, using volume would be misleading as well: Everytime
298 Stitch : Oh they'll clearly modify all the planes - they have to if they wish to get each frame certified for service. My comment is that they are not perform
299 FrmrCAPCADET : Not authoritative sources but I have heard that much of the 748 stuff from Russia had to be redone. Boeing is pretty cagey regarding its 787 partners
300 Baroque : Sorry to hear about your carpals and you might be right about Sisyphus. Just as long as neither the 787 or the 380 proves to represent a Procrustean
301 Stitch : Personally, I think it is because they both became too big and too complex. Boeing and EADS both build fixed-wing and rotary commercial and military
302 Tdscanuck : Definitely. I doubt they'd identify themselves as such, but they're out there. Were they saying "Will it break even?" (a perfectly good question for
303 Banjo76 : And who is responsible for choosing crappy suppliers if that's the case? It has happened once in the company I work for, the outcome was more or less
304 FrmrCAPCADET : Which makes my point - the engineers and machinists, other workers (not including management engineers) had very little to do with this disaster.
305 Stitch : They are. I'm just not expressing myself very well this morning. I'm pretty sure they said ZA997 and ZA001 would be done first (in parallel so that Z
306 Banjo76 : Sorry I misread your post. If it was that you're indeed correct.
307 Khobar : The union guys share in disaster the 787 has become. They very reason Boeing farmed out so much work. Even when the company was down, what did the ma
308 Lightsaber : ON the 748 taking to the skies this year, I'd have to bounce myself! As to 787 at the 2009 airshow... I actually wish that was the case. I've been ha
309 Baroque : You would think part of the problem must be the nature of the system. It is interesting to see private (or semi private to cover myself with A) organ
310 Astuteman : Are you allowed to write that on A-net? My own experience would suggest that we are entering a time in engineering where some parts of management are
311 EPA001 : This is very recognizable to me as well. And I am not even in the manufacturing business.
312 Baroque : I hope your analogy is not too close to the mark as there have been distinct questions as to whether the British sausage (consult Mr Hacker of Yes mi
313 Maxter : Given that Clickhappy has not posted in a while on this forum, perhaps the bullet has been dodged and that the fix is proceeding well. Here's hoping s
314 Starrion : We should also consider that the failure of the "fix" may only apply to the cursed six test frames. ZA001 may have the most man-hours sunk into it of
315 Stitch : That shouldn't matter since all of the production frames need to be close enough in specification to ZA997 for the static test results to be valid fo
316 Lightsaber : Actually... The joint was a Boeing responsiblity and somehow they did not engineer the parts at all the minimums. One never engineers at nominal in a
317 Manfredj : A fix that makes things worse? Not so. You've completely left out the leading reason we have seen so much outsourcing. This is a typical situation Bo
318 Lightsaber : Why publicly? I have done so with every member added to my RU list. That is pretty typical here on a.net. Clickhappy has given a more accurate 'heads
319 ArniePie : Most people realize that unions can do more bad than good from time to time but blaming them for what seem to be systemic shortcomings in the modus o
320 Mattcawby : Yes, the LCFs are delivering 787 parts to Everett regularly and Boeing has a dedicated employee parking lot at ATS for people working on the two 787s
321 Manfredj : You want to take away some of their power? Good luck, but I like the idea. In this instance they couldn't. Whose to blame when the quality/quantity d
322 Astuteman : I left nothing in or out, sir. My comments were broad generalisations, and not intended to be aimed specifically at Boeing and the 787, although I'd
323 Lightsaber : Good to hear. Here is one positive indicator I hope to see shortly: Are the LCFs ramping up their operations towards the planned production rate (not
324 Post contains links 474218 : I guess the rumor of the failed test didn't reach the mid-east yet? http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=328327&srl=109
325 Astuteman : You should have been around a couple of years ago..... "Over"qualified engineers, maybe.. Rgds
326 Stitch : A bit late to the party - Reuters reported that back on the 29th of July.
327 EPA001 : Yes, I guess we could comment here with the famous words "you ain't seen nothing yet". Despite the sad news on two major Boeing programs, and the lar
328 Stitch : I'd argue it's about the same, but even if it isn't, that shouldn't make it any more acceptable then the anti-Airbus commentary was.
329 MCIGuy : Yeah, don't get me wrong, my rhetoric isn't "anti-Boeing", quite the contrary, I'd just like to see them at least survive as a defense contractor.
330 Aircellist : I see you were not a member yet in 2005...
331 DocLightning : Clickhappy! We're dying here! Fill us in, dude!
332 SEPilot : One factor that just occurred to me recently that may partially account for Boeing's management troubles (and may have something to do with Mulally's
333 TISTPAA727 : Step away from this thread for a couple days and next thing you know its over 300 replies. I certainly hope the rumor is not true though Clickhappy ha
334 Post contains links Aircellist : I sure did not expect such a turn of events, starting the thread... Edit: let's add this link to another of Jon's article: http://www.flightglobal.co
335 AirNz : Could you perhaps explain what new 'concept' you seem to see as being used? I fail to see any.
336 Khobar : Would not have to be a member to see posts that far back. And let's recall what those posts were mainly about - people poking fun, saying things like
337 Okie73 : I heard today that the fix for the 787 wing is going to go beyond composites and will involve some sort of metal, aluminum maybe even steel, to fix th
338 DocLightning : See, here's another one of these rumors. This is how it starts. Where did you hear this?
339 474218 : Since the repair has already been described as machined titanium beef-ups for the stringer run outs you information may be correct.
340 Post contains links Aircellist : Read this in this article: http://www.portfolio.com/industry-ne...g-to-park-finished-787s/index.html I re-post the link, which was somewhat lost in m
341 Astuteman : I think it's fairly legitimate, Doc. The fix involves Titanium plates. The article linked by Aircellist implies that these will become a feature on a
342 Post contains links Tdscanuck : Boeing themselves said they're titanium. Transcript of the relevant call is here: http://blog.seattlepi.com/print.asp?entryID=172036 Fair use relevan
343 Aircellist : Am I the only one suprised to see that fix become permanent, instead of having a redesign of the parts? (don't shoot: layman's question)
344 Baroque : No you are not. I was about to ask more or less the same question. Plates on a pre-production flock would seem OK(ish) but for a production standard
345 EPA001 : Well I guess you can have patches and you can have patches. Obviously the "repair" on the A380 wing was minimalistic and also not in the same place w
346 Post contains images Dynamicsguy : It has been stated that the additional weight is small. Regardless of the material - composite or metal - it would add weight. Metallic components wo
347 Chuchamadre : Not a Tdscanuck class of statement.........but I suppose it was called for! If, and I say if; this fix means significantly more weight..........hhhmm
348 RedChili : If... but this time at least, "if" will probably not turn out to be true. I think we're talking about 17 places where each wing needs to be strengthe
349 Astuteman : Just to caution that I thought the article "implied" that. This is where I made my inference. I'd perhaps simplistically assumed that an "interim" fi
350 757GB : Well there is at least 2 of us... I thought a redesign was coming. I have to admit I have not read all the technical articles (not enough time). Rega
351 DocLightning : I was asking about the statement about the aircraft not flying this year. Oh, but when I said the same thing I got lambasted for not appreciating the
352 Tarheelwings : I'm sure there are some that fit that description.....then there are others (hopefully the majority) that don't mind honest and fair minded criticism
353 Manfredj : Well, if the amount of delays is directly proportional to how revolutionary it is, it's quite. Boeing and Airbus can build a conventional airplane wi
354 Stitch : Commercial airliners have mixed composite and metal parts for decades. The 787 and A350XWB are no different in that regard.
355 Justloveplanes : My understanding was that this fix was actually an intial design alternative, and that there was a heated discussion on including these devices or ex
356 Lightsaber : Steel and aluminum is a no no due to the corrosion characteristics. Mixed materials are very common on aircraft. I've designed parts with CRFP and al
357 NorCal : Haven't paid attention to this thread in awhile. So to surmize events, there is a rumor from a reliable source that the wing fix did not work? If true
358 474218 : There are millions of steel fasteners holding aluminum parts together and millions of additional steel parts and patches installed on aluminum aircra
359 ArniePie : Let's not get ahead of things here, up until now even after 5/6 days past last rollout this has only been an unconfirmed rumor on this board alone by
360 AirNz : Firstly, I never at any time stated that it is/was trivial, so where you're getting that from is beyond me. I never even remotely mentioned the word.
361 Stitch : Boeing hasn't said for over two years now, but the last time they did say (September 2007) the OEW was 115t. Airbus believed the weight for ZA001 wit
362 Post contains links Manfredj : So management would have discovered the weekness in the wing join area? This is a management issue? The fastener problem was mis management? So far,
363 EPA001 : Yes it was. The engineers told management about the expected delivery times for such fasteners from suppliers. Management did not listen, so when the
364 Aircellist : There are many things we know only by hearsay, so it is difficult to tell. But... Let's start with the fake roll-out. Should "management" have restra
365 474218 : I can't see how Boeing differs much form the two OEM's I worked for, so thisis how it really works: The Engineering Department designs the aircraft a
366 Stitch : It is true that Engineer's job is to specify the properties the fasteners need to meet, but Purchasing refused to accept the statements from Alcoa tha
367 Aircellist : Thanks, Stitch, for that brilliant explanation. I suppose someone in "management" could have seen that coming... ? Well, anyway, one of the most impor
368 Banjo76 : The key word in my view is this: how on earth can a company with the skill level of B in every field of this industry, that has to look after thousand
369 Stitch : Because I believe Sales & Marketing were the strongest drivers of the 787 program milestones, not Engineering.
370 Ruscoe : That is the most credible explation I have heard yet, regarding the fundamental cause of 787 problems.. Thankyou Stitch. Ruscoe
371 DocLightning : However, I've seen some posts here that make it seem as if Engineering went to Management and said, "we need to do XYZ or the plane won't fly" and Ma
372 Tdscanuck : Well, if you accept patch = spice plate = doubler (they're structurally equivalent in a case like this) then...all of them. Yes, if that were the cas
373 Lightsaber : Thank you. I was wondering at the fuel burn penalty to expect from the weight. It looks like 4% to 5%. Galvanic corrosion is getting a bit off thread
374 Stitch : Scott Hamilton's PianoX projections showed that with an extra 20,000 pounds of structural weight, block fuel burn over 6000nm with a 51,000 pound pay
375 Baroque : Between Stitch's analysis, and your proposal, there might be a solution? But presumably most of those doublers were part of the initial design and no
376 Tdscanuck : I suspect that's true. The only situation where I can see it not being part of initial design is if you find out you've got a fatigue problem and app
377 Aircellist : Time flies. We are now almost at three quarters of the estimated time for completion of the modification... Clickhappy? Any news?
378 Astuteman : The ONLY delay that has been associated with "composite structure" has been the latest wing-join delay. And if this was a modelling problem, it would
379 Post contains links ArniePie : Whatever happens with the 787 next , it's starting to have an effect on the market. The following news better be good because market watchers are push
380 Rheinbote : I heard the same rumor from a different source last week, but that still doesn't confirm anything. I assume that Clickhappy had more than one source
381 Stitch : Good thing Boeing recently secured a multi-billion loan / line of credit while they were an A1 risk.
382 Astuteman : Quite possibly. Was the centre wingbox issue identified as causing a delay? Rgds
383 Stitch : As I recall, that problem was local to the center structure that ran between the two main wheel bogie storage wells. I believe it was corrected in si
384 ArniePie : I'm not 100% sure but I seem to recall that intrests on big loans/credit lines for companies as big as Boeing depend on the current credit rating sta
385 Fcogafa : Flightglobal says Qatar's Al Baker is happy with the B787 situation and expects to get first deliveries in 2011. If HE is happy then things must reall
386 PlunaCRJ : I guess Al Baker and Boeing have had a very interesting talk recently.... what about some very discounted 77Ws? I can´t imagine any other reason for
387 EPA001 : Me neither. Such a change in his position with still so many uncertainties regarding the B787 strikes me as highly remarkable.
388 SEPilot : Anything that any customers say at this point should be taken with a truckload of salt. There are many behind the scenes games being played by Boeing
389 Nomadd22 : "While the installation of the 787 wing fix continues, Boeing engineers have returned to the drawing board to redesign part of the reinforcement, Flig
390 Banjo76 : Emphasys added. To me those two paragraphs sound dangerously similar if you read between the lines. If they have to return to the drawing board, it m
391 EPA001 : Well Clickhappy specifically stated it was a rumor which was gaining momentum. And to have to go back to the drawing board again, now for a part of t
392 Tarheelwings : IMO, and assuming that what Jon is reporting is accurate, there's a big difference between "the fix won't work" and "the structures in question are s
393 AirbusA370 : Ok, this can happen, but why on earth did they start to manufacture and install the fix *before* they finished computer modelling? Something is terri
394 TISTPAA727 : The key phrase here is "back to the drawing board". What we need to know, is that a direct quote from one of Jon's sources or is that Jon's inference
395 Post contains links RedChili : So far, nobody has provided a link to the new Flightblogger story, but here it is: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...unanswered-questions-cautiou
396 Stitch : Probably another case of something being "lost in translation", though I want to make it clear I believe it happened TO Clickhappy and not from him.
397 Nomadd22 : I wonder if this means the final wing design is still in flux. It would make it kind of aggravating for Mitsubishi, trying to get setup to produce the
398 Revelation : Somehow their credibility is a tad bit strained (pun intended) at this point in time.
399 Aircellist : "The fix won't work" does not imply a catastrophe. "Back to the drawing board" does not imply that everything must be scrapped. All that has been said
400 Manfredj : I think Hamlet is more appropriate for this thread: "To be, or not to be: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings
401 Post contains links SA7700 : This thread will now be locked as the topic has taken a new direction. All posts made after this particular post will be removed for housekeeping purp
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