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AI Pilots To Go On Mass Leave  
User currently offlineDTWLAX From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 795 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8023 times:

http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20090926...ia-pilots-not-ready-for-talks.html

Looks like it is the turn of AI pilots to go on mass leave.
Jet Airways pilots did the same earlier this month.

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13130 posts, RR: 100
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7816 times:
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Interesting that this thread is less noted than the 9W thread:

WSJ journal on the cuts. This is cutting 'productivity incentives' (subscription might be required):
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1253...7112836877.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

"For the airline, this has led to a lopsided wage structure with salaries and wages constituting 35 per cent of the total operating costs."

and
"Bhalla said performance-linked pay incentives account for up to 70 percent of total pay of Air India's senior pilots, who are not unionised."

From:
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...09/27/stories/2009092750990100.htm

Wow... 35% is far too high a portion of operating costs.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7743 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 1):
"Bhalla said performance-linked pay incentives account for up to 70 percent of total pay of Air India's senior pilots, who are not unionised."

Does this mean that if they didn't achieve their performance targets they would exist on only 30% of their pay?

This is India where you can live on one Rupee for a week. There is no need for excessive payments especially to vulnerable non-unionized staff.  devil 

Strikes are so yesterday.


User currently offlineDTWLAX From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 795 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7686 times:



Quoting Babybus (Reply 2):
This is India where you can live on one Rupee for a week.

Try surviving for 1 hour on one Rupee and then make ridiculous statements like the one you made. What world are you living in?


User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2561 posts, RR: 53
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7679 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 1):
Wow... 35% is far too high a portion of operating costs.

Really?  Yeah sure Airlines are highly personnel-intensive businesses. 35% of operating costs for people is not bad for an airline. Have you looked at how that compares to other airlines?

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7480 times:



Quoting Babybus (Reply 2):
Does this mean that if they didn't achieve their performance targets they would exist on only 30% of their pay?

30% of their Incentives Not Pay/salary.PLI is in addition to their salary.

Quoting Babybus (Reply 2):
This is India where you can live on one Rupee for a week.

Are you serious?

Its time the Employees of AI realise that for the airline to get back into profits....cuts in excessive incentives are needed,obviously the higher paid will have bigger cuts.

regds
MEL.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineUSFlyer MSP From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7438 times:

Can someone explain how AI's pilot corps are structured? From the article it seems as though there are serveral different pilot workgroups at AI, which recieve wildly varying union representation, workrules, and pay...I didn't quite get it. Also, what kind of PLI's do the senior pilots recieve? To me it seems kind of silly to give pilots PLI's as their main function is safety, which should be automatic and not require incentives...do really get extra money for not crashing the plane?!?

User currently offlineUSAFDO From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4485 times:

Cheers to the AI pilots in their endeavors to stand firm on what they believe in!

Management should start cleaning their own house and looking for ways to better produce revenue than cutting the salaries of the people that keep the ships flying!

Make them raise the airfares or increase the taxes on the tickets, cut all the magazines in coach, sell pillows, sell food and liquor in coach rather than give it away for free... or whatever works so that the workers don't have to suffer.


User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2134 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4182 times:

I have the impression that AI is relatively inefficient personnel-wise compared to their competition. By this i mean they achieve fewer RPKs per employees than any of their competitors.

If this is accurate, then to be competitive, AI must cut workforce and/or reduce compensation. Where is the flaw in that logic?

The RPK statistics are published by the DGCA and you need to combine AI and IC statistics to see how their RPKs/employee compare with the others. I'm just too lazy to do it. The fact that AI have more long-haul international flights than the others works in their (AIs) favor for these statistics



The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently offlineDTWLAX From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 795 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4135 times:



Quoting USAFDO (Reply 7):
Management should start cleaning their own house and looking for ways to better produce revenue than cutting the salaries of the people that keep the ships flying!

Make them raise the airfares or increase the taxes on the tickets, cut all the magazines in coach, sell pillows, sell food and liquor in coach rather than give it away for free... or whatever works so that the workers don't have to suffer.

The reason for people that keep the ships flying is the customer.
Now, if you start implementing the procedures you mentioned above, the customer will stop flying the airline and look for other options.

So if your methods are put into practice so that the workers don't have to suffer, good luck. They may end up suffering even more!!!!
How are you goin to generate revenue if your customer base goes down?


User currently offlineUSAFDO From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4121 times:

HELLO....US airlines are already doing that!!!!

And this week started charging for a window or aisle seat.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13130 posts, RR: 100
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4053 times:
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Quoting HAL (Reply 4):
Have you looked at how that compares to other airlines?

Yes. Their competition seems to mostly be mium revenue. Companies will not pay as much. If air travel is too expensive... video conferencing or just... no travel and no jobs related to the travel.

There is a middle ground, but like it or not, the pilots will be taking a pay cut.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2561 posts, RR: 53
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3973 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 11):
There is a middle ground, but like it or not, the pilots will be taking a pay cut.

Am I mistaken, or isn't the 35% number the total payroll for the airline - not just the pilots.

There is just no possible way that just the pilots can cost the airline 35% of its expenses. The way the article puts it is: The pilots claim they are being forced to take this step as the management has cut their Productivity Linked Incentive by more than 50 per cent. In Air India, PLI forms a significant part of the monthly emoluments of the employees. For the airline, this has led to a lopsided wage structure with salaries and wages constituting 35 per cent of the total operating costs. (emphasis mine).

That sure looks to me like it's the total personnel cost at 35%, not just the pilots.

Yes, I'm sure the pilots will get a pay cut. And so should many other employees. But it's always the highest paid that stick out to the media and get the most attention at any company.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3955 times:



Quoting HAL (Reply 12):
Yes, I'm sure the pilots will get a pay cut. And so should many other employees.

Thats true.PLI is applicable to other Employees too but at much lower rate due to lower scales.
regds
MEL.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineDTWLAX From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 795 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3904 times:



Quoting USAFDO (Reply 10):
HELLO....US airlines are already doing that!!!!

And this week started charging for a window or aisle seat.

Just because US airlines are doing that does not mean the rest of the world has to follow.

And FYI... it is only in the US that drinks and meals are not complimentary on flights.
Inspite of charging for food and drinks, US airlines have not been able to turn around their fortunes. And that is because the customer is not happy.That should give you enough hints about the lack of customer service in the US air industry.


User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4755 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3888 times:



Quoting USAFDO (Reply 7):
Make them raise the airfares or increase the taxes on the tickets, cut all the magazines in coach, sell pillows, sell food and liquor in coach rather than give it away for free... or whatever works so that the workers don't have to suffer.



Quoting USAFDO (Reply 10):
HELLO....US airlines are already doing that!!!!

And this week started charging for a window or aisle seat.

... this is the reason why the US carriers are in such sorry states compared to their peers elsewhere. These measures are very short term stop-gap which in the long run would only do them harm. Oh wait, I think I am beginning to see the effects of it already.  melting 

You don't have to literally cut corners and start nickle diming every damn thing just so you can start feeling better about yourself.



Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
User currently offlineUSAFDO From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3844 times:

So every ones solution is to screw the AI pilots out of there salary....I don't think so!

The airline should raise their ticket prices.


User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4755 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3790 times:



Quoting USAFDO (Reply 16):
So every ones solution is to screw the AI pilots out of there salary....I don't think so!

The airline should raise their ticket prices.

Dude, are you even listening? Not every US solution is a solution for all, you are starting to sound like Bush with his "with me or against me" spiel. Raising the ticket prices is a means to stop screwing these pilots out of their salaries? Your profile say you work in "airport operations" so it makes me wonder what part of the operations are you involved in. I would be very surprised if it was anything strategic.

I think you need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture here. The horizon extends BEYOND the shores of California and New York and after crossing oceans, what do you know (??) there are actually other countries there too!



Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
User currently offlineDTWLAX From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 795 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3533 times:



Quoting USAFDO (Reply 16):
So every ones solution is to screw the AI pilots out of there salary....I don't think so!

The airline should raise their ticket prices.

Dude... we are not saying the pilots should get screwed.
What we are trying to say is just raising ticket prices and charging for meals is not going to help. You just need to look at the US airlines for this. These airlines are still struggling even with charging for meals, bags, etc.

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 15):
... this is the reason why the US carriers are in such sorry states compared to their peers elsewhere. These measures are very short term stop-gap which in the long run would only do them harm. Oh wait, I think I am beginning to see the effects of it already.

You don't have to literally cut corners and start nickle diming every damn thing just so you can start feeling better about yourself.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark  ... well said!!!


User currently offlineUSAFDO From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3487 times:

Ryanair....Ryanair.... R U kidding me!

We should listen to someone who works for Ryanair.... Oh don't get me started.


User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2561 posts, RR: 53
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3457 times:



Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 14):
US airlines have not been able to turn around their fortunes. And that is because the customer is not happy.

I'll disagree with that statement. In fact, it's completely backwards.

US airlines are in a financial bind because there is too much competition! Yes, too much. When you have too many airlines chasing too few passengers, they'll do anything to get those people onboard. Charge $99 for a transcontinental seat? You'll lose money, but it's $99 more than you would have had if the passenger would have gone on your competition - which is what would have happend if you'd charged $101 for that ticket.

Don't blame this on high salaries or unhappy customers. I find it amazing that so many people here, especially many who reside outside the US or aren't employed in the airline industry think that offering more legroom or AVOD or free meals will turn the US industry around. It won't. It's been tried, and it hasn't worked. And those same people here complain that bad customer service has driven away customers. It hasn't. As I said before, the problem is too much competition, which causes the airlines to reduce fares to try and capture market share, which causes the airlines to cut costs wherever they can - usually in the form of decreased amenities onboard, and reduced staffing for employees. Have you really talked to any customer service agents at length about their working conditions? Or to pilots about the additional flying they're doing now at reduced salaries? Yes it's necessary in order to keep the airline running. If the airlines didn't cut costs like that, they'd be just another name in the PanAm-Eastern-TWA-Aloha-ATA dustheap. But that doesn't make it any easier to do the job - and no matter how much you love your job (as most CSR's and Pilots do), fatigue will cause a loss of performance that can grow extraordinarily frustrating over time. Airlines are fighting to stay afloat in this business environment, and the casualties in that battle are employee morale, and customer satisfaction.

So increase customer satisfaction you say? Great. Where is the money to start with? How are you going to pay for more CSR's, more pilots, AVOD, or food on the plane when your customers walk away from your airline if you bump up fares by a dollar or two?? You've all heard the expressions before - 'dog-eat-dog world out there', or 'survival of the fittest', or 'may-the-best-survive'? Well, here we are, and that is what the US airlines are trying to do. No, nothing is perfect. For instance the management at UA has recently said that they'd spent too much time focusing on enhancing revenue to the detriment of customer satisfaction. They're trying, but have limited resources to do it. However the truth is that without revenue to run the airline, there would be no customers at all.

Please don't bring out the old EK or SQ arguments. Those airlines have carved out a specific niche where there isn't as much competition as in other places, domestic and shorthaul in Europe & the US for example. Their niche at the moment allows them to charge fares that keep the airlines flush. The fact is however that longer flights don't have a commesurate increase in costs, so a domestic US flight that is only 10% the distance of a typical EK longhaul one doesn't have just 10% of the cost to the company, but rather more. Yet the customers have gotten used to the competition in the US that causes the fares to be only 10% of an EK longhaul, which drives the airlines toward bankruptcy. Costs have been driven down, but what else can the airlines do?

So yes, the pilots and employees at AI will most likely take a pay cut. It's required to keep the company afloat. But to blame the woes of AI, or any other airline in the world on the employees is to completely ignore the basics of competition in the industry. What will work? An economic basic: Make the supply match the demand (fewer seats available) which will drive the revenue to a point where the airlines can again become sustainable. But which airlines will be the ones to cut back drastically? Which ones will have to fold in order for others to survive? And once the bloodletting is done, will governments suddenly step in crying "Unfair monopoly" to the survivors?

It's going to be an interesting decade ahead.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4755 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3451 times:

Quoting USAFDO (Reply 19):
We should listen to someone who works for Ryanair.... Oh don't get me started.

So who is working for Ryanair? Did I miss something here? Very mature... Lose an argument and take a swipe at my username.

[Edited 2009-09-28 20:58:06]


Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
User currently offlineOjas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2975 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3448 times:

One must look at a few facts about AI as of today

* losses are as of today USD 1.6 billion, and a debt of USD 3.5 billion.

* Extreme interference of the govt. in the AI Mgmt. decisions, therefore the entire corrupt ministry and AI staff get to do what is good for them and are least concerned about the passengers.

*No sync between the pilots as a result only a handful are on strike, the exec. pilots. as a result the LCC arm AIX is running on schedule.

There is no comprehensive policy in place to deal with such situations hence no one is able to take any sort of concrete action. The politicians treat AI as their mistress and use and dump them as and when required. These good for nothing bureaucrats and senior pilots at times dump fare paying passengers to accommodate not only families but extended families and even their domestic help. Yes I'm not kidding even the domestic help, maids and nannies are made to fly F/J.

With such a poor organisation, it was actually in the interest of AI had it been shut down for 15 days and all the filth had been wiped off.

The current CMD is a person, after so many years, who has the balls to take the right steps of their turnaround plan. Capt. Bhalla is nothing but a joke, who is struggling to speak English and just cannot figure out what to blurt int he media and what not.



A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13130 posts, RR: 100
Reply 23, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3243 times:
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Quoting HAL (Reply 12):
Am I mistaken, or isn't the 35% number the total payroll for the airline - not just the pilots.

EK total personel costs are mium passengers when that was the profit and now are losing with all the airlines with little cash reserves. A 'rule of thumb' is that low margin business is very vulnerable during a downturn.

Quoting Ojas (Reply 22):
One must look at a few facts about AI as of today

* losses are as of today USD 1.6 billion, and a debt of USD 3.5 billion.

* Extreme interference of the govt. in the AI Mgmt. decisions, therefore the entire corrupt ministry and AI staff get to do what is good for them and are least concerned about the passengers.

Excellent points. I'm not sure which is huring them more of these two points... both have put them in trouble.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4755 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3218 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 23):
Excellent points. I'm not sure which is huring them more of these two points... both have put them in trouble.

AI's case has been replicated in many places of the world...

- Olympic Airways
- Alitalia
- Air Zimbabwe
- Aerolineas Argentina
- Malaysia Airlines
- Philippine Airlines (reformed)
- Garuda (reformed)



Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
25 Post contains links AirIndia : times of india reports, the strike is off. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/n...off-strike/articleshow/5070888.cms
26 WestWing : The article says that the pilots got an assurance from the minister (Praful Patel) that the salaries would not be cut. Hmmm. I wonder if the AI manag
27 HAWK21M : The Stike is called off on MoCA assurance.....But it could reoccur in future if no solution is found & Salaries delayed/PLI cut. regds MEL.
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