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Will Delta Consider The A321?  
User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3996 posts, RR: 12
Posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 18702 times:
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I think they should at least evaluate it. Maybe they already thought of it.
Now that the A319/320 aircraft (all ex-Northwest I know) are part of the Delta fleet, I don't see considering the A321 as an impossibility for Delta. The A321 will bring fleet commonality with the large fleet of A319/320 and could be the MD-88 replacement for the mid 2010's, and it could also replace the oldest 757's which date from the 1980's. All of Delta's MD-88's are currently flown on less than 3 hour flights, so the A321 would be the best suitable replacement, it must be more economical to operate an A321 instead of a 757 or a 737-800 on less than 3 hour flights. The 737-700 and 800 Series are flown mostly on longer segments in the system.
I thought about this after seeing the thread regarding the A319 and A320 aircraft at Delta following the Northwest acquisition.

Ben Soriano


Ben Soriano
166 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 18700 times:

Quoting American 767 (Thread starter):
I think they should at least evaluate it. Maybe they already thought of it.
Now that the A319/320 aircraft (all ex-Northwest I know) are part of the Delta fleet, I don't see considering the A321 as an impossibility for Delta. The A321 will bring fleet commonality with the large fleet of A319/320 and could be the MD-88 replacement for the mid 2010's, and it could also replace the oldest 757's which date from the 1980's. All of Delta's MD-88's are currently flown on less than 3 hour flights, so the A321 would be the best suitable replacement, it must be more economical to operate an A321 instead of a 757 or a 737-800 on less than 3 hour flights. The 737-700 and 800 Series are flown mostly on longer segments in the system.
I thought about this after seeing the thread regarding the A319 and A320 aircraft at Delta following the Northwest acquisition.

I personally find the 739ER to be more likely. While the total number of A320 series aircraft now outnumber the 737NG fleet, since DL is in charge of the combined company, the 739ER just seems more likely.

Also, from what I have heard, DL will not be accepting delivery of the two NW A320s and five A319s on order.

[Edited 2009-09-26 18:46:45]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5209 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 18656 times:

Doubtful, the 737-800 serves their needs pretty well.


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5827 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 18661 times:



Quoting American 767 (Thread starter):
I think they should at least evaluate it.

DL would be STUPID to NOT evaluate the whole A320 family and I don't believe DL is stupid. What the result of that evaluation will be, ahh that's another question entirely!

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20355 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 18596 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 3):

DL would be STUPID to NOT evaluate the whole A320 family and I don't believe DL is stupid. What the result of that evaluation will be, ahh that's another question entirely!



Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 2):
Doubtful, the 737-800 serves their needs pretty well.

I tend to agree with Drerx7. DL has shown a pretty strong Boeing loyalty. I think they're secretly glad they got A330's (hence the 787 deferment) but otherwise, they have an unwritten agreement with Boeing in return for some very favorable treatment. Now, what DL can do with this is use the fact that they now do have an A320 fleet to flex some bargaining muscle with Boeing over future 738 purchases. But I think the 738 serves DL very well for those routes and I can't imagine them deciding that they need the extra capacity.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 18594 times:



Quoting American 767 (Thread starter):
The A321 will bring fleet commonality with the large fleet of A319/320



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 1):
While the total number of A320 series aircraft now outnumber the 737NG fleet,

Fleet commonality is really not a big deal when you are talking about the numbers that DL has.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 1):
since DL is in charge of the combined company, the 739ER just seems more likely.

I have my doubts that DL will go with Airbus, but not because DL was the surviving brand. A lot of NW managers are still there, but I don't think that is the deciding factor either. But Boeing will give them preferential treatment and a really good deal in order to keep DL on board, in accordance with their gentleman's agreement.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1642 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 18446 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
I have my doubts that DL will go with Airbus, but not because DL was the surviving brand. A lot of NW managers are still there, but I don't think that is the deciding factor either. But Boeing will give them preferential treatment and a really good deal in order to keep DL on board, in accordance with their gentleman's agreement.

Not to get picayune, but doesn't the same logic apply then to Airbus as well -- that even though Delta is the surviving co., Airbus now has their foot in the door?


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 18417 times:



Quoting LHCVG (Reply 6):
Not to get picayune, but doesn't the same logic apply then to Airbus as well -- that even though Delta is the surviving co., Airbus now has their foot in the door?

Perhaps, but the agreement Boeing has had with DL, CO, and AA has served the airlines well and I have no reason to believe that Boeing will do anything to send DL to Airbus. People like to characterize the gentleman's agreement as Boeing having the airlines by the you-know-whats, but this is in fact not the case. If anything, it is the other way around. The airlines would not have signed it, let alone stuck with it despite it being unenforceable on Boeing's end unless it were quite beneficial to them.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineYankeejuliet From Jamaica, joined Sep 2008, 208 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 18394 times:
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A321s can perform 757s missions more economically , however the final decision will be determined by a detailed study of the 737-900 and the said A321 on these missions.

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 18342 times:



Quoting Yankeejuliet (Reply 8):
A321s can perform 757s missions more economically ,

A321s can perform SOME 757 missions more economically.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineYankeejuliet From Jamaica, joined Sep 2008, 208 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 18286 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):

I stand corrected, "most" not "some"


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 18252 times:

I wonder, why are Airbus fans thinking that DL is now forced to buy from Airbus just because they bought out NW? DL had a gentleman's agreement with Boeing, while NW didn't have any such agreement with Airbus (NW orderd the 787 before they were bought out by DL).


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 18210 times:



Quoting Yankeejuliet (Reply 10):
I stand corrected, "most" not "some"

That depends on what you are doing with them. They are fine for ATL-Florida runs, but not for transatlantic and a bit dicey for transcon. The A321 has roughly the same range as the A320 and 737-800. While the A321 could make Hawaii from the West Coast (if they got ETOPS cert) an A321 would have to refuel on transcon flights when the winds are unfavorable. Not a deal breaker, but a factor.

Either way, DL probably won't be replacing the 757s for a while. They are still trying to rationalize and rightsize what they have and even after that have bigger fish to fry than replacing planes that have plenty of life left. The 757 is not the fuel chugging dinosaur that some make it out to be.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineGBan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 18151 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 11):
I wonder, why are Airbus fans thinking that DL is now forced to buy from Airbus

Which posts makes you assume that the posters (Airbus fans) think "DL is now forced to buy from Airbus"?


User currently offlineSXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2445 posts, RR: 23
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 18133 times:

Here is a few things about the DL fleet that I always thought about :

1.) Will the 737 series eventually replace the DC-9-40/50's as well as the A319/320?

2.) Will there be an additional A330 order since DL seems to be quite happy with them?

One thing that is for sure, is that the interior on the A330s blow the interior of the 767-300ERs out of the water. The A330's have new overhead bins,seats, while the interior of the 763ERs look outdated. I have never been on either plane but from what I have seen in photos, the A330s seem to offer a much more superior product. IMHO.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3224 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 18133 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 11):
I wonder, why are Airbus fans thinking that DL is now forced to buy from Airbus just because they bought out NW? DL had a gentleman's agreement with Boeing, while NW didn't have any such agreement with Airbus (NW orderd the 787 before they were bought out by DL).

Well I wouldn't think DL is now forced. I'd consider it from a totally different perspective. If I were airbus... now is time for checkmate as far as DL is concerned. Strategically, now would be the very best time to 'drive the knife' into that gentlement's agreement. Now Airbus obviously doesn't want to act prematurely... it could very well shoot itself in the foot for doing so... but while DL has this huge A330 and A320 fleet about the place, a few right placed moves may be enough to tip the balance in Airbus' favor. I dont think there's any way in hell DL would go exclusively airbus (none of the big 3 in europe have),But I'm not so sure under the right conditions they won't order more.

To stick with the A321 example. If airbus was willing to throw some of them dirt cheap at Delta...purely as a strategic move (lets say its coupled with a few A332s) then I think they may seriously consider them. Look at the way DL snapped up used MD-90s because they were cheap and offered efficieny at a very cheap price. Now imagine Airbus decides to throw some A321s into the equation SIGNICANTLY (not just a bit but a real chunk) below cost? There are definately routes they could be used on. MSP to Any hub would be a good start. Thow in say 4 332's also dirt cheap and you'll have broken the gentleman's agreement. We know they're liking having the A330 about and a few more 332's wouldn't go astray.

Now is it worth DL's while? Absolutely. The real question is are airbus willing to take a big enough hit on a few things to tempt DL? Remember DL would have zero introduction costs for brining these aircraft into the fleet. Maybe even offer DL a geared turbofan A320. That would surely get their atttention.


User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21867 posts, RR: 55
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 18120 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
A321s can perform SOME 757 missions more economically.

The domestic routes are better done with a 321 or 739 than a 757 (except for the long transcons from the Northeast - any ATL route would be fine for a 321).

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
Either way, DL probably won't be replacing the 757s for a while.

DL getting 321s or 739s would not necessarily mean they are retiring the 752s. They could move some more 752s to international routes (that a 321 or 739 can't do), and start the process of drawing down the MD-88 fleet.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 18073 times:



Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 15):
The real question is are airbus willing to take a big enough hit on a few things to tempt DL?

And how big of a hit Boeing is willing to take in order to keep them.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 15):
Remember DL would have zero introduction costs for brining these aircraft into the fleet.

And also have zero introduction costs for more 737s.

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
The domestic routes are better done with a 321 or 739 than a 757

In many cases, but don't underestimate the benefit of having aircraft that are paid for. (though I think that much of the 757 fleet is leased) Also, there are a few places where the superior field performance of the 757 would come in handy, like SNA and perhaps SLC during the summer.

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
They could move some more 752s to international routes (that a 321 or 739 can't do), and start the process of drawing down the MD-88 fleet.

They could do that, but I don't get the impression that DL is in any hurry to do anything like that, or replace the 757s.

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 14):
One thing that is for sure, is that the interior on the A330s blow the interior of the 767-300ERs out of the water.

That doesn't mean a whole lot. DL could start refurbishing 767s and they would be every bit as nice as the A330. Also, the 767-400 BusinessElite product is considered superior to business on the A330 and is being placed on all LHR routes.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMSYPI7185 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 711 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 18030 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
an A321 would have to refuel on transcon flights when the winds are unfavorable.

Not quite true. The A321's do transcon all the time without have to stop for a fuel. It is rare that this happens contrary to popular belief here on anet.

MD


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 18012 times:



Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 18):
Not quite true. The A321's do transcon all the time without have to stop for a fuel. It is rare that this happens contrary to popular belief here on anet.

 redflag  They do, and so do 737s and A320s. I never said they make fuel stops on a regular basis hence I said:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
when the winds are unfavorable. Not a deal breaker, but a factor.

Airlines do, of course, account for IROPS things such as this.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDL747400 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 17900 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
they have an unwritten agreement with Boeing in return for some very favorable treatment.

The 20-year exclusive provider agreement is actually a multi-page legal document, signed by senior management of both companies, and remains to this day on file in one of Delta's secure document repositories.


User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10655 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 17840 times:

The fact that Boeing was and is one of DL's largest creditors and sat on the creditor's committee during the bankruptcy, MAY have some bearing on DL's a/c purchase decisions.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineDTWLAX From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 820 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 17814 times:



Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 18):

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
an A321 would have to refuel on transcon flights when the winds are unfavorable.

Not quite true. The A321's do transcon all the time without have to stop for a fuel. It is rare that this happens contrary to popular belief here on anet.

I agree. The A321 does regular transcon from PHL-LAX on US Airways

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
A321 would have to refuel on transcon flights when the winds are unfavorable. Not a deal breaker, but a factor.

I have not heard of a A321 having to refuel even with unfavorable winds. I feel it can still make the trip.


User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 17794 times:

Well I would have to think that the A321 would probably not be in the plans for DL as I would have to believe that the NW A32X fleet is on average a few years older than the DL 738 fleet. Now not that it would mean anything but I do believe that would have to be some part of the consideration. The 739 and A321 can do Transcon flights but do they have the ability to carry cargo and/or the amount of bags that a 752 can carry??? I know that the 737's can't but I have never worked an A321 before. Now I have flown on a US A321, an original US plane, from PHX-ONT and it was a really nice ride.

FX1816


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3224 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 17782 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17):
That doesn't mean a whole lot. DL could start refurbishing 767s and they would be every bit as nice as the A330. Also, the 767-400 BusinessElite product is considered superior to business on the A330 and is being placed on all LHR routes.

And both the 763 and A330 are getting that same seat so in the longer term that's not a consideration. Airbus 'throwing in " those new seats on 332s to be subbed for 763s may appear more attractive though.

Yes boeing can counter act all these things. The real question is how far are they willing to do it. Purely from a cost point of view it doesn't make any sense for either boeing or airbus to do it...particularly on the single isle front, both having big backlogs. The only thing that can be gained really, is that airbus... from a stragic point of view decides while all its products are on the ground and in house, now is good time to take that hit. It would mean less profit somewhere else...and atm they're both not too keen on playing to many of those games. See Ryanair's rencent shafting.

Next, we have senior management going on record saying they intend to stick to a muli-supplier strategy. In some ways, that's an invitiation for airbus to treat. We don't see Continental making such statements! (though a merger with UA and that could change it all again too) .

Let's just for a moment imagine that they did break it. What are boeing going to do? Are they really going to shaft Delta? The world's largest carrier by far? Are they Really going to put the price up next time Delta wants to order? Are they really going to send them running into the arms of airbus? I think not. Not for a second.


25 BMI727 : Most of the time yes. But there are periods where a lot of the 737s, and A320s have to stop for fuel. The A321 has almost exactly the same range as t
26 Lufthansa : Very good point, although they've parked some older ones recently. The 757 is of course heavier and if you dont need the range or additional upload,
27 TSS : Since Delta has inherited a fair number of A32x aircraft via the DL/NW merger, I think the next few years will be an unparalleled opportunity for DL
28 BMI727 : That is what CEOs who buy expensive airliners say. I have no reason to believe that Boeing intends to alter whatever concessions DL has been getting
29 DocLightning : And yet, I once had a 7 hour JFK-SFO flight on an A319. Good thing it was an A319...
30 OA412 : You are laboring under the impression that if DL were to purchase the A321 that it would be a 757 replacement. The A321 is NOT a 757 replacement. Loo
31 BMI727 : ...where the A321 is a partial replacement for the 757 on shorter routes. The A321 won't completely replace the 757 because it can't replace the 757.
32 Columba : I wonder why Boeing fans are still repeating the mantra of the "gentlemen´s agreement" and DL becoming an all Boeing airline after they get rid of a
33 OyKIE : I wonder why so few airlines, change their overhead bins, and make a complete redo of the interior. The 767 interiors look so dated. It must be very
34 PlaneAdmirer : Like number of cycles achievable and years of projected service?
35 ERJ170 : Delta management would be absolutely idiotic not to state this. Although they have had/currently have very favorable terms with Boeing, anything they
36 Post contains links OyKIE : And to a higher degree, despatch reliability, maitenance cost etc. According to Boeing their NG airplanes have 20-30% lower maitenance cost compared
37 Lufthansa : OyKIE... another consideration. Those figures SAS publish are according to use in SAS. They're not two aircraft lined up and flying the exact same mi
38 Bobnwa : Other than JFK-LAX/SFO/SEA, which is about a dozen flights a day, how may true trans-cons does DL offer, that would be affected by adverse winds? Non
39 Revelation : Who says they wouldn't? Funny, the Airbus fans also seem to bring up the gentlemen's agreement just as frequently, to explain the lack of success Air
40 WESTERN737800 : I think DL will or is looking at the 321. My gut feeling tells me though that they'll go with 738s or 739ER. I don't think they're in a big rush to re
41 DelawareUSA : why 321 when they already have 737 ng and 737-900 er is more fuel efficeient and versitle
42 1337Delta764 : So can anyone tell me, if DL's gentleman's agreement with Boeing (which gives DL preferential pricing and treatment) isn't a good reason to stick with
43 Par13del : It is good to know that only Boeing has the onerous ability to overcharge customers for their products This was a design feature by Airbus over Boein
44 CYatUK : Couldn't they be making more money by using the A330 instead of B767?
45 Bobnwa : Please furinsh a list of airlines currently making money flying the 767 to any extent.
46 Par13del : Absolutely, they just have to get past the purchase price, waiting list and get a good deal selling the obsolete 767, but for sure every flight with
47 BMI727 : Exactly, to quote myself... Doesn't really matter, since commonality is a relatively small factor when we are talking about more than ~30 aircraft. .
48 YXwatcherMKE : Would DL consider the 321 maybe, but I really don't see DL actually making a purchase of any 321's. but as a good medical motto goes, never say never
49 Bobnwa : Most airlines are not currently making money flying wide-bodies on any routes, so the A330 could not be making more money.
50 FX1816 : This is a really poor statement. Yes they have a large A32X pilot and mechanic pool now but they ALSO have a very large 738 pool of pilots and mechan
51 TravelExec : DL has more aircraft than it needs, and no cash to pay for more anyway. No need for any Airbus or Boeing... watch them shed capacity for the next few
52 DocLightning : One just got parked.
53 KGAIflyer : Hmmm. With the news that DL is sending 330s to the desert for storage over the winter, sounds like a few decisions have been made in relation to this
54 Par13del : To keep it simple, I'll give you three airlines, all of them are not making money so I guess it is fair to say they are loosing money because they fl
55 Cubsrule : That is a nonsense statement. If the 330 were a Boeing and the 767 and Airbus, do you think they would have parked the 767? ...and NW is MORE familia
56 OyKIE : Every SAS planes are used on every routes within the European network. The A319 are based in CPH, the 737-700 are based in OSL as well as ARN. But al
57 KGAIflyer : Whether said as nonsense or not isn't the point either. The fact is Delta had a choice of aircraft to remove from service during this slack travel se
58 Cubsrule : The 333 seats 50 more passengers than the 764. They are not peers. The choice has nothing to do with manufacturer; they are two different airplanes.
59 BMI727 : And the 764 has a better BusinessElite product than the A330. Might be interesting to see if some A330s get temporarily shifted onto 764 flying durin
60 1337Delta764 : Well, currently only seven of the 764ERs have the Thompson Vantage flat-bed seats in BusinessElite, while the rest have the B/E Aerospace Millennium
61 FX1816 : Obviously you did not read my whole statement and it's evident by you only posting back a small portion of it that you have taken out of context. The
62 PPVRA : The question then becomes whether this is even needed, especially since we also have 767s and 777s flying transcon, with their potential performance
63 Cubsrule : You said more, not equal. That's why I responded. The combined company probably has equal experience with the two narrowbody families, with Delta's m
64 Transpac787 : Gee, we're fresh out of USA Today articles entitled "Airlines that make money flying the 767"... In regard to the thread, for the umteenth time, NO..
65 LongHauler : The overhead bins are only "dated" to those that have seen new B767s, with new interiors ... and can tell the difference. In other words, just those
66 FX1816 : How could you give a leg up to Boeing and Airbus??? It's not possible and that was my point. FX1816
67 FX1816 : How come no one is actually looking at the fact that DL now has many more aircraft than they had before and thus need to sort out the whole fleet situ
68 Cubsrule : I'm not sure this statement is logical. The 73G and 738 are on different payscales. The 319 and 320 are not. It's really not any less sensible to pay
69 Bobnwa : A single A330 has been sent to the desert for probably a short stay. How many 767's do you think Delta has in the desert. I will bet more than one. N
70 Transpac787 : Sensible or not, that doesn't negate the fact that payscales exist for the 739/739ER but do not exist for the A321. The contract includes established
71 Cubsrule : ...and that's not a point I can argue with (or am arguing with). I was merely pointing out that it's not necessarily true that the 321 would have a d
72 Alitalia744 : If DL goes with new narrowbody, 757 replacement capacity it will be in the form of a 737 aircraft people.
73 LACA773 : This is one of the reasons why US started taking delivery of the more powerful 321-200s over the 100 series. This more advanced model allows them to
74 Cubsrule : ...and I wonder whether that would actually be a strike against the 739ER. Is the 321 more economical on short missions (ATL-Florida or DTW-east coas
75 1337Delta764 : Also, everyone should remember that DL will be eliminating the 5500-series NW 752s, with no replacement planned. So I don't think DL is in a rush to
76 DeltaL1011man : Just to put this out here(and i'm not reading all 70+ post to see if its been said) the DALPA has the 737-900ER in the contract but no 321s. What this
77 Nwarooster : What seems to be over looked in this biog are two items. First ,which has been mentioned some, is that Delta still has to absorb the acquisition of No
78 USAirALB : 73G Range: 3,365 nmi 738 Range: 3,060 nmi 739ER Range :3,200 nmi 752 Range: 3,900 nmi 753 Range: 3,467 nmi jfk-lhr 2999 nmi jfk-lax 2151 nmi
79 PGNCS : The 737-700 and -800 are paid at the same rate as are the A-319 and A-320. There are provisions in airline contracts for setting pay rates for new ty
80 Transpac787 : I'm quite surprised you don't know your own contract Eff 01/01/2009 12 year 737 captain: $161.09 / hr 12 year 320 captain: $155.43 / hr 12 year 737 f
81 Viscount724 : If those range numbers are as quoted by Boeing, remember that they don't consider cargo or winds. To get real-world range numbers you normally have t
82 KGAIflyer : Make it up? Didn't you know? There's a whole thread on this topic in the Civil Aviation forum. Otherwise, even though I have 1.6 million lifetime mil
83 DeltaL1011man : if it doesn't mean anything why is it in the contract? I understand its pretty easy it get 321 rates put into the contract but if Delta really though
84 LACA773 : With so many aging 757s flying around and no real replacement for it in the works with the same or very close specs, would there be even a remote chan
85 OyKIE : But we redo our kitchen and bathroom every 10 years or so. Why would an airplane interior be any different? Even though a person do not know the diff
86 Post contains links and images Keesje : http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/archives/154674.asp Maybe, Airbus is expanding the A320s maintenance program to 90,000 cycles / 180,000h / 60 yrs
87 1337Delta764 : As always, these statements made by CEOs should be taken with a grain of salt. I know you are a big Airbus fan, so you have the right to believe what
88 Transpac787 : That proves absolutely nothing. Do you think Anderson would make a public announcement about how Delta will remain loyal to their [illegal] gentleman
89 BMI727 : I'm not sure I'd say Boeing has an edge necessarily, but I don't see what they will do to lose DL's loyalty. DL ordering Airbus is definitely in the
90 1337Delta764 : Of course not; I don't think any airline CEO would. Anderson is simply trying to get better prices from Boeing.
91 LongHauler : Your points make excellent sense to an "airliner" but not an airline executive, and certainly not to someone buying a ticket. Let's face it, time and
92 Lufthansa : No they wouldn't. But I do think a few actions to date have proven that they will indeed be an opportunistic purchaser. Case in point. They picked up
93 Lufthansa : Also I think you all forget... the Gentleman's Agreement was produced in a very different situation. Delta now has much much much more weight to throw
94 Jetlanta : Alright, settle down people. The Boeing vs. Airbus debate is not going to be solved here. At the end of the day, whatever past agreements Delta has ha
95 Mayor : Just to throw this out there, in perspective......when I hired on with DL in '71, our fleet size was 170+ and that included the L-100s. Today, includi
96 Cubsrule : Not directly, no. But I would argue that one of the reasons that NW doesn't catch a lot of flak in the media for flying forty year old airplanes arou
97 OyKIE : I believe we agree on this, LongHauler. My initial reply to BMI727 was that even though it is possible to refurbish the 767, few airlines tend to do
98 MSYPI7185 : The 321 can run those route easily even with unfavorable winds. But I am agreeing with your point that we are not talking about many Transcons here.
99 Transpac787 : 767-300A's and 757-200's north of 20 years old. N804NW is 6 years old. If DL sees a need for the A321, they would have pre-negotiated it. Same as how
100 DeltaL1011man : Keesje, the only part of the contract that is gone is the buy only Beoing part. DL,CO and AA still have a contract for a number of airplanes till 202
101 DocLightning : I'm aware of what Anderson has been saying. However, if he actually goes and buys A, then when he orders his next B order, he gets told to take a num
102 TISTPAA727 : DL has an insane number of aircraft right now and is working through right-sizing the fleet/route matching. Right now, there just isn't a need for new
103 MSYPI7185 : By this logic DL would have never purchased the 777, because it was not pre-negotiated. I will agree that AT THIS TIME DL sees no need, but never say
104 Cubsrule : The rest of your post makes good sense, but this just isn't true. The 757 has quite a bit more range than the 321 (either variant).
105 Jetlanta : Doc, this scenario may seem plausible in the "fantasy" world of aircraft sales, but when the world's largest carrier wants to talk, they aren't going
106 Cubsrule : Agreed, but isn't it fair to take a less severe form of his assertion - that Delta has less leverage than it would otherwise have with Boeing after p
107 Jetlanta : In some scenarios, sure. But it depends on if Airbus (or Boeing) felt that they had been "played". For example, Airbus can offer DL a sweet deal on 3
108 BMI727 : Not necessarily. Though Boeing cannot enforce the exclusivity portion of the deal, DL is still entitled to whatever concessions Boeing gives them. Su
109 Jetlanta : The resolution of the 787 situation is FAR more impactful than a 12 year old, non-enforceable deal that was negotiated by completely different people
110 OA412 : 100% agree. Boeing has a lot to lose by 'punishing' DL for not abiding by a gentleman's agreement.
111 SLCUT2777 : In the end however, I don't see DL getting any significant numbers of narrow-bodied aircraft over the next 3 years or so, even as they cut capacity b
112 Post contains images Keesje : I think Boeing will look ahead & welcome any Delta RFP. They'll never tell them to pull a number or move them back. They want to sell them hundreds o
113 Alphaomega : Maybe so, and it may be a good compliment to the NW birds, but DL has never been a great Airbus customer or prospect customer for Airbus, and they ma
114 Burkhard : New Delta will be a big costumor in the longer future, and a small one the next years. A321-200 and B737-900ER could be a partial replacement of the 7
115 Lufthansa : "up till now" is the important part. Everybody's got to remember that basically the old northwest and the old delta are both gone. A new company is a
116 Keesje : I think many people think the old Delta is the new Delta. That's not a reality. The good part of the network, bank account, fleet, boss, strategy and
117 Jetlanta : Alpha, the days when this was true are LONG gone. A310's were removed because the economics were poor. That isn't true for most of Airbus' product li
118 Jetlanta : This is true to an extent, but if you head down to the Delta G.O. today, MOST of the people running the show were running Delta before the merger. In
119 Mayor : Not sure if DL actually ordered these, themselves or if they were an existing order by PA that DL just assumed.
120 Jetlanta : Delta did.
121 DocLightning : Remember how AA suddenly had some early production slots for the 787? If AA had a long history of buying Airbus, I doubt they could have scored those
122 Mayor : Have AA's pilots okayed this, yet? I thought the purchase of the 787's was contingent on the pilots agreeing with it.
123 DeltaL1011man : Didn't CX take number 33? or are they still at 32? which got replaced by Boeing 767-300ERs as Delta figured out the A310s were POS. really? What is r
124 Jetlanta : But Doc, AA bought a bazillions MD-80's and a bunch of A300's and Boeing STILL negotiated the "exclusive" deal with them in the mid-90's. At the end
125 Post contains images Keesje :   The company / network strategies are NWA for a big part. I've seen clear NWA tactics in Delta's strategy. And the boss in a straight NWA guy and i
126 Bobnwa : Don't you think it would be better to give more experienced adult type answers?
127 Mayor : The A-310-200s may have been bad, but, as I recall, some of the newer -300s that PA had and the ones DL took delivery of were pretty good a/c. It was
128 NorCal : They didn't work out an A321 payscale with the pilots during the integration despite the fact they added other new types to the payscale that current
129 Jetlanta : Completely wrong. The network strategy begins and ends with Glenn Hauenstein. It is exactly the same as it was before the merger, they just have more
130 TISTPAA727 : LOL - it is funny how the thread turns. DL will buy what makes the most long-term financial sense for them. Anderson had to say DL will shop both man
131 Richierich : I have no doubt that DL will evaluate all contenders for any fleet purchase, as does any airline worth its salt. AA may be considered an all-Boeing a
132 BMI727 : I don't think that anyone has suggested that DL hasn't changed. But what has Boeing changed? What are they going to change now? Boeing isn't holding
133 MSYPI7185 : Thanks, but I ws referring to other earlier post that state falsely that the A321 cannot do transcon w/o fuel stops when winds are unfavorable. While
134 BMI727 : It isn't false. Airbus quotes the A321 as having a range of 3,050 nm and the A320 3,000 nm while Boeing says the 737-800 has a range of 3,060 nm. 737
135 Cubsrule : Ahh, I see. And in that case, you're absolutely right.
136 Airlinespotter : I was wondering who operates the largest fleet of A321 in the US? and the world?. thanks
137 Viscount724 : Largest current A321 operators according to Airbus website (aircraft in service, not including those on order). Have shown all airlines with at least
138 OA412 : You seem really hung up on the idea of airlines needing to stop for fuel on transcons. If it were a statisctically significant number, US airlines wo
139 MSYPI7185 : US transcon routes with A321's that I have worked from CLT and other US transcon from PHL. CLT-SEA 1992nm - 1058nm short of max range CLT-LAX 1849nm
140 Cubsrule : B6 generally has to stop for fuel out of BUR if the short runway is in use, but that's a runway performance issue, not a range issue (and, given that
141 KGAIflyer : The last expert I heard from who **swore** on his mother's grave and personal expertise that the A321 was a transcom problem always making tech stops
142 BMI727 : Airlines must account for even insignificant things like this. I never said it was every day, just a few days a year but airlines still have to take
143 1337Delta764 : I don't know why this discussion became an argument about the A321 and its (in)ability to do transcon routes, however, I don't think think this is rea
144 Post contains images Keesje : Have AA and CO reviewed RFPs from Airbus?[/quote] Significantly lower operating costs. Agree however there is no clear 757 replacement in production.
145 727forever : There is one A330 and another going to storage next week according to another thread. I have also read that there are 3 767-300ERs and 2 767-300Ds in
146 BMI727 : I'm not a hater. I just pointed out a factor, which I mentioned (several times) is not even a big factor. I never said that they were always making t
147 Viscount724 : 8-abreast on a 767 must be the most inhumane seating layout of all, much worse than even 10-abreast on a 777. Also, Britannia changed its name to Tho
148 Manfredj : And they also have 737 pools in place. Grow the 737 ones or the airbus ones. I don't think this is anything of consequence. The "look" of the interio
149 Cubsrule : If an airplane is more fuel efficient than the other option on 90 or 95 percent of the routes on which it will be deployed, I'd imagine that is signi
150 Keesje : OEW 787-3 : 223,000 lb (101,000 kg) OEW 767-200 : 176,650 lb (80,130 kg) Despite Boeing launching the aircraft I think most have reached the conclusi
151 Carls : What make you believe that Airbus is not wiling to do the same? Using the A. Net mantra DL won't be able to refuse a couple of free airliners..... I
152 727forever : The 767-300ER carries more people and burns about 1500 lbs/hr less initially and even less hours later. The larger reason was, DL had all kinds of pr
153 AirNZ : Actually, what you mean is that A321's can perform MOST 757 missions more economically. There is quite a difference between 'some' and 'most'.
154 727forever : There are two kinds of costs. Fixed costs are the ones that you have to pay whether the airplane flies or not such as the aquisition or lease cost, i
155 NicoEDDF : Why, when the A321 is brand new and the 757 is 15+ years old?
156 Keesje : That's not objective. You cannot compare the purchasing price of an old 757 with a brand new A321. You have to include total costs, costs per flight
157 BMI727 : The 787-3 is a larger plane, which means more seats to fill, but the fuel burn of a 767-200 would probably be about the same, if not more. I don't th
158 Post contains links Transpac787 : Um... yes you can. Updated: Aircraft Values, And Lease Pricing (by LAXintl Mar 13 2009 in Civil Aviation) In *direct* operating costs, yes. When you
159 Cubsrule : Yes, as their business model features pretty low utilization. For a carrier like DL, that might be different. I'm not sure I'm ready to say anything
160 MSNDC9 : In terms of range, for some the A-321 and 739 may not have enough capacity: Airline/Daily 757 Flights/757 Required/A321 or 737-9 Capable American Air
161 727forever : Thanks for the link. Brand new is not always better. Airplanes must be maintained regardless of age. Unlike an automobile, airplanes break whether th
162 MSNDC9 : Its also a dead plane. You'll see a 757 replacement before you'll see a 787-3.
163 NicoEDDF : Come on... Airplanes break definitely in every stage of age, but not as frequently! A brand new aircraft will have only brand new parts installed. Th
164 727forever : First, we are not talking about crash rates here. If you would like to, the A320 family and the 757 have a very close fatal accident rate. As of Dece
165 Cubsrule : NW employees have told me, and my fairly extensive experience confirms, that the -9s have better dispatch reliability than the 32xs.
166 LACA773 : I've always wondered why B6 never exchanged some of the 320s on order for 319s. During the Winter months they wouldn't run into a problem if they wer
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