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AA Still The Largest US International Airline?  
User currently offlineSeatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 778 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 7610 times:

Is AA still the largest U.S. based airline in terms of international pax carried? I know they were at one time, but didn't know if the new Delta overtook them.

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineQqflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2296 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 7573 times:

The most recent DOT statistics published showed AA carried more international pax than any other U.S. carrier. So, yes, AA is, at the moment, the largest int'l airline in terms of pax carried. The statistics can be found at the link below:
http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/20...43_09/html/bts043_09.html#table_15

[Edited 2009-09-28 12:19:29]


The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineTharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1865 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 7485 times:



Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 1):
The most recent DOT statistics published showed AA carried more international pax than any other U.S. carrier. So, yes, AA is, at the moment, the largest int'l airline in terms of pax carried. The statistics can be found at the link below:
http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/20...le_15

For questions such as these, I think it's now appropriate to add DL and NW together.


User currently offlineQQflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2296 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7413 times:



Quoting Tharanga (Reply 2):
For questions such as these, I think it's now appropriate to add DL and NW together.

I don't entirely disagree, but the DOT does. Until DL and NW's operating certificates are merged, the DOT will look at them separately. The following is a direct quote, copied and pasted from the report: "American Airlines carried more international passengers than any other U.S. carrier." You can find that below the headline "Top Airlines."



The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7365 times:

The only problem w/ AA's claim is that revenue production in the airline industry is not defined by passengers carried but by revenue passenger miles flown. RPMs are THE unit of production in the airline industry.

By that measure, DL surpassed AA as the largest int'l carrier last summer without even including NW.

AA carries alot of passengers to the Caribbean and Latin America and that has allowed them to say they carry more int'l passengers.

By the same token, WN is the largest single domestic carrier but no one considers WN the largest airline in the US domestic market.


User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3345 posts, RR: 35
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7340 times:



Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 3):
I don't entirely disagree, but the DOT does. Until DL and NW's operating certificates are merged, the DOT will look at them separately. The following is a direct quote, copied and pasted from the report: "American Airlines carried more international passengers than any other U.S. carrier." You can find that below the headline "Top Airlines."

Well lets just rephrase the question to which U.S. airline company is the largest. As a wholly-owned subsidiary of Delta Air Lines, Inc., NW would be included.

The whole exercise is silly anyway.


User currently offlineTharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1865 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7206 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
The only problem w/ AA's claim is that revenue production in the airline industry is not defined by passengers carried but by revenue passenger miles flown. RPMs are THE unit of production in the airline industry.

By that measure, DL surpassed AA as the largest int'l carrier last summer without even including NW.

AA carries alot of passengers to the Caribbean and Latin America and that has allowed them to say they carry more int'l passengers.

By the same token, WN is the largest single domestic carrier but no one considers WN the largest airline in the US domestic market.

I think both passenger and passenger-miles are worth presenting, as they both give useful information.

It must simply be accepted that questions like "what is the largest airline" will not have simple unambiguous answers.

I sometimes wish the DOT also provided supplementary statistics where say, Delta Connection pax numbers were lumped in with DL, and so on. It'd be nice to see a quick snapshot of how big the brands are.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7057 times:

Quoting Seatback (Thread starter):
Is AA still the largest U.S. based airline in terms of international pax carried

Is a passenger Miami - Nassau passenger weighed the same as a Detroit - Osaka passenger?

[Edited 2009-09-28 13:55:30]

User currently offlineJBAirwaysFan From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1034 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7025 times:

This will change very shortly once DL and NW are merged under a single operating certificate.


In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7002 times:



Quoting Tharanga (Reply 6):
I think both passenger and passenger-miles are worth presenting, as they both give useful information

They are useful pieces of info but they are not used to measure the size of airlines.
Banks are measured by the number of assets held, not customers served. There are many industry specific measures of size in addition to revenue which is the universal standard for all companies.

Quoting Tharanga (Reply 6):
I sometimes wish the DOT also provided supplementary statistics where say, Delta Connection pax numbers were lumped in with DL, and so on.

Delta connection statistics are not lumped in with DL on DOT reports. The DL Conx carriers are independent when it comes to DOT reporting.


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6103 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6926 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 9):
There are many industry specific measures of size in addition to revenue which is the universal standard for all companies.

Revenue is not a universal standard for deciding who is the biggest of them all. For instance I can measure the size of an airline via ASMs, RPMs, total revenue, number of aircraft flown, number of passengers flown ect... All are correct units of measure and depending on which metric I use I may, or may not, get the same answer every time to the question of "Who is the biggest of them all?"

In terms of banks, assets is one way to measure the size of a bank another is branches in operation, number of depositors, ect.

There is no right or wrong way to measure the size of a company.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineTharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1865 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6875 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 9):
Delta connection statistics are not lumped in with DL on DOT reports. The DL Conx carriers are independent when it comes to DOT reporting.

right, that was my point. I wish the DOT added supplementary statistics where the regionals are lumped in.

Quoting United1 (Reply 10):

There is no right or wrong way to measure the size of a company.

I agree. Just because pax-miles has often been used for airlines doesn't mean that's the only reasonable way to do it. Why not pax? Why not market capitalisation? Why not fleet size? Why not revenue? It comes down to what aspect interests you.


User currently offlineQqflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2296 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6477 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
The only problem w/ AA's claim is that revenue production in the airline industry is not defined by passengers carried but by revenue passenger miles flown.

This isn't AA's claim, but rather according to the DOT. If you reference the link I provided above, the report specifically states AA carried more international passengers than any other. Which is what the OP asked. That's all.



The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineBeakerLTN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2009, 297 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5334 times:

I've often wondered about these claims. AA may move a lot of people, but like the other US carriers their route network isn't really that big. It would be like saying Ryanair is a bigger (mostly) international carrier than Emirates - ok they carry more people 59mil, vs emirate's 22mil, but that's only half the story. I would suggest a better indicator can only be made with the use of a formula which takes into account several key factors. These factors could be:

-Capacity (seats offered per day of normal schedule)
-Passengers flown (per day, averaged)
-Number of destinations (multiple visits to one destination counted as multiple desitnations*)
-Average distance of international destinations

By factoring these you could determine who is truly the 'largest' US (or other) international airline.

*eg, if an airline flies 3 times a day to airlinersville, then this counts as 3 destinations

...just looking into this, perhaps passenger kilometers might actually be the better guage.



300/319/320/321/330/732/733/734/73G/738/744/772/77W/146/EMB135/EMB145
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4405 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5293 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 7):
Is a passenger Miami - Nassau passenger weighed the same as a Detroit - Osaka passenger?

[

Most of the time it will even weight more, but in this statistic yes. So I continue to not believe in any statistics I didn't manipulate myself.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4975 times:



Quoting BeakerLTN (Reply 13):
By factoring these you could determine who is truly the 'largest' US (or other) international airline.

American Eagle/Executive operates up to 19 daily flights between MIA and the Bahamas, plus MIA-CUN 4x daily, MIA-GCM 3x daily, MIA-KIN 3x daily, MIA-MBJ 3x daily, MIA-PAP 3x daily, MIA-PLS 3x daily, MIA-SDQ 4x daily etc. That's 42 daily international flights alone from one AA hub and just a fraction of AA's international flights to the Caribbean. Let alone, AA's flights to Central and South America.


User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4858 times:

Largest in.......pax boardings?
Largest in ......international cities served?
Largest in ......international routes?
Largest in.......fleet?

My guess is you want boardings. It will be DL after the merger is 100percent complete, no arguments anywhere.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3596 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4804 times:



Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 12):
This isn't AA's claim, but rather according to the DOT. If you reference the link I provided above, the report specifically states AA carried more international passengers than any other. Which is what the OP asked. That's all.

The OP's question also specifically referenced the "New Delta" which would mean the combined DL/NW operations, not keeping them seperate as you tried to do in replies 1 and 3.

To answer the OP's original question.

Delta (with NW) is now the largest USA based international carrier.


User currently offlineAAflyguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 362 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4557 times:

Seems to me the "new" DL would be tops in at least three of those categories, because it will soon officially digest an airline a little over half its size, and the combined international network is a formidable force, even in the slightly downsized form in the current economic environment. I believe DL serves over 100 international markets, though, which is mindboggling considering how much smaller its footprint was a decade ago, or even 5-years ago.

User currently offlineTharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1865 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4544 times:



Quoting BeakerLTN (Reply 13):
I would suggest a better indicator can only be made with the use of a formula which takes into account several key factors. These factors could be:

-Capacity (seats offered per day of normal schedule)
-Passengers flown (per day, averaged)
-Number of destinations (multiple visits to one destination counted as multiple desitnations*)
-Average distance of international destinations

By factoring these you could determine who is truly the 'largest' US (or other) international airline.

*eg, if an airline flies 3 times a day to airlinersville, then this counts as 3 destinations

...just looking into this, perhaps passenger kilometers might actually be the better guage.


no need to combine them all in some arbitrary way - if you changed the weighting factors, you'd get different answers. If somebody asks an arbitrary question (what is the biggest airline), they should be asked which criteria they wish to use. In this case, the OP actually did specify number of international pax, so it's DL/NW.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6517 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3924 times:



Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 16):
My guess is you want boardings. It will be DL after the merger is 100percent complete, no arguments anywhere.
safe

Among the airlines themselves RPK or RPM's have traditionally been the measurement of comparison.


User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3747 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 7):
Is a passenger Miami - Nassau passenger weighed the same as a Detroit - Osaka passenger?

I guess it's all how you want to interpret the data. Breaking it down to a VERY simple example, let's say Delta offered three flights a day on all 767-300s with 250 seats to Europe, and AA offered 3 flights a day, all on 767-300s with 250 seats, to the Caribbean. Why would Delta be considered any larger than American? I think the numbers to go off of are either A) number of int'l flights (or seats) offered or B) number of passengers actually carried.


User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3345 posts, RR: 35
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3733 times:



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 21):
Why would Delta be considered any larger than American? I think the numbers to go off of are either A) number of int'l flights (or seats) offered or B) number of passengers actually carried.

Because generally longer routes generate more revenue. Company size across all industries is generally considered to be revenue-based. Look at the Fortune 500.


User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1380 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3527 times:

Is CO still #1 in terms of Int'l destinations served?


“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3244 times:



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 21):
I guess it's all how you want to interpret the data. Breaking it down to a VERY simple example, let's say Delta offered three flights a day on all 767-300s with 250 seats to Europe, and AA offered 3 flights a day, all on 767-300s with 250 seats, to the Caribbean. Why would Delta be considered any larger than American?

Because DL is offering more than 3 times the capacity and would probably need 3 aircraft to operate 3 daily flights to Europe while AA could likely handle their 3 daily Caribbean flights with 1 to 2 aircraft depending on the routes operated. Revenue passenger miles/kilometers (total revenue passengers times the total miles/km flown) is the best statistic when comparing airline size, although total revenue is also a useful statistic.

Total passenger revenue divided by RPM/RPK = yield
RSM/RSK divided by ASM/ASK (available seat miles/km) = load factor


25 Letsgetwet : I most certainly do,
26 WorldTraveler : REVENUE IS the single factor that is used to rank the size of companies around the world. Period. Population and geography are used to rank the size
27 Tharanga : "what the US needs"? "adequate"? What does that even mean? "Adequate" for what? This is an emotional judgment of what the "largest airline" should lo
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