Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
How Are IND-MKE Bookings On FL Going?  
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4566 posts, RR: 18
Posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4513 times:

I believe the start of IND-MKE on FL is just a week away. Does anyone know how bookings are going so far? All I can check is the seat map and what I'm seeing so far is the typically blocked off seats on airtran.com. I don't see anything that indicates much has been sold. First flight is Oct 8th I think. If anyone can check and post some results I'd appreciate it. My guess is that this route will perform horribly.


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4509 times:



Quoting Indy (Thread starter):
I believe the start of IND-MKE on FL is just a week away. Does anyone know how bookings are going so far? All I can check is the seat map and what I'm seeing so far is the typically blocked off seats on airtran.com. I don't see anything that indicates much has been sold. First flight is Oct 8th I think. If anyone can check and post some results I'd appreciate it. My guess is that this route will perform horribly.

Well remember on AirTran, most passengers select their seats at check-in, so the seat map will appear wide open, giving those who pay the extra fee the widest selection of seats to choose from. I remember flying MCO-ATL on FL a few years ago and checking in right at the 24 hour mark, and thinking I was going to be one of only a few people on the plane because the seat map was wide-open. Turned out to be a full flight.


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4566 posts, RR: 18
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4497 times:



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 1):
I remember flying MCO-ATL on FL a few years ago and checking in right at the 24 hour mark, and thinking I was going to be one of only a few people on the plane because the seat map was wide-open. Turned out to be a full flight.

Thats kind of why I hoped someone on here had the access to check the loads. What do you make of the fact that all fare levels are still available including the web special fare just a week out?



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineAtlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4424 times:

First day is kinda low but i guess to be expected. Numbers will pick up as the route gets established.  Smile


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
User currently offlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1541 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4258 times:

I hate to have any bad FL news but this route is going to do just awful. The advanced booking are not good at all. I don't know how the fleet logistics would work but I'd really rather see IND-BOS instead of this route. I also never understood why FL is starting this route in early October which is the worst time of the year. MKE-PIT looks better but I'm not sure how long PIT or IND will last out of MKE because it doesn't look promising so far and there are better places to use the planes.


717,72S,732/3/4/5/G/8/9,744,752/3,763/4,772/3,D9S/5,M8/90,D10,319/20/21,332/3,388,CR2/7/9,EM2,ER4,E70/75/90,SF3,AR8
User currently offlineBuddys747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 527 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4156 times:



Quoting FL787 (Reply 4):
. MKE-PIT looks better but I'm not sure how long PIT or IND will last out of MKE because it doesn't look promising so far and there are better places to use the planes.

I wonder why PIT wouldn't do ok? Is it because of flight times? I would imagine for central and west coast MKE would be easier to connect to than ATL. Just my guess though.


User currently offlineTZTriStar500 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1452 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4108 times:

Well Indy, you started this thread over 3 years ago with a prediction of this route which I disagreed with then:

My Prediction: FL To Start IND-MKE (by Indy Jul 15 2006 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=2880400&searchid=2882336&s=Indy#ID2882336

However, I am also skeptical that it will be successful. My take is that its more of an aircraft positioning flight with some incremental revenue thrown in by maybe getting about 20-40 pax on each flight.

I have family in MKE and drive mostly, but hope to try it out soon. I'm just not sure how long it will last. Its certainly better than the YX ERJ135 or Skywest CRJ. I flew a YX (Skywest) CRJ about a year ago IND-MKE and the experience left a bit to be desired. The F/A offered nothing to drink, not even water and then passed out a cold pre-packaged cookie that was worse than a vending machine. Oh how, YX service had fallen. Maybe RAH can do better.



35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4566 posts, RR: 18
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4065 times:



Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 6):
Well Indy, you started this thread over 3 years ago with a prediction of this route which I disagreed with then:

Believe me I thought about that thread when posting this  Smile. If you are operating a hub you really have to run routes like this. The problem is that now isn't really the time to build a hub and MKE certainly isn't the location. You need the feed and are there really that many places FL flies to out of MKE that people cannot get to from IND nonstop? This route may have been best saved for addition a year or two later when the economy has hopefully recovered and there were more connection opportunities.

FL is starting some strange routes. Orlando to Key West is a good example. The number of people traveling that route every day is horrible. According to faremeasure.com 11 people a day fly that route. The difference between MKE-IND and this route is that a great opportunity for feed exists in MCO. And the very existence of the route will stimulate demand.

FL really killed the timing of the MKE-IND service. Wrong month. Wrong year.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineStlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9367 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4054 times:

i would suspect Indianapolis - Milwaukee is more about Indianapols - Milwaukee to Seattle, Denver, and Minneapolis than anything else.


if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineMkeflyer717 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 431 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3943 times:

I have a feeling that PIT-MKE will perform better than IND-MKE. However, both flights are timed well for connections in MKE to the west coast so maybe bookings will gradually pick up. I noticed on certain days FL is placing the 737 on IND-MKE. I found that interesting since I originally thought it would be all 717s.

STL-MKE on the other hand seems to be doing the worst of the more recently added routes.. does anyone have info on those loads by chance? The MSP-MKE service appears to be doing relatively decent. Occassionally some flights are near 90-100% full; usually the early arrival into MKE tends to be more consistently full which obviously indicates those pax who are making connections.

If FL is still committed to making MKE a full-pledge hub (which they have directly said in the past) I think it would be in their best interest to begin to connect cities in the Eastern Great Lakes and throughout the North East to MKE to feed connections to the west coast. For instance cities already existing in Airtran's network that are east of MKE but still west of BWI such as FNT, CMH, DAY, BUF, and ROC could all probably benefit because they for the most part lack service to the west coast. For the previously listed cities it just makes more sense to funnel connecting pax through a city like MKE rather than ATL which clearly goes out of the way and adds to the total trip time (Im just talking about FL here, obviously passengers would still fly other carriers and connect in places like DTW, ORD, MSP, but if the fares are right I don't see why FL couldn't lure enough pax to support at least a 1x flight to MKE much like they will be attempting with PIT/IND)

Basically, my point is by adding PIT/IND-MKE it doesn't seem any more unreasonable to add smaller cities. If in the long run FL is really interested in enhancing their west coast service, MKE currently offers the best-suited option in my opinion to run traffic through a northern location. The airtran presence has been growing in MKE and as far as gate space goes for additional flights, I would not be surprised if FL somehow acquires all 8 gates of the concourse C hammerhead by having US relocate into the stem perhaps where F9 will be vacating.

[Edited 2009-09-29 22:26:35]


Avoid the Chicago ORDeal!! Fly MKE!
User currently offlinePilotfox From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 552 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3902 times:



Quoting Mkeflyer717 (Reply 9):
I would not be surprised if FL somehow acquires all 8 gates of the concourse C hammerhead by having US relocate into the stem perhaps where F9 will be vacating.

FL is now using Frontier's old gate C14, they worked a deal out together.


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4566 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3877 times:



Quoting Mkeflyer717 (Reply 9):
Basically, my point is by adding PIT/IND-MKE it doesn't seem any more unreasonable to add smaller cities. If in the long run FL is really interested in enhancing their west coast service, MKE currently offers the best-suited option in my opinion to run traffic through a northern location. The airtran presence has been growing in MKE and as far as gate space goes for additional flights, I would not be surprised if FL somehow acquires all 8 gates of the concourse C hammerhead by having US relocate into the stem perhaps where F9 will be vacating.

My opinion is that the MKE experiment isn't going to last for FL. You will likely see the loss of spokes like IND, PIT, BWI, STL, LGA, MSP, etc. Without those you cannot justify all that west coast flying especially going up against YX/F9. Once a few of these routes start coming down the rest (minus MCO and ATL) will follow.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineAirport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3772 times:



Quoting Indy (Reply 11):

My opinion is that the MKE experiment isn't going to last for FL. You will likely see the loss of spokes like IND, PIT, BWI, STL, LGA, MSP, etc. Without those you cannot justify all that west coast flying especially going up against YX/F9. Once a few of these routes start coming down the rest (minus MCO and ATL) will follow.

It'll be a hard one to predict, that's for sure...the combination of F9/YX, if well managed and planned, could be one tough cookie, pardon the pun, but now they also have WN to contend with. I'm not convinced that MKE can handle all three carriers. If F9/YX can rebuild from what they once were and gain the heavy loyalty they used to have, I would also be unconvinced that WN will find success in MKE and I'd imagine that FL would also draw their flights back if YX regained the strength they once had on the market. But really it's a huge question mark that no one truly knows...this is certainly not a boring time to be following the US airline industry, that's for certain.


User currently offlineRumorboy From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3708 times:



Quoting Indy (Reply 11):
My opinion is that the MKE experiment isn't going to last for FL. You will likely see the loss of spokes like IND, PIT, BWI, STL, LGA, MSP, etc. Without those you cannot justify all that west coast flying especially going up against YX/F9. Once a few of these routes start coming down the rest (minus MCO and ATL) will follow.

I guess you forgot to add that the MKE operation is profitable. Here take a listen.

http://investor.airtran.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=64267&p=irol-audioArchives


User currently offlineSideflare75 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 613 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3683 times:



Quoting Rumorboy (Reply 13):
I guess you forgot to add that the MKE operation is profitable. Here take a listen.

Yes but will it be in the future once YX starts to try and take back some of the business that they handed FL with the pullbacks of 2008? I think that is why he said he is predicting that it won't work.

And of course there is WN to worry about as well.


User currently offlineRumorboy From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3648 times:



Quoting Sideflare75 (Reply 14):
Yes but will it be in the future once YX starts to try and take back some of the business that they handed FL with the pullbacks of 2008? I think that is why he said he is predicting that it won't work.

And of course there is WN to worry about as well.

With both Airtran and Southwest there I think the under dog will be YX. Why? 40% to 50% cost advantage. When YX reenters those routes do really think they will get the yields they did long ago? I think not. I don't think TV's, Cookies, WIFI and xm are going to make that much difference. Its going to be on price 90% time. In a few weeks YX for all practicle purposes won't even exist. They be like Fun jet and Apple vacations. Just the name will remain. Republic and Frontier will do all flying for them. The two lowest cost carriers in the industry against YX in MKE. Not good. JMHO.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6608 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3587 times:



Quoting Rumorboy (Reply 15):
Just the name will remain. Republic and Frontier will do all flying for them. The two lowest cost carriers in the industry against YX in MKE.

I think that depends on what type of aircraft are being used to compete with FL and WN. If RAH uses A319's to compete, they have a cost structure that is very competitive with FL and WN. If they use CRJ/ERJ/EMB170, then they will get in trouble.

I think there's only about a 50/50 chance FL will last at MKE. I think they've already been laying the groundwork for a move (back?) to IND should MKE fizzle.


User currently offlineSideflare75 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 613 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3556 times:



Quoting Rumorboy (Reply 15):
With both Airtran and Southwest there I think the under dog will be YX. Why? 40% to 50% cost advantage. When YX reenters those routes do really think they will get the yields they did long ago? I think not. I don't think TV's, Cookies, WIFI and xm are going to make that much difference. Its going to be on price 90% time. In a few weeks YX for all practicle purposes won't even exist. They be like Fun jet and Apple vacations. Just the name will remain. Republic and Frontier will do all flying for them. The two lowest cost carriers in the industry against YX in MKE. Not good. JMHO.

I see what you are saying but YX will not need to get the yields they did before. Their cost structure is nothing like it used to be and I read somewhere that Frontier's costs rival both FL and WN, so from a cost standpoint the game has changed here in MKE. Once all the synergies between YX and F9 are in place I think you will find a carrier with costs low enough to compete with either FL or WN especially given the brand awareness and loyalty here in MKE. People I talk to still consider YX to be the hometown airline, even after all that has happened, and who the current owners are. If they can add some more routes, create jobs and hire some people here, and get some positive press out of it, that will only help the public's perception.

It's definately going to be interesting.


User currently offlineBuddys747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 527 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3524 times:



Quoting Mkeflyer717 (Reply 9):

Good post. FL has enough of the major cities covered for the most part in MKE, so now they need to feed it with smaller cities in the NE. ABE and MDT would be good candidates with no competition, and it would give access to the FL network, which currently neither city has. Probably at some point some of the other cities that are newly started and only seeing MCO runs would possibly work, since they can't handle a DL/FL war to ATL.
It's too early I guess to tell on IND-MKE, they need to give it time.


User currently offlineMKENut From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 699 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3501 times:



Quoting Buddys747 (Reply 18):
FL has enough of the major cities covered for the most part in MKE, so now they need to feed it with smaller cities in the NE. ABE and MDT would be good candidates with no competition, and it would give access to the FL network

Do you think they will wait until spring to add more routes? I think fall and winter is a terrible time to be adding routes like you listed to MKE.


User currently offlineBuddys747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 527 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3468 times:



Quoting MKENut (Reply 19):
Do you think they will wait until spring to add more routes? I think fall and winter is a terrible time to be adding routes like you listed to MKE

I'm not sure. I know a lot of people from PA like to go skiing out west and to LAS. Even if they did offer it, it would be months down the road until they started it. I'm just guessing, and the fact that FL keeps saying they want MKE to be a hub, means they got to add routes somewhere. Why add routes that already see ATL and BWI service?


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4566 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3468 times:



Quoting Rumorboy (Reply 13):
I guess you forgot to add that the MKE operation is profitable. Here take a listen.

If you invest $1 million and you make a $100 profit you are profitable. Doesn't mean that you can't get a much greater return on investment somewhere else. Maybe you want to shoot for a $10,000 profit on a million dollars. Both are profitable but one is better than the other.

Then there is the fact that FL was able to operate relatively free of competition on some routes. That will be ending. MKE 2010 won't be the same place that MKE 2009 was.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineRumorboy From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3320 times:



Quoting Indy (Reply 21):
If you invest $1 million and you make a $100 profit you are profitable. Doesn't mean that you can't get a much greater return on investment somewhere else. Maybe you want to shoot for a $10,000 profit on a million dollars. Both are profitable but one is better than the other.

Its hard to argue when Airtran not only had better operating margins, but even there net margins are better than any other major carrier including SWA for the last 2 qtrs. Even the first qtr which over the years has always had a loss was excellent. Even in a recession. You are right about competition though, things will look a lot different in 2010 in MKE. If what you say is true that airtran is making a $100 in MKE than you must assume then the rest of there network is pretty strong with the margins they have had and can probably last for quite some time in MKE.


User currently offlineAtlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3299 times:

Operationally MKE ops run usually 10-15 minutes early and are rarely rarely late thanks to the spare planes that are there. MKE will be a base and it is proving to be successful. I know many want to see FL fail in MKE but honestly I dont see it happening. People are coming to the MKE routes and the MKE-Stl route is doing okay. MKE will be Crew base at some point in the sooner future which inevitably means there will be alot more flying and routes from there.


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5111 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3299 times:



Quoting Mkeflyer717 (Reply 9):


STL-MKE on the other hand seems to be doing the worst of the more recently added routes..

I think if FL can hold out on this route until the AA drawdawn of STL in early 2010, they have a decent shot at keeping this flight going. The connecting opportunities at MKE give STL travellers a few extra affordable options. On a side not, I never thought I'd see the day when STL was feeding MKE and not the other way around.



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
25 Post contains links Mariner : Midwest's costs are already starting to go down. The intention is to bring them to a similar level as the costs at Frontier. In August, Frontier's CA
26 Cubsrule : If the costs are comparable, they should do better than FL; it's rare for a nonstop competitor - any competitor - not to have a yield premium over FL
27 FL787 : Exactly. I really like FL's style of business which moves with the money. I don't see any easy profits in MKE in the near future. I would prefer FL t
28 Cubsrule : It's fantastic in the short run. I wonder, though, if they can go forever with the yield disadvantage they see pretty much systemwide, something to w
29 FlyPNS1 : As long as they can maintain costs below most of their competitors, the yield disadvantage won't hurt them. It won't be too hard to keep costs below
30 FL787 : They seem to do just fine. FL doesn't need to have a higher RASM than a competitor. Just a higher RASM than CASM. And you have to balance short-term
31 Cubsrule : Well, all LCCs of similar age will feel similar cost pressures, because newer staff and newer airplanes are usually a pretty big ingredient in keepin
32 FL787 : True. With regional carriers now running major airlines, CASM will probably need to go down even more. Well I hope FL has done everything they can to
33 FlyPNS1 : But on the few routes where WN and FL compete head to head, FL isn't at much of a disadvantage. And some of that disadvantage is largely due to WN be
34 Cubsrule : The coach product is, I think, basically a wash, but WN has no answer to FL's J cabin.
35 Knope2001 : ??? DoT stats from July 2009 (the most recently available month) for departures from Milwaukee. Departures less then 15 minutes late: AirTran 78.3% A
36 Atlwest1 : In terms of the on time performance for MKE I can only go by what I know. and for the record I wasn't bragging about the performance merely stating so
37 Buddys747 : What make's FL's coach so bad? I've flown the 712's and think they are fine and I'm 6'4". I really don't notice a differance in product compared to W
38 Pilotfox : FL here in MKE really got killed this last winter with deicing delays and gate issues. Planes would land and have to park somewhere for long periods o
39 MKENut : I hope MKE gets better at handling winter weather. Two years ago I had a flight canceled because of 6" of snow fall that fell throughout the day. It
40 CrAAzy : Was it a Midwest flight? If so it may have had nothing to do with MKE airport operations.
41 JBAirwaysFan : Once YXs 717s are gone, Midwest itself is gone, IMO. Someone mentioned that already in this forum, and I am agreeing 100%. Will the E190s be painted i
42 Post contains links Pilotfox : MKE has bought about 15-20 million dollars worth of new snow removal equipment in the last year. Last winter season was the first season this new equ
43 Gr8SlvrFlt : BTW, AirTran is now using eight gates full time in MKE. Looks like SEA is remaining year-round as well.
44 Indy : Isn't that a bit inefficient? That would be about 4 flights per gate per day. According to FL's website they use "Gates C22, C23, C24, and C25". The o
45 Atlwest1 : They have 6 gates that are theres and they are getting the Frontier gate. I believe the gate they park one of the spares at is common use though I thi
46 Gr8SlvrFlt : I guess full-time was a poor choice of words. What I mean is AirTran is using eight gates that no one else is using. Six regular gates (C20 - C25) plu
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
How Are Loads In TLH On Coex/NWlink posted Sat Mar 5 2005 20:12:01 by Clrd4t8koff
How Are Bombardier's Plans For New Aircraft Going? posted Sun Feb 6 2005 19:19:58 by BALandorLivery
How Are Unaccompanied Children Handled On Planes? posted Fri Jan 2 2004 02:14:46 by F9Fan
How Are FL Loads @ IND? posted Mon Nov 14 2005 05:27:17 by Indy
Article On FL In MKE posted Mon Mar 9 2009 11:46:14 by Legacytravel
FL's Plans For IND, MKE, LAS? posted Thu Sep 6 2007 05:24:46 by DeltaDAWG
Bmi - How Long Can They Carry On The Way They Are? posted Sat Feb 24 2007 16:36:23 by Demoose
How Accurate Are Aircraft Types Shown On Booking posted Mon Feb 5 2007 18:58:17 by Cchan
AKL And BNE - How Are They Going For BR? posted Fri Dec 22 2006 06:53:44 by Planemanofnz
SFO-IND On FL Cancelled? posted Thu Nov 2 2006 17:52:42 by Xpfg