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Airbus A320 Gets New Winglets  
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 37094 times:

The Airbus A321 will be the first family member to receive the upgrade, increasing the US transcontinental range to be more competitive with the Boeing 737-900 and to target the Boeing 757 fleet, a prevalent aircraft in the US legacy carrier operation. American, Continental, Delta, Northwest and United airlines all have large 757 fleets.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...2862/a320-winglets-on-the-way.html



A choice has not been made between the 2 variants, a decision will be made public soon.

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMacc From Austria, joined Nov 2004, 1072 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 37017 times:

interesting thing.... no images of the sharklets availablle, and no news about which of the disigns will be chosen...


strange piece of information...



I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 564 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 36977 times:

Interesting considering all the posts on here that are negative on the 737-900 and that Airbus wants to match it with the 321.

User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9664 posts, RR: 68
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 36711 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

My mistake  Smile

Back in May they had expected a decision in "4-6 weeks" so I thought this was old news.

Any idea what the delay has been?


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7089 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 36481 times:



Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
increasing the US transcontinental range

Looks like that has something to do with UA wanting to replace older 757s



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineKennyk From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 482 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 35586 times:

I wonder if the chosen winglets will be available as a retrofit or for new build aircraft only? I Think most probably new builds only.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21580 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 35472 times:

A real benefit of these in the USA would be performance out of places like BUR and SNA, where the winglets would allow for a higher TOW, meaning more usable fuel, meaning better payloads transcon out of these airports for A320s.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 35303 times:

Sharklets is a very funny term. I hope we'll get some pictures of them.

User currently offlineR2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2771 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 34301 times:

I'll believe it when I see it, because Airbus has already tested several winglet designs in the past without success. If this does happen however, then it would mean that the recently tested AP winglets proved a to be a good design that worked with the A320's wing.

However, I'm surprised at the mention of sharklets. That design hasn't even been flight tested yet, it seems premature to already be considering it as an option.

A 2-4% fuel burn improvement is a welcome upgrade, but won't quite put the A321 into 757 territory (although it will slightly eat away at it). An A321WL would still not be able to do transatlantic, but would at least be more comfortable doing US transcon than it is now.

These winglets could also be welcomed by airlines operating A320Fam a/c on longer routes, too, like Western EU - Russia or UK/northern EU - Canary Islands.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 33162 times:

Several variants were tested in the last few years.

December 2008


July 2006


April 2006


I guess bigger more efficient wing lets require structural strenghtening making them less suitable for retrofits. After innitial testing probably designs were adjusted & windtunneled and now look good. The next one to be seen on A320 proto will probably be close to the final design.


User currently offlineScipio From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 925 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 32746 times:

Since the A380 has essentially the same wingfences as the A320, would it too get 2-4% more efficient if these wingfences were replaced by a scaled-up version of the new A320 winglets or sharklets?

If so, that is a tantalizing prospect...


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31383 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 31513 times:
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The A321 can't take pallets, either, and the AKH container can't be interlined with any non-A320 family model. I also imagine most A321's are bulk-loaded just like 757s are.

I'm in agreement with you. Keesje, that most missions under 4500km are better served by the A321-200 and 737-900ER. However, when you need long legs or strong performance, when it comes to narrowbodies, you still can't beat a 757 and that will keep the model popular with at least one niche, especially with the winglets adding 400km of range and reducing fuel consumption by 5%.


User currently offlineTerryb99 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 30645 times:

So what has changed since back in 2006?

Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s (by Terryb99 Oct 6 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Are fuel prices high enough now that the added weight to strengthen the wing is now worth it?


User currently offlineLACA773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4064 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 29665 times:
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For Airbus to upgrade the 321 to specs of a 757 wouldn't they have to develop a new wing and landing gear box to hold a heavier aircraft and engines? How long would that take them to do.

If Boeing is to up the performance of the 73G series, wouldn't they too have to develop a new wing and gear box so that they can put more efficent, powerful engines on these birds? As one said, it will be difficult for Boeing to use a more powerful, advanced engine since the 73G sits so close to the ground.
What's the height difference between the A320 & 73G series'?


User currently offlineVirgin747lgw From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 24836 times:

surely Airbus would prefer to use their own sharklets as they dont need to license the design off AP? however I think they need to get AP on board as their designs have done wonders on the 737/757, wouldnt an A330 winglet help close the gap on the 787?  scratchchin 

User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4409 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 24643 times:

For USA Transcon, Northern Europe to Canaries , Central Europe to Gulf Area, North America to South America, there are many routes which are just on the limit of the current A321-200. So every 100 miles more ranges opens new routes it can do with full load, and on all routes it can do it is a hot candidate. The corner the 757 still has just gets smaller - and can be done by enough existing late 757 for indeed a decade or more.

The increased range only slightly affects economics, I read an A321-200 needs about 50l more than an A321-100 per hour.


User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 22884 times:

I'm not sure I like whose winglets. They look like the ones on the 737 family.

With Airbus being a pan -European company you'd think they'd pass any new designs past the Italians for approval. It's the one country that knows about industrial design.


User currently offlineN623JB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 20781 times:

I wonder if JetBlue would consider getting the A320 with winglets..also.I was thinking: Would the A320 be the same thing as the B757 with winglets? I was thinking that the winglets would give the A320 more range, which would be great.


Bring JetBlue To Mexico City! (TLC and/or MEX would be great)
User currently offlineCALTECH From Poland, joined May 2007, 2318 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 17111 times:

Where are the Airbus fans who said the A-320 wing was perfect, but then a improvement makes it more so. So the Boeing 737 NextGen wing is more perfect than the Airbus wing right now ?

The A-320 family will look good with winglets, just like the winglets on the A-330 have made it look real good.

Be interesting and nice to see retrofits done. And what JetBlue does.



UNITED We Stand
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13518 posts, RR: 100
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 16930 times:
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Quoting CALTECH (Reply 18):
Where are the Airbus fans who said the A-320 wing was perfect, but then a improvement makes it more so. So the Boeing 737 NextGen wing is more perfect than the Airbus wing right now ?

 rotfl  I like how you phrased this.

There is no perfect wing, as we all know. They all should have greater wingspans, but weight reasons cut that back. As we improve our materials... wings will improve. Not to mention new cross sections are still being invented.

Winglets improve the effective aspect ratio. Every wing out there is an 'engineering compromise' that could have been better if certain technology was more mature...

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 18):

Be interesting and nice to see retrofits done. And what JetBlue does.

 checkmark  and  checkmark 

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineAirport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 16844 times:

Yuck, I know looks aren't important in aviation since it all boils down to the almighty dollar, but to me an A320 without the standard wingtip fences is not an A320 at all. (I'm not speaking in terms of technicalities, I know that the first 320s didn't have them at all) That bird is an ugly duckling to me.  crazy 

User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7089 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 16797 times:



Quoting N623JB (Reply 17):
I wonder if JetBlue would consider getting the A320 with winglets.

I believe the initial idea of putting new winglets on the A320 came from Jetblue.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10227 posts, RR: 97
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 16605 times:
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Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 19):
They all should have greater wingspans, but weight reasons cut that back

Weight AND gate, I suspect.
I also suspect the economic paradigm was slightly different in the days when these planes were conceived, and the convenience of the smaller wingspan was at an acceptable price.
That, and as you rightly point out, the manufacturing advances made since then....

Rgds


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 16473 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 21):
Quoting N623JB (Reply 17):
I wonder if JetBlue would consider getting the A320 with winglets.

I believe the initial idea of putting new winglets on the A320 came from Jetblue.

A Jetblue A320 was fitted with 2 different seats of winglets for comparisons in 2006. This thread has been cleaned up like no thread before with the majority of posts gone via the reference post deleted procedure. It used to have this picture:



User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13518 posts, RR: 100
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 16144 times:
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Quoting Astuteman (Reply 22):
Weight AND gate,

 checkmark  As you note, it was a different economic situation. Optimizing for < $30/bbl oil results in a different aircraft than oil at ~$70/bbl.  Wink

Quoting Keesje (Reply 23):
A Jetblue A320 was fitted with 2 different seats of winglets for comparisons in 2006.

It was a wake up call, to me personally, when neither set was approved/accepted. It was more than a little bit surprising that neither set was not going to pay off back when oil prices were 'shooting to the moon.'

What I'm most excited about is the range improvement. Ok, its small, but if IAE would improve their engine too...  cloudnine 

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
25 EstorilM : Personally I think the 320 looks great with the winglets (presumably the AP variants? Who knows at this point..) with the Airbus livery. It's a shame
26 Jdevora : The winglet itself, last December they tested a new set of winglets designed by Aviation Partners, the same guys that created the 737-s winglets Chee
27 RayChuang : My guess right now is that JetBlue (B6) will be the primary customer right now for the A320 upgrade with winglets, all being installed as part of each
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