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Last A340 600 Customer - To Be Iberia?  
User currently offlineCorernagh14 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2009, 79 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 12846 times:

With the delivery of MSN1040 to Etihad on 23 September 2009 does anyone believe there will be any further orders for the A340 600 to Airbus . Looks to me as if the final orders/deliveries will be those presently deferred by Iberia for delivery in September 2010 (MSN0993) and the final two a/c in 2011? and they have two in storage at LDE at present. Anyone any better info . Perhaps Airbus may sell some of their inventory at an even lower price to simply move it - but who are the likely buyers if they did decide to do so??

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2779 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12808 times:

How many other A340s are on order and of what types? My understanding is that as long as the A330/340 line is open, any of the models could be ordered at anytime which makes me believe that we will see some occasional A340 orders for a while longer. Look at the 767 line as a precedent...

User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8500 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12698 times:
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IF an airline wants an A340 it could be built, the future is clearly in the A330. But why would any one in their right mind order an A340 today?

User currently offlineIrish251 From Ireland, joined Nov 2004, 982 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12587 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 2):
But why would any one in their right mind order an A340 today?

To expand an existing fleet of the type, maybe.


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8657 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12579 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 2):
IF an airline wants an A340 it could be built, the future is clearly in the A330. But why would any one in their right mind order an A340 today?

Performance, range, capacity, ETOPS... just off the top of my head  Smile


User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12459 times:



Quoting Irish251 (Reply 3):
To expand an existing fleet of the type, maybe.

Indeed, LH has placed at least 2 repeat orders for A346s for instance...

Some customers will never order the 77W for the simple reason it doesn't make sense for them to operate this type given their otherwise all Airbus fleet.

Obviously, the fact the A350 is going to be on the market 'soon' makes the outlook of many future A346 orders smaller every day, as well as the fact the economic downturn is making urgent stopgap orders less likely, but it's not like nobody would think about it if the conditions were right. If LH would need 5 more planes in this class tomorrow, they'd order additional A346s right away, without giving Boeing a call even.

Besides, the A340 is capable of some things the 77W can't and if you happen to need just that, it's the only plane available on the market, unless you want to have a look at the 748i, which seems dead upon arrival already.

VIP customers definitely love the comfort of having 4 engines iso 2 and some airlines want to avoid ETOPS restrictions, while another aspect could be the supperior hot and high performance of a quad: good luck getting more than just half the payload of an A346 out on a 77W from an airport at more than 5,000ft at 35°C for instance...if I am not mistaken, thus was an important issue for SA when they'd took the A346 over the 77W.

Who'll be taking the last A346 from the line?
I don't know, but given the fact the A340 is going to be offered for a long time still since its built on the same line as the A330 I'd dare to make this bolt statement: I am not sure the order for the last A346 has been placed yet.  Wink


User currently offlineCorernagh14 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2009, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 11575 times:



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 5):
Besides, the A340 is capable of some things the 77W can't and if you happen to need just that, it's the only plane available on the market, unless you want to have a look at the 748i, which seems dead upon arrival already.

I do not think LH will order any further A346 as they ordered the "dead" Bo 748i in December 2007 with their last 7 x A346 . LH got a great deal on the 7 A346 orders in Q4.2006 as VS deferred indefinitely and Emirates cancelled the A346's (18 order) in assembly. I can't see any rationale for any further A346 for LH unless there is an almighty problem with the Boeing 748i and Airbus / Leahy want to shift inventory to complete .

While it is true that the A340 is on the same assembly line the costs of small volumes in manufacturing etc etc are prohibtive - particularly for low prices. I can really only see bargain giveways to existing fleets - of which they are all mixed except IB , SAA (they recently decided NO and have purchased A330) , VS (A330's X 10) and LH.

I think again that the final A340 600 orders will be those from Iberia

Other thoughts ?? logic???


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 11452 times:

Well if you are a hot and high, cargo hungry airline, the A380 is to big & the 747-8i not an option.. They were working on some improvements. Who knows..


http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/2569774/

Seems the A340-600 is significantly better in payload from hot and high fields. From Zeke (Airbus / Boeing widebody experienced pilot)

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/229069/


User currently offlineCorernagh14 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2009, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9709 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 7):
Well if you are a hot and high, cargo hungry airline, the A380 is to big & the 747-8i not an option.. They were working on some improvements. Who knows..

those improvements were all shelved in mid 2006. There won't be any further improvements/ monies spent by Airbus unless it can be retroactively applied to those aircraft in service and reduce the maintenance costs and penalties in some of the airline guarantees from Airbus.

Yes - re hot and high - but the real volume airports of these size of aircraft are relatively limited JNB, Mexico City etc .


User currently offlineLVICS From Argentina, joined Aug 2006, 89 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9092 times:

Rumor has it that the Argentinian Government will order some 346 for AR. As Airbazar said, range, capacity and ETOPS are important issues for AR, taking into account their intercontinental destinations.
For the time being, only quads can fly from South America to New Zealand and Australia. 330s can't fly nonstop from EZE to FCO. Of course, a 777 can (actually, that's the aircraft used by AZ for that route), but given AR's current longhaul fleet (4 A342, owned, and 2 A343 + 3 B744, all of them leased), you can see that replacing those 744 for some 346 makes good sense for them.


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7633 posts, RR: 42
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9062 times:



Quoting Corernagh14 (Reply 8):
Yes - re hot and high - but the real volume airports of these size of aircraft are relatively limited JNB, Mexico City etc .

Airbus tried very hard to get AM to buy or lease A340s for its flights to MAD and CDG (and to open new European routes) since the 762ERs are too small and inconvenient for cargo, and the 763ERs (also inconvenient for cargo) have to take off with weight restrictions during the summer. In the end AM went for the 777-200ER, so that was a missed chance for Airbus. Interestingly, the only A340s that we get in MEX are IB's -300s and -600s all year long, with AF sending -300s seasonally in tandem with the 777-200ER.

Unless MX surprises us with an order for a couple of A340s for flights to Asia, I don't think we will see other carriers using this type at MEX.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineCV990Coronado From South Africa, joined Nov 2007, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8729 times:
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Hopefully it will stay in production for sometime. Up front in business I found it to be the quietest and smoothest ride in the sky. To see those four Rollers just makes me sleep well through the night.


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User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10241 posts, RR: 97
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8690 times:
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Quoting Slz396 (Reply 5):
Besides, the A340 is capable of some things the 77W can't

Interestingly, it will also be capable of some things that the A350-1000 can't do, and for the same reasons... a very small niche perhaps, and one you wouldn't design a plane for today, but as it already exists....  Smile

Quoting LVICS (Reply 9):
Rumor has it that the Argentinian Government will order some 346 for AR

On another thread someone suggested up to 10........

Rgds


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2037 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8601 times:

The A340-300 is very similar to the A330, whereas the A340-600 is significantly changed, and perhaps harder to combine into the A330 line, especialy with the Freighter model coming into production?

Perhaps the secondhand market will satisfy the demand for additional top up units instead?



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User currently offlineCorernagh14 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2009, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8129 times:



Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 13):
The A340-300 is very similar to the A330, whereas the A340-600 is significantly changed, and perhaps harder to combine into the A330 line, especialy with the Freighter model coming into production?

Perhaps the secondhand market will satisfy the demand for additional top up units instead?

I think both of your points are very valid. It makes little sense for Airbus to do more than assemble any remaining A340 600 inventory cost effectively and then help satisfy any further niche needs from other airline customers -- in a behind the scenes brokering process. For example I am sure Al Baker of Qatar would be delighted to move their four A340 600's on and as a major Airbus customer could use that assistance and gain substantial commercial goodwill for the future.

Thanks for everyone's inputs but I am still not sure which other airlines really need any number of these A340 600 aircraft now but do notice that another A340 600 (MSN0993) was delivered to Iberia on 29 September 2009 in the Sept Airbus O & D website update. That leaves their final two on order for delivery from September 2010.


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8657 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7889 times:



Quoting Corernagh14 (Reply 14):
I think both of your points are very valid. It makes little sense for Airbus to do more than assemble any remaining A340 600 inventory cost effectively and then help satisfy any further niche needs from other airline customers --

As long as the A330 will be in production so will the A340 (remember, they are essentially the same). The A330F hasn't even had its first flight. So it will be a very very long time until an A340 is no longer an option. Even after the A358 is in full production, I'm curious as to how many carriers will opt for the A358 vs. an A332, if they don't need the range. On that note, it would be interesting to look at the benefits of an A358 vs. and A332 on some medium-haul missions such as CDG-BOS or MAD-GIG.


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2037 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7633 times:



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 15):
As long as the A330 will be in production so will the A340 (remember, they are essentially the same).

The A340 -500 and 600 are significantly different, having larger wings and landing gear, so would be much more expensive to produce as a one off than the smaller 343.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 15):
Even after the A358 is in full production, I'm curious as to how many carriers will opt for the A358 vs. an A332

I suspect the A332 will continue to be a popular aircraft, though a lot of the future demand will be satisfied by secondhand units displaced by the 787.



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 40
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7491 times:
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Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 16):
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 15):
As long as the A330 will be in production so will the A340 (remember, they are essentially the same).

The A340 -500 and 600 are significantly different, having larger wings and landing gear, so would be much more expensive to produce as a one off than the smaller 343.

Wings and engines are different of course, as are some systems. But the fuselage is basically the same. So the A340 could relatively easy still be produced if a customer would order one or more. But sadly enough she will become ever more a niche plane, despite her qualities and her beautiful looks.  Wink


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8657 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7374 times:



Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 16):
The A340 -500 and 600 are significantly different, having larger wings and landing gear, so would be much more expensive to produce as a one off than the smaller 343.

Yes but they all come out of the same assembly line don't they? It's not like the 757 which had a dedicated assembly line and therefore it made sense to close it when the orders dried up.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 16):
I suspect the A332 will continue to be a popular aircraft, though a lot of the future demand will be satisfied by secondhand units displaced by the 787.

I don't think there are many future 787 customers operating A332's today. The true A332 replacement will be the A358 but I haven't been able to find any meaningful performance comparison of the two, for medium-haul segments.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4409 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7240 times:



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 18):
I don't think there are many future 787 customers operating A332's today. The true A332 replacement will be the A358 but I haven't been able to find any meaningful performance comparison of the two, for medium-haul segments.

I also am not aware of larger A332 operators that have plans to replace with 787. Air Berlin comes to mind.

The A358 is larger than the A332, and has a larger range. So I see it as A343 replacement, even as A345-replacement ( not many to replace ), and 772ER/LR competitor. A332 and A333 both have a valid market position, as 788-competitor resp 772A replacement, and the A350 does not eat into that market.

About the performance comparison, to my knowledge Airbus still is rather quiet about the A350 performance, and better is so given the early state of the aircraft and the experience too much hype can do damage. Of course, Airbus wants to keep the A330/340 line fully busy until the A350 line is fully busy, to keep cash flowing in. Ten delivered from this line last month is a good number.

Before we know about hot and high performance of the A358/B789, I would not give up the A346 too early. And not before we see a 748i fly...


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8657 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7068 times:



Quoting Burkhard (Reply 19):
The A358 is larger than the A332, and has a larger range. So I see it as A343 replacement, even as A345-replacement

According to current Airbus specs, a 2-class A332 has 293 seats and a 2-class A358 will have 312 seats. I know the seating arrangement provided by the manufacturers almost never matches the reality, and certainly not in this case, but since there is no A350 in operation yet I have to compare Airbus' specs for each of the models. Just like today most A332 operators seem to be in the 230-270 range for number of seats, I expect that we'll see the A358 flying with way less than 300 seats.


User currently offlineAsiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6532 times:



Quoting Corernagh14 (Thread starter):
Looks to me as if the final orders/deliveries will be those presently deferred by Iberia for delivery in September 2010 (MSN0993) and the final two a/c in 2011?

A340-600,MSN 1079, originally listed for Iberia, has been seen on the tarmac in Toulouse.

Has Airbus agreed with IB about delivery in late 2009/early 2010, or have they found another buyer?



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User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13536 posts, RR: 100
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6423 times:
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Quoting Corernagh14 (Thread starter):
does anyone believe there will be any further orders for the A340 600 to Airbus .



Quoting Corernagh14 (Thread starter):
Perhaps Airbus may sell some of their inventory at an even lower price to simply move it

Unlikely. Since the line could also use a slot for the A330 (which is selling well), why would they throw away profit by discounting an A346 when an A333 has little trouble finding demand (and thus sales at a greater profit)?

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 2):
But why would any one in their right mind order an A340 today?

With the A358/A359 coming soon... I too would wonder that.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 17):
But the fuselage is basically the same. So the A340 could relatively easy still be produced if a customer would order one or more. But sadly enough she will become ever more a niche plane, despite her qualities and her beautiful looks.

And that is the summary. I personally would be surprised if there was even one significant A340 order (say > 5 airframes). Their lease rates... are poor (indicating low resale value and low demand).

Its a very pretty plane, but the 77W has won the battle.

Oh, I'm biased. I worked on an A346 re-engine study. At the time we knew we could beat the Trent 500's fuel burn by quite a bit... and still we couldn't make the payload/range vs. costs of the A346 make sense versus the 77W. The comparison versus the A359/A35-10 must be brutal.

Note: It would also surprise me if there were zero new orders. Although, I'd imagine for VIP use, there are a few easy to pick up A345's.... Oh... if someone is really interested (and has the money) someone should low-ball QR to buy one of their A346's used (if for no other reason than to see their CEO's reaction/statements).  duck 

Lightsaber



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User currently offline757MDE From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 1753 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6242 times:



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 18):
I don't think there are many future 787 customers operating A332's today.

Avianca, even though it's unsure if they want to replace to the A330s with the 787s or are they going complement each other.
Synergy (Avianca's parent before this whole Avianca-Taca thing) ordered A350s as well though.



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User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 40
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6130 times:
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Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 22):
Its a very pretty plane, but the 77W has won the battle.

Yes she has. And also the B777, especially the latest versions are beautiful and phenomenal planes.  Smile

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 22):
Oh, I'm biased. I worked on an A346 re-engine study. At the time we knew we could beat the Trent 500's fuel burn by quite a bit... and still we couldn't make the payload/range vs. costs of the A346 make sense versus the 77W. The comparison versus the A359/A35-10 must be brutal.

The excellent performance of the combination airframe - engine on the B77W is really, really good. Also the new airliners B787 and A350 will have trouble to meet some of the specific qualities and characteristics of that B77W. And I am very curious about that comparison too. Well, in 1-3 years, when we know more about the details of the multiple A350-versions, we can see how far Airbus will squeeze and twist the A350 baseline design and see how good she will be against and the B787 and the B77W.  Wink


25 EPA001 : I am also a bit biased (aren't we all at least a bit ), in this case slightly in favor of Airbus. But as an aviation enthusiast I like all airplanes
26 RayChuang : I think the A340-600--especially the HGW version--may find a good secondary market for airlines that fly a lot of very long, over-water routes. That's
27 SEPilot : I thought it was more the hot-and-high performance, which is really the biggest advantage the A346 has over the 77W.
28 EBJ1248650 : Good point. There are, as should be obvious, airlines that really like the type!
29 Lightsaber : The 777 has been amazing. It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out. But to carry the weight of 4 engines for the size of the A346? Lovely
30 Post contains images EPA001 : That original A350 would have been a very good plane. But the market forced Airbus to drop the design, even when they already booked 200+ orders for
31 Corernagh14 : Iberia have taken delivery of MSN0960,MSN0993 and MSN1017 and they are all stored at LDE MSN1079 on tarmac in TLS and MSN1083 - both for IB may not b
32 Airbazar : As amazing as it is, there are still some missions it can't do as well as the A340, which is why the A340 is still in production an has had "top-up"
33 Asiaflyer : Thanks for clarifying..
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