Tcxdegsy From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 500 posts, RR: 1 Posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10613 times:
This was just broadcast on BBC's 6 o'clock news and their website carries the story. It appears this annoucement is a tactic, as they have been unable to agree a deal with the
unions
Trintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3191 posts, RR: 4 Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10567 times:
This is very bleak news indeed. What's the matter at BA? The whole industry is struggling at the moment but what is particularly wrong with BA for them to take such drastic measures?
AIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2364 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10474 times:
Quoting Trintocan (Reply 2): This is very bleak news indeed. What's the matter at BA? The whole industry is struggling at the moment but what is particularly wrong with BA for them to take such drastic measures?
I think the big mistake at BA was to put all eggs in one basket : Premium Travel and focus on TATL routes. Now that those markets are badly hit, BA has no plan B at the moment. So it has to cut costs at all costs... More strikes to follow I am afraid.
BestWestern From Ireland, joined Sep 2000, 6431 posts, RR: 58 Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10414 times:
Quoting Trintocan (Reply 2): This is very bleak news indeed. What's the matter at BA? The whole industry is struggling at the moment but what is particularly wrong with BA for them to take such drastic measures?
What planet do you live on.
Virtually every airline - worldwide - is letting staff go. The UK economy is in the pits at the moment.
BestWestern From Ireland, joined Sep 2000, 6431 posts, RR: 58 Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10285 times:
Anyway - the battle with BASSA will continue to be fun ....
Thousands of staff across the airline have already made contributions to the cost-reduction programme. We have been talking to the cabin crew unions since the start of the year, but have made little progress on the contribution they might make. We have extremely professional cabin crew. However, we cannot ignore the fact that our Heathrow-based cabin crew costs are much higher than those of our Gatwick-based crew and of our competitors.
Theginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1110 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10248 times:
Quoting Trintocan (Reply 2): This is very bleak news indeed. What's the matter at BA? The whole industry is struggling at the moment but what is particularly wrong with BA for them to take such drastic measures?
As has been said the people leaving are leaving voluntary redundency/
Mikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10247 times:
Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 3): think the big mistake at BA was to put all eggs in one basket : Premium Travel and focus on TATL routes. Now that those markets are badly hit, BA has no plan B at the moment. So it has to cut costs at all costs... More strikes to follow I am afraid.
The crew know that to strike would be madness in the current climate and more importantly BA KNOW that they know.
Management have been trying for years to get LHR longhaul crew in particular on different rates and terms and the current turmoil is a great excuse. Reducing the 747 compliment from 15 to 14 and involvong the CSD more in cabin service seems an obvious and inevitable tactic. (love to be a fly on the wall for that one !!) Unfortunately times are changing and BA needs to be able to match costs with those of its rivals to compete effectively.
I don't think Premium and TATL is such a big mistake. Nobody could of foreseen what happened to the banking sector. Things will pick up and BA will recover (leaner and fitter) faster than most - a big plus side to Premium and TATL !!
Throw IB and AA into the mix and things will pan out ok.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
Tcxdegsy From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 500 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9947 times:
Quoting BestWestern (Reply 7): "BA said posts being cut involved staff who managed the crew, adding there would be no reduction in customer services on flights."
That's not exactly true, if other news reports' more indepth analysis is to be believed, when they're cutting 1 excess crew member from long haul flights, which has been mentioned elsewhere here
next flights: BA1441 0566 0581 1446 EDI-LHR-MXP-LHR-EDI
BestWestern From Ireland, joined Sep 2000, 6431 posts, RR: 58 Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9741 times:
Quoting Tcxdegsy (Reply 13):
That's not exactly true, if other news reports' more indepth analysis is to be believed, when they're cutting 1 excess crew member from long haul flights, which has been mentioned elsewhere here
The cabin service director will now have to serve in the cabin also.
Quoting Tcxdegsy (Reply 12): "The changes will reduce the number of cabin crew jobs from 14,000 to 12,300."
To 12,300 full time eqv's - which means more than 13,000 cabin crew remaining.
1000 people to take voluntary redundancy - others to reduce the hours they are working.
Why are BA heathrow cabin crew paid more than Gatwick, or more than Virgin Atlantic or Bmi
Richardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3709 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 9627 times:
Quoting Sam1987 (Reply 16): BA's main trouble is the unions. Without them, they could pay their crew the same as their competitors and BA would be profitable once more.
When forecast revenue inflows are low, then making changes to increase the number of revenue streams and cutting costs, is the action to take to try and maintain a profit margin.
PAX are becoming more sophisticated and investigating more options when planning their flights and sometimes BA becomes a 'no way' option.
BestWestern From Ireland, joined Sep 2000, 6431 posts, RR: 58 Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 9592 times:
Quoting Richardw (Reply 17): PAX are becoming more sophisticated and investigating more options when planning their flights and sometimes BA becomes a 'no way' option.
Nwarooster From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 849 posts, RR: 3 Reply 19, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9072 times:
For some airlines there is NO future. Airlines just seem to get BIGGER and BIGGER.
If they do not watch what they are really doing, there is going to be a great implosion.
FXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7027 posts, RR: 93 Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 7963 times:
Hope our resident hottie BA cabin crew member, Speedbirdie, is safe.
Scrappy27 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2008, 273 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 7850 times:
Why is there so much interest in LHR crews pay?? I have worked hard as BA crew for nearly 13yrs now..starting on an extremely low basic of £8000..working my way up the ladder.
If other airline staff are unhappy about their pay..get out and do something else instead of comparing all the time. Agreed there is a crisis... crew had put forward their input as to saving money via our union, (which included some reduced allowances and a pay freeze) but the company weren't interested.
As many frequent flyers know BA, they can see that there are some dramatic changes going on and our services standards are totally slipping away... a packet of birdseed on shrthaul flts replacing the snack, continual inflt entertainment problems, worn tatty aircraft, reduced 2nd meal service in Club for flts under 10hrs... I could go on and on and on..
BA are insisting to its employees and customers that we are a "full service airline" At the end of the day we simply are not... they keep taking and taking.... Removing one crew member off our longhaul flts may assist the company financially... but unfortunately it will be the customer and the service that will suffer..
I just hope people write in to the powers that be to complain as this situation gets worse and worse... as crew we really do wanna provide excellent customer service (whether many of you believe it or not) but it's proving impossible with our tools being constantly taking away... all we seem to be doing now onboard is apologising all the time!?! it's very very frustrating
Mikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7751 times:
Quoting Scrappy27 (Reply 22): Why is there so much interest in LHR crews pay??
I think you earn every penny but times are hard out there and BA is in the spotlight. The public perception of BA and the job of crew is not very good at the moment and that is the problem.
Management seem determined to make cuts in this area and i'm concerned that even if there is no strike the endless news reports are becoming tiresome and they will damage the reputation of the airline and passenger trust in it !
Quoting Scrappy27 (Reply 22): BA are insisting to its employees and customers that we are a "full service airline" At the end of the day we simply are not... they keep taking and taking
I agree. It does all seem rather like a house of cards at the moment with Willie Walsh talking about the fight for survival being over and then there is an announcement like this. Does make me wonder what the real motives behind these cuts are ?
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
APYu From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2007, 751 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7123 times:
Quoting TFFIP (Reply 14): Does this include people on 11 month/temp contracts that will not be renewed as time passes/contracts run out?
They have all already been released - but expect some of them back as part of the new cheaper fleet
Quoting FXramper (Reply 21): Hope our resident hottie BA cabin crew member, Speedbirdie, is safe
As none of it is compulsory I shouldnt worry. If Speedbirdie is going its because they have expressed a preference to.
Quoting Scrappy27 (Reply 22): Removing one crew member off our longhaul flts may assist the company financially... but unfortunately it will be the customer and the service that will suffer..
The service may take longer but it shouldnt really suffer should it? Ive often found the service to be a race between take off and getting to crew rest.
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
25 BestWestern: I actually find the BA service to be one of the best in the industry. Survival of the airline. If I may ask, what was the additional on top of basic
26 MasseyBrown: SkyNews this morning reported that the unions are threatening to strike over the pay freeze and job cuts. It seems like posturing; American unions thr
27 Mikey72: Yes partly but no prizes for guessing that the crew members on new contracts will staff trips that trigger long range payments on the old terms and w
28 BestWestern: I note that you are quoting a 'basic' salary from 13 years ago, which is only part of the story - you did not include extras. The starting salary in
29 Scrappy27: ok it seems you have experienced a rush service every BA longhaul flight you have taken.. apologies for that but I feel the service will be affected
30 Pe@rson: STARTING salary for CABIN CREW is £16,000 on top of which extras that add ££££££ as below...! Ouch![Edited 2009-10-07 03:50:28]
31 APYu: I dont think service will be effected. Staff on the old contract will want to maintain higher standards than staff on the new contract because as soo
32 AirNZ: I don't mean to be concillatory and I definitely don't find any of it amusing in the slightest but I, and some others, have been trying to make exact
33 Speedmarque: The starting salary of LHR crew is nowhere near £16000. I wish people would stop spouting rubbish as fact. It's nearer £11000 actually. A friend who
34 Xdlx: Not a big deal! ... unless You are one of them!
35 BestWestern: So, you are telling me that BMI offers £3.3k more that BA for working at heathrow.
36 RB211LTN: Check out the Unite website, they will spell out what changes BA are proposing/imposing. http://uniteba.com/COSTSAVINGTALKSPAGE.html I am former BA cr
37 Idealstandard: There is only one motivation behind these decisions: Ensuring the airline survives. With that, protecting countless other jobs - and if laying off 2k
38 Mikey72: I really don't understand this. How have they put all their eggs in one basket ? They have 207, 215 and 271 economy seats on their 744's and similar
39 Scrappy27: Thankyou.... agreed yes we can do with having with a slight pay cut in an effort to help the company (like others in the company are doing too)... bu
40 Scrappy27: Hmmm I'm still not so sure and have to disagree with you. Not sure if you are BA staff yourself or even longhaul crew at LHR like myself, so I'm curi
41 Spud757: A strike is the last thing BA needs. Striking IMHO is a very 80's thing... and as a private sector company with lots of competitors waiting to snatch
42 Scrappy27: allowances varied per fleet per base per grade back then so it's too much detail to go into... what i can say though was overtime used to be paid aft
43 Scrappy27: I agree and I can wholeheartley agree that generally the crew dont want to strike. Management are not up for negotiation, will not turn up for meetin
44 APYu: The quicker the quality goes down the quicker the routes which are valuable to you will be lost. If the old contract crew let standards slip then the
45 BAStew: It actually refers to the onboard manager - The Customer Service Director (CSD). To date, the only cabin role that they had was handing out the GPM's
46 Speedmarque: Yes. They offer London Weighting, BA do not.
47 Scrappy27: the quality has already gone down... not due to cabin staff no matter what contract but due to the PRODUCT. who says it's going to be a good company/
48 APYu: A bad workman often blames his tools. But no I agree with you the product has deteriorated and thats a shame but product quality is only part of any
49 Scrappy27: A bit unfair classing them as cheap crew as I agree they do a fantastic job on their terms and conditions... but many of them agreed to sign on to th
50 APYu: I meant inexpensive - but you got the drift I'm aware it suffered quite a bit at the start but things have since settled. But remember high crew turn
51 Scrappy27: Is that right though?? Should it be like that??? Is that satisfactory for our customers?? Is this the good old BA brand that everyone knows and expec
52 APYu: The Exec card holders will soon be offered large points offers and redemption mileage sales to keep them sweet. That will keep them happy untill prod
53 Scrappy27: APYu your first name isn't Willy by any chance is it???
54 BestWestern: 10% more is 'meesley' 10% less is STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE - HANG THE W***ER The BA-Cabin-Crew thread on on a comPPettor board is a classic read - sounds
55 GDB: Let's be clear, I'm not anti union (I'm a union member), I don't like to see anyone get shafted, I don't want to lapse into lazy negative stereotypes
56 Scrappy27: Are you referring to me? Didn't your union accept the changes with your backing?? If it's that bad as you are making out in Engineering why are you s
57 G-CIVP: I think the incident which cost Cabin Crew dear and brings the current situation to the fore was an 'out of position flight' between BKK and SIN withi
58 Scrappy27: I'm pretty sure that acclimatised crew did operate shuttles between BKK and SIN at that time (I think you are referring to the closure of BKK airport
59 G-CIVP: Scrappy27 - thanks for your post. I stress I don't know all the detail but how it has been portrayed (so stuck in my memory) is that it did not reflec
60 Scrappy27: No worries at all.. I hope I didnt come across as being too negative as I'm all for getting the customer, the people who are paying everyone in the ai
61 HeeBeeGB: I have lots of friends in various airlines and jobs in the UK and the combination of the BA bubble, LHR T5 bubble and cabin crew bubble....LHR cabin c
62 Hotelmode: Well actually any airline operating out of London could do that. Min rest and legally they could easily do BKK-SIN and back. I think the incident was
63 Hotelmode: Thats not quite right, the law (and indeed our industrial limits) are tighter than the cabin crew rules. The difference is that BA flight crew will w
64 BestWestern: I never worked for BA (Heathrow), and even I know the resentment that exists within BA about BASSA at present. BASSA are well known within the indust
65 Scrappy27: LHR-SIN-BKK-SIN all legally?? wow..the duty day LHR-SIN is 14hrs 40mins plus 2hrs 20lt time each way... total 19hrs 20 duty day??? yikes
66 Scrappy27: we do actually know... and we have a few crew on secondment from LGW on LHR longhaul at present..
67 Hotelmode: After min rest (previous duty day -1hr for CC), it is in the post but I probably didnt make that bit obvious enough[Edited 2009-10-07 13:24:49]
68 Theginge: And this is part of the problem, for too long BA have had to effectivly ask the cabin crew union for permission to do certain things off schedule whi
69 Scrappy27: incorrect unfortunately as i think that article is referring to eurofleet crew whos annual hours are around 600... longhaul we are usually close to 9
70 Edina: Precisely why Unite have been meeting with BA for the last 9 months......to avoid such a situation. And yet BA have not sent any negotiators with any
71 Hotelmode: Price Waterhouse audited the Unite proposal at 57m though.
72 Scrappy27: and who are one of BA's top corporate clients?? oh yes Price Waterhouse
73 Hotelmode: Are you seriously suggesting that one of the top accounting firms in the world are lying? Thats pretty serious.
74 LHR27C: It wasn't anything like that, as PWC confirmed. Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Do you honestly believe PWC would get into some sort
75 VV701: But, of course it depends not only on which article you read but more importantly how you interpret what you have read. The BBC says: "The airline sa
76 Mikey72: Are you sure Mr Walsh sees it that way ? There will never be a better time and everyone knows it !
77 BAStew: This will really become an issue of 'who will blink first'. Its pointless debating how much we are paid or how much other airlines are paid. The simpl
78 BestWestern: BASSA wont sit in a room with another union. Is this a joke? How is BA supposed continue? Well, why then do people bleat in this very thread that the
79 Hotelmode: BASSA valued the savings at £60m. Thats the ENTIRE cost of all diversions BA make in a year. ie BASSA were saying that if they change the disruption
80 BestWestern: I believe BASSA here. Dont you know that BASSA believe themselves to be Godlike - if they deem that there will be no more sickness - there will be no
81 BAStew: Bestwestern most of us are prepared to do this. And i've done my very best to provide a balanced post and opinion of those of us working for crew wit
82 BAStew: Thanks for that Hotelmode, again often the devil is in the detail. Can I ask where this information came from? Bestwestern, for such an infintile uni
83 BestWestern: I understand that the current elections are postponed... Anyway - the above post was an attempt at some humor.
84 Hotelmode: Think it was at an NSP meeting, quoted by BALPA reps. Anyhow 60m is about 1m hotel rooms! I think if the CC disruption agreement really caused this k
85 LHR27C: But that doesn't mean anything - in times like this airlines are desperate to keep load factors high. Yields, on the other hand, are showing very lit
86 GDB: Scrappy 27, my comments on that appalling bit of footage is a rather milder comment than most I've ever heard. The joyful celebrations of a strike bal
87 BestWestern: Its even happening here in this thread. Arguements over average salary, quoting basic rather than total, quoting starting salary (basic), etc... even
88 BALHRCSD: Just a note : There are up to 14,000 BA cabin crew. Amicus (CC89) have 2031 members and it suggested that BASSA have 10, 000 members on their mailing
89 GDB: Crew baiting is a bit of a sport at BA, I do not to come across as someone doing that for the hell of it. Consider though, when I mentioned the more h
90 Scrappy27: Would anyone else like to post their salaries on here too and lets make a comparison with those?? Lets compare engineers, management positions, ground
91 Hotelmode: Wasnt it BASSA in one of their ridiculous show of hands ballots that declared that it was their full and final offer upon which they would not negoti
92 Scrappy27: Hotelmode..would you be happy to accept and/or can you afford a minimum 40% pay cut permanently?
93 Hotelmode: I assume you are talking about new fleet? How can you possibly know what plans there are? Its all very well claiming you're getting a 40% pay cut but
94 Mikey72: This is so true. But also the kudos associated with being flying crew has diminished greatly. Ironically in the 50's and 60's (Pan Am, TWA, BOAC etc
95 Scrappy27: You know why??? Coz it was nowhere near what BA reckoned the average would be
96 Hotelmode: No. The proposal was for an average of all payments in each rank at each base divided equally amongst that group. There would have been no lost money
97 GDB: You bring up a point that I failed to mention. And not just for crew either. I know a BA staff member, who almost straight from school, joined BOAC a
98 Trojanclipper: Why do airlines keep focusing on TATL routes that offer little cushion in good times let alone bad times? Other airlines have done this to their peri
99 Hotelmode: The transatlantic routes that are holding up, the major drop in passengers is to Asia, the one place all the armchair experts (not you!) last year re
100 HeeBeeGB: Sums the whole situation up. BAStew has quite an open view admitting he is happy to cut crew numbers etc but for many crew it's basically it's a case
101 VV701: No. Because: Please note that no where have I said that BA FA's EARN twice what those employed by VS and BD earn. This is what I did say: I*n terms o
102 Babybus: I hate to say it but from a previous thread some months ago I think we discovered that BA crew in particular are very well paid and very under-utilize
103 Musang: Hello. Their Gatwick operation went down that route (no pun) a couple of years ago. Several nighstops were replaced by the last outbound coming back t
104 Hotelmode: Do you remember the full hot breakfast and drinks for 110 that the 4 crew used to manage on a 35 minute Jersey in our previous existence?! and they'd
105 Edina: 6 is normal on a MAN when the pax load is over 100 on a 319/320 - my peak time MAN yesterday was completely full on a 320 with 6 & we struggled to ge
106 HeeBeeGB: How do LGW crew cope on a full 734 with 147 passengers to feed on the first MAN of the day? Also, LGW operate 4-class 777's with 11 crew, LHR use 12
107 APYu: Theyre probably helped by the fact that the first MAN is so ridiculously early its not often it goes out anywhere near full
108 BAStew: They need the early AM departures from europe enabling an early morning arrival into LHR to feed many of the longhaul routes. As for crew utilization
109 Sketty222: I can see why crew are looking to listen to their union and protect the standards and the conditions that they have in place already. On the other han
111 GDB: Common sense, no travel perks, none of the plethora of allowances, benefits, often non union, often not much more above minimum wage, stuck in the sa
112 Musang: Any Gatwick BA Cabin Crew care to comment? Certainly do. And the same sort of achievement on the first AMS with about 50 in Club! Regards - musang
113 Sketty222: Again, BA's sales team work out a contact centre and they have the ame travel perks as all other frontline staff and are covered by the T+G union as
114 VV701: But there are literally hundreds of call centres where all the operators get is a low wage and, if they are lucky, eventually a pension, but very lit
115 Sketty222: There are hundreds but my original point was that GDB stated that people would bite BA's hand off to become crew for them. My point to him was made i
116 GDB: When I cited 'call centre', BA workers in that job never entered my mind, since I was merely making a comparison with working at BA and jobs outside.
117 AirNZ: Nope, and I can certainly assure you that is quite incorrect. Are you saying that BA staff non-rev entirely free of charge?
118 LHR380: I can tell ya that is not the case. Its ID90 (90%) of the full Y fare on BA, Zed Fares with other airlines and certain special length of service tick
119 Scrappy27: Again, your opinion.. I would say this is all down to personal choice.. I would prefer to go somewhere in Europe rather then JFK.... Standby tickets
120 G-CIVP: This is quite unbelievable. With reference to the two night rule in the event of a divert, the hotels are only paid for if this event occurs. As it s
121 Tcxdegsy: Not true. I previously worked for Thomas Cook Direct and Thomas Cook.com, which received the exact same perks and benefits as Store staff. This inclu
122 Tcxdegsy: Oops, I accidently added my comment to VV701's, making it appear like their quote. My comment starts from "Being a CC Manager...
123 Mikey72: LOL - oh the glamour of it all ! Staff travel is like everything else in life. The older you get the less you can be bothered with it all !! Personal
124 VV701: No.I have reread what I said and I cannot see anything that could be construed as meaning "free of charge". What I was trying to say as briefly as po
125 Bongodog1964: I can't quite grasp what the cost cutting in other departments has to do with cabin crew, the jobs are not comparable, and I'm sure neither are the c
126 BAStew: Just out of curiosity, are you employed by another department of BA?
127 Bongodog1964: No, never employed by BA, nor any other part of the aerospace industry. Attempted once to join a well known aerospace sweatshop in Cambridgeshire, an
128 Nclmedic: I must agree with several of the above posters. BA is a huge business and is making cuts like almost every other sector. It's a great excuse for them
129 BAStew: The threat of industrial action really is looking likely. Below are a few paragraphs from a long letter sent thru the post from the union to its membe
130 BlueShamu330s: It is coincidental that I read this whole thread now, just having had coffee with 5 BA cabin crew who live out here Spain. The conversation inevitably
131 GDB: Boondog, I've also heard about that operation in Cambridge, from when they did some work for us. I really don't want to get into inter departmental sl
132 Bongodog1964: Everything you've heard is probably true. I still remember one statement at the interview "This company has worked continuously since 1939, if we wan
133 Tcxdegsy: Of course, some of that value is Pension, and therefore income related. However, all the perks are available for all levels, irrespective of income,
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