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International On An RJ?  
User currently offlinePackcheer From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 326 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9153 times:

This idea was brought on by an off hand comment someone made in another thread, and some comments in some other threads.

So to all of you airline experts that know more about fleets, routes, and operations than I do.....

Could an airline make use of a small jet. Think along the lines of a large buisness jet, or a CRJ/ERJ size with Intercontinental range.

With airlines attempting to serve secondary markets internationally, and not needing 767/A330 or larger sized aircraft, many airlines try international routes with the 757, and even smaller aircraft (the all business class A319, A318, 737) could this be a solution in the future?


Things that fly, Girls and Planes...
36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2367 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9137 times:

I don't think so, it just isn't efficient from an airline's perspective. A very small long range airliner will always have a significant CASM disadvantage because of the efficiencies gained/lost by the scalability of technology. With modern-era airline alliances, airlines can ship off an international passenger to their partner's hub, from which they can take a connecting short-haul flight.


oh boy!!!
User currently offlineDurangoMac From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9038 times:

Well technically speaking this is already happening. OO, EV, XE, MQ and probably several more fly from the US to Mexico, Canada and Caribbean.

User currently offlineElBandGeek From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 753 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8966 times:

Forget RJs, XJ flies Saabs to YXU from DTW and YQT from MSP (it IS technically international)

User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6306 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8937 times:

Indeed I fly MCI-YYZ-MCI routinely on a CRJ-200 with AC.

But I get where you're coming from.


User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2367 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8901 times:

Yes on these thin border flights (Caribbean, Canada, Mexico, US) RJ's are useful. But the gist of the OP's post was directed at longer flights.

Quoting Packcheer (Thread starter):
With airlines attempting to serve secondary markets internationally, and not needing 767/A330 or larger sized aircraft, many airlines try international routes with the 757, and even smaller aircraft (the all business class A319, A318, 737) could this be a solution in the future?

Specifically, Intercontinentally I see the A320/B737 series as the smallest a/c that would ever gain traction. And this is only on a limited case, as we see most of these current flights are all-business class. Only AF and QR (others?) operate mixed-class A319s on intercontinental routes. So I suspect the smallest mixed-class airplane to fly intercontinentally on a more widespread basis will be the 757-200.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineAJO From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8733 times:

IB has some intercontinental flights on CRJs, such as MAD-MLN (Melilla, which is technically in Africa, although still a domestic flight for IB).


Ryanair: never again!
User currently offlineEightball From Saudi Arabia, joined Oct 2007, 280 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8722 times:

Well, SV flies the E170 from destinations in Saudi Arabia to destinations in other GCC states such as DOH and DXB.


Follow your dream.
User currently offlineJQFlightie From Australia, joined Mar 2009, 949 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 8683 times:

DJ use E170/190 on some New Zealand - Australia, Australia - Papua New Guinea, Australia - Honiara


Next Trip: PER-DPS-LOP-CGK-KUL-PVG-LHR, LCY-MAD-VLC, BCN-LYS-TLS-IST-JED-KUL-SGN-CAN-MEL
User currently offlineAdriaticus From Mexico, joined May 2004, 1136 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8558 times:

AM flies an ERJ145 on the SAP-MEX-MSY route. That's a multinational, 1700-mi flight flown on a RJ...

__Ad.



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User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8498 times:

No - I don't think there will be a market for 50 to 70 seat sized aircraft in all economy configuration for intercontinental flights.

I'm not sure if aircraft in that size exist with the ability to carry that weight for 3,000-3,500 or even more miles.

The 100 seat sized aircraft with two classes might be able to make such a flight, especially if geared turbo-fan engines provide the anticipated fuel savings.

But for most of the next decade, I expect 1,500 to 2,000 nm is about the longest distance you are going to see aircraft below B737/A319-321 size flying for airlines.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4387 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8447 times:

Since these aircraft are not efficient by any means, this only can work when the ticket prices can be very high. London City - New York is an example that might fill 2 28-seaters a day, and that is the prime long range connection. So we have direct connections that just have a handful of passengers a week. This is done daily, and is called business jets. There are many Challenger, Gulfstream, Falcon, Learjet and Cessna out there flying prime passengers long range direct to their demands. Wait for them if the meeting takes longer. As scheduled service, I don't see a chance, I'm convinced that with ongoing airline mergers the average aircraft will become bigger, not smaller.

User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4304 posts, RR: 36
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7977 times:

Even the intercontinental A-319 and 737 flights have pretty high ASM costs, in the current aircraft you can´t carry max seats and cargo and the fuel for an intercontinental flight, so you for instance have to put fewer seats in.
Plus with the hot meals, IFE passengers expect on these routes, the aircraft have to be refitted to cater for that, probably need an extra flight attendant, further lower the revenue passengers and cargo it can take.
Then there is increased time needed for customs paperware. The pilots who have to be senior and certified with overwater operations will be better paid then the puddle jumpers. Plus you have relatively much staff (2 pilots and at least 2 F/As) needed to be put in hotels. Plus the outstation still needs staff, for instance if a standalone airline like JetBlue, FlyBe or Baboo start ERJ or CRJ or even Emb 190 flights between New York and Geneva, London or Amsterdam, they need to hire staff at the outstation for ticketing, administation, PR etc, costs which would be very high to cover by only say 40 passengers a day.
So that´s why you´ll usually only see aircraft carrying more then 170 pax on flights over 5 hours.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineNrcnyc From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7311 times:

I flew ARN-WAW-ARN on an LO ERJ-175 (or 170) a few years back. It was a pleasant trip in business class, even if the meal was a glorified snack.

User currently offlineJetSetter629 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 439 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 7091 times:

DL flys a CR9 from ATL to several cities in Central America such as BZE, SAP, and RTB. I will be ATL-BZE and that is a scheduled 3.15 hr flight.

Is there special equiptment on this flight vs intra-continental flight (ie: life rafts)

Rob


User currently offlineKGAIflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4241 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 7017 times:
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Quoting ElBandGeek (Reply 4):
XJ flies Saabs to YXU from DTW and YQT from MSP (it IS technically international)

Off the top of my head, QX flies Q400s SEA-YYC and SEA YVR and PDX-YVR.

3M flies B1900Ds Florida-Bahamas as well as bonded MIA-HAV charters

AC flies Q200s YVR-SEA, YVR-PDX, YYZ-BWI, and YYZ-GRR.

PD flies Q400s YTZ-MDW, YTZ-EWR, and YTZ-BOS.

Just quick thoughts.


User currently offlineFlyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1129 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6999 times:

I think the current flight operated by BA from LCY-JFK (through SNN) will be the smallest aircraft (A318) doing a First class only flight.

If you operate a small a/c (50 seater size) on a long intercontinental route you can only carry a few pax (5-10) to allow for increased range. A very rough guess for operation cost of a small jet on a 7hr flight NYC-London would be $5000/hr ($35k total). Split between 8 people would be $4375 each way for a NYC-London route. $8750 roundtrip.

The BA operated flight LCY-SNN-JFK and JFK-LCY round trip would cost about $10k with a total of 32 seats available. If you are more concerned with the plane waiting for you when you are late, and coming/going on your schedule as opposed to the airlines then go with a charter bizjet, if you want a really comfortable and large aircraft go with the BA flight.



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User currently offlineHawaiian763 From Canada, joined May 2009, 258 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6921 times:

AC Jazz does several International flights all the time in RJ'S:

YYC-SEA, YYC-PDX, YYC-IAH, YEG-LAX, YUL-IAH just to name a few


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3427 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6921 times:
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User currently offlineKGAIflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4241 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6785 times:
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Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 18):
AC Jazz does several International flights all the time in RJ'S:

YYC-SEA, YYC-PDX, YYC-IAH, YEG-LAX, YUL-IAH just to name a few

I've done the IAH-YYC -- it's blocked at 4:15 which is quite long.

DL is doing BIL-ATL which is also quite long.

btw, YYC-SAN will be RJ until month's end.


User currently offlineKingFriday013 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1296 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6378 times:

I've taken RJs MCO-NAS (DL Connecton/Chautaqua E145), IAH-MEX (COEX/XE E45X), MZT-IAH (COEX/XE E145), and if you consider the E-175 a RJ then AC YUL-LGA. I know there are a lot of flights to Canada using RJs.
Here in ROC, AC has Beech 1900Ds flying to YYZ; that's international  Silly

-J.



Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you, By the livin' Gawd that made you, You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6324 times:

All at or below 1500nm

Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 20):
I've done the IAH-YYC -- it's blocked at 4:15 which is quite long.

1518 nm

Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 18):
YUL-IAH

1377 nm

Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 20):
DL is doing BIL-ATL which is also quite long.

1325 nm

Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 20):
YYC-SAN will be RJ until month's end.

1111 nm

Quoting JetSetter629 (Reply 15):
ATL-BZE

985 nm

Among the shortest trans-continental routes is BOS-SNN - which is 2,516 nm

Based upon the flights listed above - you're looking a 7 to 8 hours flight time - not considering winds.


User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6306 times:



Quoting JetSetter629 (Reply 14):
Is there special equiptment on this flight vs intra-continental flight (ie: life rafts)

I don't know if those routes require adidng HF/SECAL radios. It is about 500 nm across open water, but how much is out of the range of VHF radios, I don't know. Part of the route is close enough to Cuba to use their ATC.


User currently offlineN104UA From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 902 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6251 times:

if you are going intercontinental on an RJ the max I would go would be ATH-CAI


"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6052 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5501 times:



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 5):
Only AF and QR (others?)

Kl (via PrivatAir) flies a bbj AMS-IAH

Quoting JetSetter629 (Reply 14):
DL flys a CR9 from ATL to several cities in Central America such as BZE, SAP, and RTB. I will be ATL-BZE and that is a scheduled 3.15 hr flight.

They use them on llighter weekdays, off season. This winter the CR9 will be the second Flight for DL on Sat and we presume Sun for BZE. The first flight will be MD88. You will be coming to BZE?



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
25 Viscount724 : I think you mean "intercontinental". Transcontinental means "across a continent", like JFK-LAX. Also, there are many flights which are technically "i
26 PlymSpotter : Those flights aren't very long at all though. Belavia serve BEY from MSQ with the CRJ100 though, which is a 1432 mile flight. Libyan Arab Airways ser
27 FlyingSicilian : As noted cost versus scalability of tech is an issue. I think the richer business markets will stick with business jets or the connecting flights as n
28 NZ107 : Not yet. All of DJ's trans Tasman flights are operated by 738s.
29 KingFriday013 : -J.
30 Ttailfan : GRR YYZ is served by Air Canada (Air Gerogian) with a Beech 1900D. That's an international flight.
31 Viscount724 : The Air Georgian Beech 1900s operate at least 10 other AC routes from YYZ to U.S. cities: ALB ABE DAY DTW MDT BDL MHT PVD ROC HPN. Also YUL-BDL.
32 San747 : Is it being upgraded or suspended?
33 KGAIflyer : AC will upgrade the route to an E190 through the beginning of 2010 -- mainly to compete with Westjet's new 3 x a week 737NG service.
34 San747 : Nice! It's been a while since AC had the E190 in SAN, of course flying the YYZ-SAN route. So SAN's Canadian routes will now be a daily CR9 to YVR, th
35 JQFlightie : How about some of BD regional routes... LBA-BRU, GLA-CPH, EDI-ZRH these flights are operated on RJ135/145
36 Post contains links and images VV701 : TIP-MAN by Libyan Airlines has already been mentioned. Their CRJs are also regular visitors at LHR: View Large View MediumPhoto © Pawel Markowicz
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