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Unusual Seating Layout Of This 767-300  
User currently offlineFlaps30 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 283 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 24787 times:

I noticed on a picture taken aboard a Thomas Cook Airlines 767-300 that the seating arrangement was 2-4-2. I never in my mind thought that this was possible on a 763. I have never seen this type of layout before. Has anyone else? The pax must be really cramped in those seats. I apologize for not attaching the pic, I still need to perfect that science. The picture is currently on the Anet home page.


every day is a good day to fly
65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3122 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 24796 times:

I have heard of this, and I am guessing it isnt much worse than Air France 777-300 3-4-3 (which is pretty bad)... then again AF is not a charter airline like Thomas Cook..

'902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7390 posts, RR: 17
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 24660 times:



Quoting Flaps30 (Thread starter):
I apologize for not attaching the pic,

Here it is:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Darren Wilson



Quoting Flaps30 (Thread starter):
I still need to perfect that science

In order to reproduce a photo you need to enclose your identification message between a "<" and a ">". The message is either "photoid:xxxxxxx" or, for two photos side by side, "twoid:xxxxxxx,xxxxxxx" where, of course, "xxxxxxx" is the ID number of the photo or photos you wish to show, "1590067" in the example of the 767 interior.

Hope this helps. Look forward to seeing your next interesting discovery on the a-net photo data base.


User currently offlineExpatmatt From Liechtenstein, joined Oct 2004, 113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 24481 times:

2-4-2 seating on a 767 is somewhat common for *charter* operators.

A few years ago I flew on an Airtours UK 767-300 that was in this configuration. Not a very comfortable ride.

Have a look at other charter carriers that operate the 767 and you'll see that they too, probably use a 2-4-2 (8-abreast) layout.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24824 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 24160 times:



Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 1):
I have heard of this, and I am guessing it isnt much worse than Air France 777-300 3-4-3 (which is pretty bad)... then again AF is not a charter airline like Thomas Cook..

It is worse than a 10-abreast 777, which is probably why 8-abreast has been so rare on 767s.

Quoting Expatmatt (Reply 3):
2-4-2 seating on a 767 is somewhat common for *charter* operators.

As far as I know, 2-4-2 is actually quite rare, even among charter operators, and I believe virtually all 767 operators with 8-abreast seating have been based in the UK. Britannia Airways was the first if not mistaken many years ago on their 762s.


User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2378 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 24106 times:

This configuration is ridiculous. There is hardly any room left in the aisles. MT can put 326 passengers in the B763. Their A332s have less passengers, only 323.

I have personally flown on EK B77Ws, and even with 10 abreast in Y, there is still plenty of room in the aisles. This config on the 763 is ridiculous.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2009-10-07 19:28:58]


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineFlaps30 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 24032 times:

A few other questions that I have regarding the 2-4-2 layout on this 763:

1. Does this particular 763 have more powerful engines than the "normal" 763?

2. Is the performance of this aircraft compromised in any way with the extra weight?

Any thoughts on this is appreciated.



every day is a good day to fly
User currently offlineBohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 24013 times:



Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 1):
I am guessing it isnt much worse than Air France 777-300 3-4-3 (which is pretty bad)

Try a 3-4-3 configuration on a PanAm DC10 I once rode on. The cabin cross section on a DC10 is a foot narrower than a 777.  crowded 


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24824 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 23957 times:



Quoting Bohica (Reply 7):
Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 1):
I am guessing it isnt much worse than Air France 777-300 3-4-3 (which is pretty bad)

Try a 3-4-3 configuration on a PanAm DC10 I once rode on.

If you're referring to one of the ex-National DC-10s inherited by Pan Am when they merged, those were 9-abreast (2-5-2), at least the 2 or 3 I flew on after the merger. However, Pan Am's L-1011-500s did have cramped, charter-type 10-abreast (3-4-3) seating in Y class which made them very uncomfortable compared to their 747s.


User currently offlineBohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 23922 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
If you're referring to one of the ex-National DC-10s inherited by Pan Am when they merged, those were 9-abreast (2-5-2), at least the 2 or 3 I flew on after the merger.

I believe they had both configurations. The one I flew on SFO-LAX-MIA was 10 abreast. It was fine on the SFO-LAX leg because it was empty but the LAX-MIA leg was a cattle car. I still tell people that it was the longest flight in my life.  Smile


User currently offlineTZTriStar500 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1451 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 23882 times:

3-4-3 in a DC-10/MD-11/L-1011 is not that uncommon for a high density charter layout.

At TZ, the L-1011s where 3-4-3 with the L-1011-1's at 362 total pax and initially the L15s at 306, later reduced to 283 (seat pitch increase).

World's MD-11s are 3-4-3 and so are Omni's DC-10s.



35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
User currently offlineAlitaliaDC10 From Australia, joined Dec 2008, 240 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 23847 times:

I believe the 747 can have max 3-5-3 seating...does anyone know if any airline has ever had such an arrangement? I can't seem to think of any but I do remember reading somewhere that the it can have 3-5-3 arrangement for high density ops.


Orbis non sufficit
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24824 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 23771 times:



Quoting AlitaliaDC10 (Reply 11):
I believe the 747 can have max 3-5-3 seating...does anyone know if any airline has ever had such an arrangement?

I don't believe so. Some 747s with high-density 10-abreast seating have operated with up to about 580 seats.


User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 3305 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 23671 times:

Oh, dear God, that looks inhumane.  crowded 

I believe Martinair also has a sole 767 with 2-4-2 seating (PH-MCJ):


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Hediye



User currently offlineMr airnz From New Zealand, joined Feb 2002, 850 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 23620 times:



Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 5):
This configuration is ridiculous. There is hardly any room left in the aisles. MT can put 326 passengers in the B763. Their A332s have less passengers, only 323.

It's simply business mate.

Low yielding tourists on packaged holidays...got to pack em' in to make a buck  cheerful 


User currently offlineFlaps30 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 23139 times:



Quoting VV701 (Reply 2):
In order to reproduce a photo you need to enclose your identification message between a "<" and a ">". The message is either "photoid:xxxxxxx" or, for two photos side by side, "twoid:xxxxxxx,xxxxxxx" where, of course, "xxxxxxx" is the ID number of the photo or photos you wish to show, "1590067" in the example of the 767 interior.

Hope this helps. Look forward to seeing your next interesting discovery on the a-net photo data base.

Hey VV701,

Thank you for the photo posting instructions!!



every day is a good day to fly
User currently offlineJamies80085 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2008, 154 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 22967 times:

i flew on that TCX a/c in question last year, and in actual fact, it isn't that bad. as long as you're not in the centre 4, its quite a comfortable ride


Cross my heart and hope to fly, f**k right off into the middle of the sky... that would be my ecstasy
User currently offlineTravelsUK From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 134 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 22793 times:

Our (Thomson Airways) ex ThomsonFly 767's have the 2-4-2 config in the standard cabin, 2-3-2 in the 'premium' cabin, I have always found the standard cabin seats fine for a long haul, they do after all have a 33" seat pitch, so greater than BA or VS for example, although naturally the aisles are narrower which causes some congestion.

From what I understand these higher density 767's are used on the 'bucket & spade' routes to Egypt and the Dom Rep, Florida, Cancun etc.

The ex First Choice Airways 767's are in a 2-3-2 configuration in the standard cabin and are used on the longer 'premium' routes to Kenya, the Maldives and such like.


User currently offlineAirIndia From United Arab Emirates, joined Jan 2001, 1634 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 22455 times:



Quoting AlitaliaDC10 (Reply 11):
it can have 3-5-3 arrangement for high density ops.

The japanese domestic version cud be a possible guess. Can anyone verify........


User currently offlineT8KE0FF From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 410 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 22414 times:

I think I flew AC and It was 2-4-2 and that was for a trans atlantic (a 767) ... God that was the WORST flight of my life!


RJ85 E145 E195 A319 A320 A330 A340 A380 B737 B747 B757 B767 B777 B787 DH4
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8502 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 22275 times:



Quoting Flaps30 (Reply 6):

2. Is the performance of this aircraft compromised in any way with the extra weight?

Nope, since these kinds of charter operators are rarely hauling any freight in the holds.


User currently offlineFlyingColours From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2315 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 21984 times:

The 2-4-2 configuration is still very common over here, well with our charter carriers at least.

Our 767-300 aircraft used to have 2-4-2 in economy, 2-3-2 in what was premium (later just marketed as extra legroom economy) and then 2-2-2 in XL One (first class). Nobody ever really complained as to the seating arrangments, though a few people did look uncomfortable on the very long 11+ hour double drop routes...

I've flown as a passenger on it and found that the window seats are still comfortable, though I'm very glad I've never ended up in the middle 4.

Our 767-200ER (ex BY) was in full 2-4-2 config and could cram 290 passengers in it, it was used on the high density routes and also as a backup. It used to have its own list of problems but thats a whole different story for a different thread...

The only thing that immediatly springs to mind about the 767s is that the isles were painfully narrow, which meant navigating your cart along was difficult, esp when people would extend themselves into the isle and fall asleep... Again a different topic all together  Smile

Phil
FlyingColours



Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
User currently offlineKimberlyrj From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 385 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 21571 times:



Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 21):
Our 767-200ER (ex BY) was in full 2-4-2 config and could cram 290 passengers in it, it was used on the high density routes and also as a backup. It used to have its own list of problems but thats a whole different story for a different thread...

Which airline is that? do you mean the bankrupt XL?

KimberlyRJ


User currently onlineBasilFawlty From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 1315 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 21071 times:



Quoting Kimberlyrj (Reply 22):
Which airline is that? do you mean the bankrupt XL?

He means Thomsonfly, which used to operate 767-200's. The last examples left the fleet last year.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 13):
believe Martinair also has a sole 767 with 2-4-2 seating (PH-MCJ):

 checkmark 

Also Rossiya and TUIfly Nordic have a 2-4-2 config. in their 767's.



'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
User currently offlineCheetahC From South Africa, joined Apr 2009, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 20756 times:



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 20):
Quoting Flaps30 (Reply 6):

2. Is the performance of this aircraft compromised in any way with the extra weight?

Nope, since these kinds of charter operators are rarely hauling any freight in the holds.

The aircraft's maximum takeoff weight stays the same, so performance won't be affected. In the highly unlikely scenario where they reach MTOW without max fuel the range will of course be affected.


25 WildcatYXU : No. You definitely didn't fly an AC 763 with 8 abreast seating in Y. There is no such aircraft.
26 FlyingColours : I did mean XL Airways, I should have made it clearer but am trying to stop bringing up that sad chapter, we had two 767-300ER G-VKNI and G-VKNG, both
27 LongHauler : Air Canada has never flown an 8 abreast B767 ... ever! The tightest configuration ever flown was an all Y B767-200 which was used for low-yield chart
28 ThegreatRDU : Those 763s have to be like that, they carry low-yielding vacationers....they have to fit as much as they can in there man that must be painful...
29 EMA747 : Looks ok to me. People get too hung up about these things. It's much better than being in a car. Andy S
30 Beeweel15 : They had couple especially the DC10-10's The DC10-30's were the long range ones and were 2x5x2. I flew on a 3x4x3 layout on a flight from JFK-POS-JFK
31 Intermodal64 : Isn't Delta going 2-4-2 on their 767's with some kind of staggered seating arrangement? Seems like a tight fit, staggered or not staggered. (Remember
32 Vasu : That plan's been shelved, I believe.
33 AAMDanny : MT uses there 767's as a back up if an A332 goes tech. They are also often doing Short/Medium Haul Rotations... Which is why usually Holiday Makers ca
34 Lapper : I guess the only thing to be comprimised would be the shoulder room and the seat width, making them slightly more uncomfortable for "larger" passenger
35 Rdwootty : Having flown from MAN-CUN with First choice 2-3-2 that cabin was great, the flights operated by TOM , as it is now, do not let you know if it is an ol
36 Jfk777 : PAN AM had charter configured DC-10's that were 3-4-3, they also had 2-5-2 for scheduled flights. Pan AM was an airline that did both.
37 FlyDeltaJets87 : What kind of car do you have that has less than room than a standard Y-seat, never mind comparing that to the room of a packed in at 8 abreast on a 7
38 JJeff : . I know I've read about Hajj pilgrimage flights in the past with up to 1000 people boarded on 747s. Anyone know how that was accomplished? Don't sup
39 Post contains links Viscount724 : No, the Hajj flights don't carry anything beyond standard maximum certified seating. You're probably thinking about El Al's "Operation Solomon" fligh
40 Ardian : I flew Air Transat A330-200 with 9 abreast seating in Y (9 hrs flight from AMS to YVR), that was pretty horrible as well! I believe there are more air
41 Skytony : I believe Skymark of Japan and Air Do have 8 abreast seating on their 767s.
42 Viscount724 : Air Transat increased the seat pitch by about 2 inches a year or two ago which helped make 9-abreast more acceptable.
43 Post contains links DeltaCTO : Delta operated 5 ex-Pan Am L1011-500's with 3x4x3 configuration in Y. DL used these planes on the PDX-SEL-TPE-BKK and LAX-ANC-HKG routes in the early
44 SkyWriter : I am 97% sure I flew KJFK-EDDT (and back) in a Delta 2-4-2 config 763 in June of 2007.... was on the right end on the 4, next to a sweaty person, for
45 Viscount724 : To my knowledge, no U.S. carrier, including DL, has ever operated 767s with 2-4-2 seating.
46 Evan767 : Well, you weren't. So the 3% wins!
47 Aidoair : I think alot of the people commenting about how bad it is with a 2-4-2 config havn't actually experienced being on-board one. In all fairness there is
48 Viscount724 : Please explain how you can take 1/2 inch from 7 seats (=3.5 inches) and probably about 2 inches from each aisle, or a total of about 9.5 inches, and
49 Thenoflyzone : Well, Easyjet is 29, Ryanair is 30, but out here in North America, Southwest is 32-33, Westjet is 32-34, and Air Transat is 31 to 33. Even low fare a
50 Brilondon : I have to agree with WildcatYXU, I have never heard of an AC 767 with such a configuration. It seems only in Europe do you get configurations and I h
51 AT : Also, don't forget that the impact of the addition of an extra seat per row differs based on the number of existing seats per row. With a 767, adding
52 Post contains images Aidoair : Yes, my bad i meant an average of 1.5 inches off each seat. By this i mean the actual seat cushion and yes obviously the seats gaps are reduced, the
53 HNL-Jack : Ouch! Hard to believe it passed the EVAC tests with those narrow asiles.
54 Viscount724 : Yes I know the UK has the worst obesity problem in Europe, but it's still not as bad as the U.S. On trips to the U.S. the first thing I notice after
55 ATA L1011 : Not correct its only 6inch difference between the DC-10 and 777, here is a break down of the cabin cross sections (Interior widths) from widest to mo
56 Brucek : This is cool stuff, I love this domensional comparison. Do you have a fuselage length comparison too, for the above types? Thanks, Bruce.
57 ATA L1011 : You mean cabin length's or overall length's?
58 Higherflyer : There is not that much room in the aisles. I'm 1.85+ metres tall and 75 kg, so no weight issue and the aisles are tough for me walk down without bump
59 Brucek : Cabin lengths would be good to compare (with the width figures above) total pax area capacity of these heavies. Thanks, Bruce.
60 Post contains links Dazbo5 : I wondered why my photo had attracted so many hits, just seen your discussions here!! I've travelled on both of TCX's 763's in this charter configura
61 SpeedyGonzales : Can anyone translate into units the remaining 95% of the world can understand?
62 ATA L1011 : 747= 6.13meters 777= 5.86m L1011=5.77m DC10/MD11=5.72m ILL86/96=5.70m A300/10/30/40=5.28m 767=4.72m Is that better! Speedy!
63 ATA L1011 : Bruce I can give the you the info that I have readily available and will get back with the rest. Cabin lengths: A340-600=200ft (60.9m) 777-300= 194ft
64 Airman99o : These were the 767's that were in the Skyservice fleet for a short amount of time. I never flew on these, avoided it like the plague. 2-4-2 seating, n
65 Brucek : Thanks, much appreciated. Bruce.
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