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Should Lufthansa Return To Australia?  
User currently offlineDairy From Germany, joined Nov 2003, 240 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 13381 times:

Isn't there a market for Lufthansa to restart flights to the Australia? Will they? What do you think?


A318/A319/A320/A321 AB3/A306/A310/A333/A343/A346 732/733/735/736/744/752/763/764/772/773 DH3 F70 F100 CR2 CR1 CR7 ATR42
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8525 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 13347 times:
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I dont think so , they have codeshares in place with both TG and SQ to cover connecting pax .

The only way I could see it happening is if QF pull their SYD-SIN-FRA service ( often rumoured and always possible given their LHR-centric view of Europe ) and LH find themselves with an aircraft that could economically fly FRA-SYD nonstop ( unlikely , IMHO ) .

edited to add : Even in the unlikely event that LH decide to return to the Aussie market with their own metal for FRA-SYD they would still need the codeshares on SQ/TG to cover other ports such as PER/ADL/MEL/BNE

[Edited 2009-10-09 06:39:06 by kiwiandrew]


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineTN486 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 914 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 13297 times:

IMHO it is a matter of economics and profit. LH could never make it work in previous good times, let alone the current bad times. They chose to codeshare with SQ into Australia, and I would suspect that will be the preferred option for years to come.


remember the t shirt "I own an airline"on the front - "qantas" on the back
User currently offlineRichcandy From UK - England, joined Aug 2001, 718 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 12796 times:

From what I remember towards the end of the LH service Lufthansa were operating the route with Condor aircraft. So I guess they can't of been getting much high end premium business.

The issue with flying to Australia from Europe is that the fares are low for the distance travelled. So maybe better money on other routes.


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8249 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 11458 times:
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Quoting Richcandy (Reply 3):
The issue with flying to Australia from Europe is that the fares are low for the distance travelled. So maybe better money on other routes.

In these days of high fuel prices airlines can't operate planes beyond their nonstop capability from the origination airport. Lufthansa has two excellent alliance partners in Thai & Singapore Airlines covering all of Australia very well.


User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5113 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 11226 times:



Quoting Dairy (Thread starter):
Isn't there a market for Lufthansa to restart flights to the Australia? Will they? What do you think?

No way. The biggest cost for an airline on this route is the extreme long crew layovers somewhere half way. Something CX, TG, MH don't have because they are based at the stopover point anyway. What we need is LCC longhaul like Air AsiaX. If a pax can make it alive in 24 hours a stewardess can do it in 48 I always say.



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4673 posts, RR: 38
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 11144 times:
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Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 4):
In these days of high fuel prices airlines can't operate planes beyond their nonstop capability from the origination airport. Lufthansa has two excellent alliance partners in Thai & Singapore Airlines covering all of Australia very well.

Yes they have. And therefore the chances of LH flying their own planes to down under are very slim. And with these good partners, of which SQ even operates A380's to and from Australia, why would they? The code-sharing option is by far the best they can do. I am booked for Australia in February 2010 on the A380 myself and will fly SQ from LHR to SIN and will fly SQ form SIN tot SYD. I am "a fan" of LH, but I will just as much appreciate flying with SQ, which is also one of my favorite airlines. I think I am not the only one who feels this way about these two airlines which makes the code-sharing option even more attractive.  Wink


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3204 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10983 times:

Well everybody is just using the SQ and TG thing as a reason why they can't.

I'd like to point out that Lufthansa now sells more tickets to and FROM australia (thats right...tickets purchased IN Ahustralia) then they ever have, including during when they actually flew their own aircraft to Australia.

Yes that's all on the back of the codeshares. But air france has been rumoured, prior to the crash to be looking at returning(and Lufthansa has a much better chance then AF due to the larger volume of traffic to and from northern europe to Australia and also the business traffic mostly based on industrial production and trade...something not big between france and Australia) then Lufthansa may be able to make this work too.

The biggest change however, is all the new European airlines Lufthansa now has feeding its hub. Any new flight to Australia, would be fed by BMI, Lufthansa Italia, Swiss, SN Brussels and Austrian in addition Lufthansa's european flights. In the case of Swiss and Austrian, the they could feed the last leg of any tag on directly in Asia from a long haul flight, rather then requiring the passenger to go to Frankfurt first. Also, if Lufthansa bucked the trend of Using an Asian airport as the stopover, and selected DXB instead, potentially it could get BMI to feed this flight as well, maybe even direct from London Heathrow. Swiss already has services to DXB and I think Austrian too.

So I think it's definately possible. Will they make a forturne doing it? not likely. But LH does enable you to get to a hell of a lot of destinations inside europe, and that of course would be the appeal of sticking with them. Though the biggest threat to all Non-british european airlines flying to Australia of course has been the rise of Emirates and some of the asian airlines, enabling nonstop service into regional but sizable european cities and thanks to the fact they operate hubs at the midpoint, allowing a level of frequency the others would struggle to maintain. That and a generally good product at a competitive price.


User currently offlineDairy From Germany, joined Nov 2003, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10832 times:



Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 7):
Well everybody is just using the SQ and TG thing as a reason why they can't.

This is exactly what I thought. If the codeshare works well- why should they not rethink of that option to fly themselves (again)? Especially when they have surely a lot of pax from all over europe they can feed/get to australia, now with at least with to two airlines in their 'package' that had service to down under.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 7):
Also, if Lufthansa bucked the trend of Using an Asian airport as the stopover, and selected DXB instead, potentially it could get BMI to feed this flight as well, maybe even direct from London Heathrow. Swiss already has services to DXB and I think Austrian too.

interesting pov. let's dream: if that would go out of (FRA-)DXB-SYD only the A346 would do that, right? Or could the 744 do DXB-SYD?



A318/A319/A320/A321 AB3/A306/A310/A333/A343/A346 732/733/735/736/744/752/763/764/772/773 DH3 F70 F100 CR2 CR1 CR7 ATR42
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21456 posts, RR: 60
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10805 times:

Could also continue on from India to Oz if given freedoms to do so...


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3204 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 10761 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
Could also continue on from India to Oz if given freedoms to do so...

Actually that's a very good idea! Currently there are no direct services between India and Australia, the QF service is via singapore, and SIA and MAS pretty much own this market. Back when QF introduced the 743 as their flagship for heathrow services, they were operating it via BOM.

I believe Europe-India has been flooded in recent years due to the rise of all the indian carriers, and if you planned this one right, you could actually service 2 australian cities. Logic? Send a Lufthansa 744 or A346 down to sydney from India, but at the same time, Send an Austrian 763 down to Melbourne. If indian services have been struggling in recent years due to excessive capacity this would help ease that. The idea definately needs further consideration!


User currently offlineJQFlightie From Australia, joined Mar 2009, 945 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 10398 times:



Quoting KL911 (Reply 5):
No way. The biggest cost for an airline on this route is the extreme long crew layovers somewhere half way. Something CX, TG, MH don't have because they are based at the stopover point anyway. What we need is LCC longhaul like Air AsiaX. If a pax can make it alive in 24 hours a stewardess can do it in 48 I always say.

So what your saying is that a Flight Attendant should work for instance FRA-SIN-SYD ? I can tell you now it is not possible even in there is minimum rest in SIN that would endanger the lives of Passengers, Fatigue issues within the idustry are massive right now.. i suggest you read this document compiled on Fatigue Within Flight Attendants http://www.afanet.org/aefiles/FatigueReport_pt1.pdf
If you still think that 48hrs is enough ill gladly give you my wings and let you try it!



Next Trip: PER-DPS-LOP-CGK-KUL-PVG-LHR, LCY-MAD-VLC, BCN-LYS-TLS-IST-JED-KUL-SGN-CAN-MEL
User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 10337 times:

I think it's increasingly likely that Lufthansa will return to Australia, for three reasons:

1) The exchange rate is now much more favourable, and Australia's economy is doing better than most of Lufthansa's closer markets.

2) There is now extra European feed (Swiss, Austrian, LOT, SN, BMI),

3) Singapore Airlines is charging LH exorbitant rates for the SIN-Australia sectors now that their flights are mainly with new 380/332 equipment, and it's probably reaching the tipping point for LH where it's more cost-effective to fly it themselves.

The argument of crew costs is a distraction: LH would presumably operate locally-employed staff at SIN or wherever.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12783 posts, RR: 100
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10158 times:
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Quoting TN486 (Reply 2):
IMHO it is a matter of economics and profit. LH could never make it work in previous good times, let alone the current bad times. They chose to codeshare with SQ into Australia, and I would suspect that will be the preferred option for years to come.

 checkmark 

I like the Indian stop point idea, perhaps a scissor hub a la BRU & 9W? Flights from FRA, MUC and ??? and then continuing on to SYD and MEL.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 5):
No way. The biggest cost for an airline on this route is the extreme long crew layovers somewhere half way. Something CX, TG, MH don't have because they are based at the stopover point anyway. What we need is LCC longhaul like Air AsiaX.

I agree with the premise that long crew rests make flights to Oz un-economical unless the stop over city sees enough service. Rather than doing extreme crew fatigue... I would suspect the routing would work if the target 'scissor hub' city could support enough flights. But which city? Do they have rights from India?

But I suspect it is unlikely LH would go up against SQ, QF, EK, and QR. The market to Austria is not what it used to be.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2711 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10038 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 4):
In these days of high fuel prices airlines can't operate planes beyond their nonstop capability from the origination airport. Lufthansa has two excellent alliance partners in Thai & Singapore Airlines covering all of Australia very well.

Wrong: QF and BA alone fly the same metal with the same flight number Oz-Asia-LHR 7 times daily just from SYD and MEL. That's not counting EK, EY and many others that do one stop services between Oz and other destinations beyond the non-stop range of the aircraft.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineBen175 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 674 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9009 times:



Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 10):

Actually that's a very good idea! Currently there are no direct services between India and Australia, the QF service is via singapore, and SIA and MAS pretty much own this market. Back when QF introduced the 743 as their flagship for heathrow services, they were operating it via BOM.

I believe Europe-India has been flooded in recent years due to the rise of all the indian carriers, and if you planned this one right, you could actually service 2 australian cities. Logic? Send a Lufthansa 744 or A346 down to sydney from India, but at the same time, Send an Austrian 763 down to Melbourne. If indian services have been struggling in recent years due to excessive capacity this would help ease that. The idea definately needs further consideration!

And a Swiss 332 down to PER :P
Just kidding. It would be fantastic to see LH back in Australia, but unfortunately I can't see it happening.


User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2832 posts, RR: 30
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8915 times:

At one time, you had most of the prestigious European flag carriers flying to Australia. Now, the playing field has changed, where airlines such as KE, CX, SQ, TG, MH, EK, EY, and QR are at a distinct advantage thanks to their excellent (and popular!) hubs and inherent cost advantages. It makes little sense for AF, LH, KL, or others to compete against these airlines.


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3204 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8803 times:



Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 16):
It makes little sense for AF, LH, KL, or others to compete against these airlines.

Not quite so. Cathay Pacific can't get you to Gothenburg, to Brussels or Turin or the Island of Lesbos (or some other greek islands) but Lufthansa can. Emirates can get u to Some regional cities but not all. There is room there for LH. And by that same argument you'd also be arguing Qantas couldn't successfully compete with the asian and middle east airlines but it does.


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8413 times:

As long as you can't make it non-stop with a reasonable payload it makes no sense to fly the route in our times with all the alliances. Even for those airlines which do it, it is only because of historical or political reasons (BA, QF). When you have to make a stop en route anyway it is much more economical to hand over the passenger to an alliance partner (at SIN or BKK) than to fly your own metal. Between FRA and SIN you need probably three aircrafts to fly daily, continuing to SYD you at least need one frame more which could be used better on other routes. I am not even counting the crews which you have on layover down-under.

[Edited 2009-10-10 03:42:42]

User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8354 times:



Quoting ZRH (Reply 18):
As long as you can't make it non-stop with a reasonable payload it makes no sense to fly the route in our times with all the alliances. Even for those airlines which do it, it is only because of historical or political reasons (BA, QF).

And Virgin Atlantic?

At the end of the day the competitive balance will change from year to year. In recent years it has been cheaper for the airlines to get the likes of Thai or Singapore Airlines to do the final sector into Australia, but SQ is really making that too unprofitable for the European carriers, and sooner or later some of them will be back, especially as A$-denominated income is now much more valuable than previously.


User currently offlineLXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2122 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8010 times:



Quoting ZRH (Reply 18):
As long as you can't make it non-stop with a reasonable payload it makes no sense to fly the route in our times with all the alliances. Even for those airlines which do it, it is only because of historical or political reasons (BA, QF). When you have to make a stop en route anyway it is much more economical to hand over the passenger to an alliance partner (at SIN or BKK) than to fly your own metal. Between FRA and SIN you need probably three aircrafts to fly daily, continuing to SYD you at least need one frame more which could be used better on other routes. I am not even counting the crews which you have on layover down-under

I am wondering how QF is doing on the europe to Australia routes. I could imagine Yields aren't great but possibly also not too bad as they benefit from a lot of traffic using their service on the Asia-australia-routes and then again Asia-Europe-Asia routes instead of having most passengers flying with them from Australia to Europe?


User currently offlineGT4EZY From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 1778 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7912 times:

With regards to crew........ why do so many people think that nightstopping crew is overly expensive? With agreements airlines have with major hotel chain's it's not. Besides, BA do the LHR-Asia-SYD-Asia-LHR trip in something like 10 days, thats hardly laying over crew days on end.


Proud to fly from Manchester!
User currently offlineIainbhx From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2008, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7731 times:

What might interest people is how LH actually route people from Europe to Australia. Whilst SQ is quite common, you'll also find plenty of availability where they hand over to QF at SIN (or HKG). Also at really high demand times you'll occasionally see LAX and UA in the mix.

Last time I did BHX-SYD, I had to spend a bit extra to get a routing which didn't involve QF (because I needed the M&M status miles)



iainbhx
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7251 times:

The problem with Europe-Australia (except the UK) is that almost all traffic is low-yield leisure traffic. I can't see SYD service being compatible with LH's cost structure and high proprtion of premium seats on their longhaul fleet. It's a more appropriate route for a leisure carrier with lower costs and higher-density seating. But even carriers with such products (e.g. Lauda) found it uneconomic and pulled out.

The other problem is that there must be at least 20 airlines operating online service between Europe and Australia, many with equally competitive elapsed times as a direct flight with the same aircraft. And many of those carriers have lower costs than LH.

Codeshare service using alliance partners makes much more sense.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 10):
Actually that's a very good idea! Currently there are no direct services between India and Australia, the QF service is via singapore, and SIA and MAS pretty much own this market.

QF only recently dropped their nonstop SYD-BOM-SYD service using 332s. It was one of the longest nonstop 332 routes of any carrier.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 13):
I like the Indian stop point idea, perhaps a scissor hub a la BRU & 9W?

Airports in India have poor facilities to serve as a hub. That routing would be very unattractive compared to almost all other carriers via their much more pleasant connecting hubs such as DXB/SIN/KUL/HKG or even ICN/NRT.


User currently offlineAirevents From Germany, joined Jan 2002, 870 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7001 times:

No way they will come back. By the time a say Airbus A340-600 has returned from Sydney (which would probably be the highest-yielding destination for LH in Australia), it can easily fly almost three return trips to high-yielding destinations like Africa or the Middle East. In my opinion, the codeshare option is the only viable one for the nearer future. Aircraft that can do Europe-Australia nonstop both ways may change this, but with the intermediate stop and the costs involved, it is not likely at all.


www.airevents.com
25 Theginge : Crew layovers are not the major factor or cost. The main cost to doing Europe - Australia routes is the fact that the aircraft is away from base for
26 Rivet42 : This is exactly the issue. With competition from EK, CX, TG, SQ etc keeping yield levels down, it simply makes no sense to send a European heavy all
27 Aerokiwi : Given their antiquated and frankly sub-par in flight service, particularly against the likes of EK, SQ, CX, KE, TG, MH, QR and so on, I would suggest
28 Dairy : Fact is: The LH-Jumbo going out of FRA to SIN (and CGK) is back at home nearly 32 hours after departure. That makes not even 1 1/2 day. Why do you ta
29 Theginge : Well its not quite 3 days but a lot of aircraft for instance would go out Monday evening and be back Wednesday morning, so it goes across 3 days, rat
30 SQ325 : I agree with most previous comments, that LH won' t return to Australia in the near future. The only reason why they should/could is to offer a compet
31 Gemuser : I think it unlikely. The break point for long haul routes at airlines world wide, seems to be long enough to be operated, on a daily basis, comfortabl
32 Viscount724 : Many people, including myself, like's LH's style of reliable, consistent and usually on-time service. If that wasn't the case, they wouldn't have bro
33 Lufthansa : That and think of their frequent flyer base? Especially with all the recent acquisitions. All those people are going to want Miles and More status, a
34 Loran : Wasn't there a QF service from SYD/MEL stopping in DRW and then continuing to India? I was thinking of booking it not too long ago, but it didn't mat
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